CLARIFICATION

Avatar for firstglimpse
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Registered: 04-08-2003
CLARIFICATION
7
Thu, 02-02-2006 - 12:04pm

Many of you have showed concern I am being too soft. Below is a clarification of my thinking process. If any of you can make it through this & want to form arguments I will listen. Although, I may not act until H has been on stabilizers for 6w – as I’ve already told him I will not start marriage counseling because he is not out of this episode yet. He is on anti-psychotics, which allows him to live here, but his mind is not yet stable. His psychiatric appointment is on Feb 28th, which I am going to attend to hopefully give the doc enough information to make as precise of a diagnosis as possible (there are many sub-types of BP) so hopefully the correct meds are prescribed the first time.

The psychotherapist my H was seeing this past summer/fall, and when the EA began, told H he has an ‘empathy problem.’ I agree. This is one of the things I love about my H. He really cares about other people’s feelings. As with nearly anything you enjoy there are some negatives to it. Sure I would love to hear H be cold & distant with the OW, but it is not who he is so why should I expect it?

My H does not hate this OW and still cares for her. Should I not respect that? He has left her to rebuild with me. I do not want any contact from him to her, not matter the quality, because it allows the door to remain ajar & in essences is telling her, ‘I’m still here.’ I wanted H to end communication on his own terms, but because it caused lying and hiding I did sort of insist on this NC letter. This is a portion of what the email I had sent him…

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I can tell you this much, the ONLY WAY you're going to even start to make me believe you've ended all contact with XXXX is if you send the No Contact letter, CC'd to me. I wanted to believe your words when you said you'd ended it, but you're action is indicating otherwise.
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His tone of voice toward the OW is what his therapist suggested for him to use. I do think H was trying to let it die a natural death. But I know this woman well enough there is not a natural death. We met her about 14 yrs ago. She came to a bar as a friend’s date. She became drunk very quickly, ran out to her car & was bawling. So I went out and sat in the car with her as she told me how much she loved her date & how he didn’t love her as much and they would never get married, etc. etc. I sat with her for at least an hour. The next time we saw her was our wedding day as she came as a date with the same friend. (The last time I had heard her voice before all of this was on the radio, as she had a show, and she was congratulating my H & I on our marriage.) Anyway, she has never let this man go, even through his marriage & her own marriage. She continued to talk to him nearly every day. That is until she got involved with my H. (BTW: Her current H was married when she started her relationship with him – but he practices polyamory.)

If I am accepting H’s mental illness, should I not also accept hers? Every time H tried to end it with her, even while it was only an EA, she threatened suicide. Now – my MIL also suffered from BP and 9 yrs ago did commit suicide (ironically after starting Zoloft – the very drug that triggered H’s episode). She lived in HI at the time and had asked my H to come visit her. H knowing she was suicidal, dealing with it his entire life, decided to run away instead. He told her he needed to go to Chicago for work that week, he did go to Chicago, but it was a vacation to see his friend, reservations made after he told this to his mother. Since she died a few weeks later H has carried a lot of guilt on his shoulders. OW threatening suicide, having another death on his hands (in his mind) is too much for him to take. So whenever the OW threatened suicide he ran back to her.

Late November he did call and ask me to file D (Sun). I asked him if that is what he really wanted. He could not answer for a while. Then he said, ‘you’ll survive, she will not.’ This became his theme in words over the next few days. (BTW: this is after he called OW & tried to end it again.) This also was the time he became most suicidal – in fact, I was watching his phone log & even saw he called a stranger, whom I discovered belonged to a gun club.

Then one day he called to chit-chat (Wed), when he hung up he sincerely said, ‘I love you.’ It was such a shock to me I thought I misunderstood, but then he came over later in the day & as he left he said it again. Every conversation has ended that way ever since. I noticed he had stopped calling the OW the same day or even retrieving VM. Yet he was calling me all the time – that is until Friday afternoon.

He came over for our baby’s 1st birthday on Sat & he told me the OW showed up on his doorstep. He told her it was over between them & he was coming home. But yet, he didn’t know how to turn her away. Which of course upset me – but, again, I feel this needs to be on his own terms. Her flight was to leave on Sun., but when the time came she would not go. So he got her a hotel & forced her out. She then called & told H she was taking pills so he went to the hotel as she was popping pills – she did wait until he got there as she had only taken 3 when he walked in the door. He ended up sitting on a chair watching her all night long. In the morning he had her make plane reservations for that day and brought her back to his apt. He had an appointment with a counselor at the time she needed to leave so he set up a cab to come pick her up.

Around noon she borrowed his car (dented & scratched it) went to the liquor store. Around 1:45 she started to scream, ‘You’re going to go back your family and I’ll never hear from you again.’ Then she fell backwards, hit hear head hard against the wall (H apt had no furniture so they were sitting on the floor) and her eyes rolled up. H was able to get her to wake a little & he asked if she took pills. She said yes. He tried to get her to go throw up but she wouldn’t. So he finally called 911. The paramedics asked her if she took pills & she told them yes.

Tox-screen showed she never did take pills, but did drink a 5th of Vodka in less than 2 hrs & did have alcohol poisoning. She tried desperately to get out of the hospital & back to H apartment, but the hospital would not release her unless she had someone to care for her & H wouldn’t take her so she stayed there for 3 days at which time she was diagnosed as BP & in acute mania.

My H calls this ‘The Perfect Storm.’ Her life was crashing all at once & our lives had been through tremendous stress over the past 2.5 yrs (mc, death, breast lump, colicky baby, etc.) Then the Zoloft-triggered manic episode was pushing him into a delusional state when his friend had them talk for the 1st time through a 3-way call.

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I am NOT excusing my H behavior. I remind him all the time he has to take some responsibility & he does. He does not want to use his MI as an excuse, but it did play a large role. While in psychosis you cannot see consequences or control impulses. Many people are not diagnosed with BP until they have an antidepressant triggered manic episode. This type of episode does not mean this is what to expect in the future with this illness, the illness should reside to be more of what it was before (which he is functional through), but with meds will treat the illness – taking the peaks off of his ‘normal’ mood swings.

Bonnie




"Only when we are sick of our sickness shall we cease to be sick."

~ Lao-Tzu, from The Tao Te Cheng
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2005
Thu, 02-02-2006 - 3:09pm

Boy, you have certainly been put thru the ringer. Not only are you dealing with betrayel, you are also having to deal with not one, but two very emotionally unstable people. I have empathy for your H. My dad's second wife was diagnosed at Bi-Polar. She had tried numerous medications, and abused alcohol as well. She was a very bright, sweet person on her good times, but when things were bad, they were very bad. I don't know how my dad lived with it. It must have been so painful for him to see someone he loves in such turmoil. And also dealing with her lashing out at him. I expect that you also have some of these difficulties as well. I understand about the anti-depressent thing, my step-mom after being on numerous different medications over the years, (you know the old trial and error, see what works and what does not) finally seemed to be doing better. That is until my dad found her after she had shot herself. The group therapist (suicides) said that it is not unusual for people who are extremly depressed to commit suicide after they appear to be feeling better because then they finally have the energy to do something about their pain. It is so extremly sad. I am sorry for your H. You sound to me like a very bright, caring women. I understand that when you are dealing with someone with a true mental illness the typical rules don't apply. I think that only you can know what is best for your situation. I don't think you are being weak, I think that you are taking the tough road. I do not envy you your situation and I sincerely hope that things get better for both of you.

In regards to the OW, do you think that her actions are based on trying to manipulate your fragile husband into doing what she wants? If that is the case, people like that scare me to death. There is no telling what they are capable of doing. It is totally sick and wrong. Like you and your H don't have enough to deal with in your own relationship and here you have this emotional vampire sucking the life out of both of you. Does that sound to mean? I am sorry if it does.

Please keep posting and let us know how things are going. I am going to go back and try and find your previous postings as this is the first one that I have read. Good luck, I will be sending you positive thoughts.
Susan

Avatar for firstglimpse
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Registered: 04-08-2003
Thu, 02-02-2006 - 10:28pm

Susan .... you ask if the OW is manipulative. Very much so.

Sep 10th she decided to get a divorce b/c her H would not do invetro fertilization after 4 yrs of trying to get pg. Yet, late Sep 10 she calls H for the 1st time & they talk for 10 hrs straight (when H's psychiatric nurse heard about this she pretty much knew the OW was is mania too). Early in their EA she tells H, who does not want any more kids, she no longer needed children. (Yeah, she wanted mine. On Sep 11th she called this 'friend' of hers & my H and told him she could love another man's children.) H does not see this at all. I can see it. I am a woman who waited years to have children with H even though I was ready. I am a woman who mc'd at 12w & it took another 12w for the mc to complete. I am a woman & KNOW you do not simply change your mind regarding children, when you're ready to divorce your H b/c he will not try everything, in a course of a couple of weeks.

The OW was caring for her dying grandmother. She was nearing death when OW & H started talking. They met physically less than a week before her grandmother died. Now part of the deal for her taking care of her grandma is she could live in the house for free. Then after her passing the OW was to stay with the house until it was sold. From the very beginning she was already making plans on moving in with H after she sold the house.

In late Oct, the day after he was diagnosed with BP, H tried to call OW & tell her moving in together right now was a poor choice. The OW freaked out on H and said she had no place to live then as her aunts got together and decided she needed to move out in less than 2 weeks. H very concerned for the OW ended up calling her mother to go calm the OW down. Her mother told H that they never said that, it would take months for her to sell the house & they are expecting her to stay with the house.

H doesn't see it as manipulation, he thinks somehow she misunderstood something from her aunts.

The day after he told OW he did not want to live with her he called her again to break it off with her so we could start fixing us. She flew out the following day.

Everytime she come into town to see H she will not leave on the day of her flight. There was always some dramatic scene created which made it so he could not get her to the airport & her trip was always extended 1-5 days.

When he called to break it off with her she threatened suicide, again. This was a Friday. On Saturday H was catatonic & didn't talk to anyone or do anything all day. By Sunday OW had found the perfect solution ... she would move into H's apartment as a 'roommate' to help pay the rent & help us out financially. Then H and I could go to MC. OMG I still laugh thinking of my H asking if I would be okay with this.

Uhhhh-yeah. So less than 48 hrs before she's suicidal b/c H wants to come home, but now she can be just roommates???

Yip, when I said absolutely not, she threatened suicide again. That was the day H called & asked me to file D the following day. I told him I was not ready yet, if he was it was his decision & he could file the papers. He hung up on me.

This whole relationship was manipulated from the very beginning. Even the introduction of the two was manipulated - but it was manipulated by the 'friend' (psychologist) who actually has had a 20-yr grudge toward my H. The moment my H told me about the 3-way call I knew what was going on (I was out of town at the time).

Agggh, have I actually survived this far???

Bonnie




"Only when we are sick of our sickness shall we cease to be sick."

~ Lao-Tzu, from The Tao Te Cheng
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2005
Fri, 02-03-2006 - 1:23am

ughhh is right! I can't believe YOU still sound so sane. I at times feel like I am going to go over the deep end and I am only dealing with the "standard" affair issues with a relativly normal H (although in this instance ie the A, a selfish Ba..ard). Do you ever wonder if this is all to much drama and just want to exit the situation? I know that opens up a whole nother can of worms though especially if their are kids involved. At least if you stay involved in the marriage you have a least a litle bit of control over how the H is with the kids and can make sure the OW stays away from them. If they had to deal with her, in my humble opinion, THAT would be a total nightmare. She sounds like the kind of person that would either try to make you look bad in their eyes or get jelous (can't spell tonight) of the attention your H pays to them (because it appears that she has a great need to be the center of attention. She is like a loose cannon.

There does not appear to be an easy answer (obviously I know that nothing is easy in marital/family crisis) for your situation. Your damned if you do and, well you know the rest. I sure hope that your H can get the right meds so he can start making some rational decisions. I hope the OW can find another poor B to suck the life out of and leave you and your family along. Actually, that sounds harsh, sorry, I wouldn't wish her on anyone. Maybe just something like a nice long term commitment (hospital).

Anyway, I think your patience is commendable. I don't think I could do it. I am having a hard enough time just dealing with my stuff.

Please feel free to email me if you wan't. I really, really hope that things get better for you guys.
Best wishes and hugs.
Susan

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Registered: 09-19-2005
Fri, 02-03-2006 - 1:41am

(((Bonnie))) You're H is a very fortunate man to have such a loyal wife by his side. If there's any harsh tone in the previous messages, they were meant to protect you since we're getting a glimpse into your world by your posts.

We all have to make hard decisions in our lives. Not everyone will understand them but they don't have to. They aren't the ones living with them.

You're patient, compassionate and understanding - three traits I find very admirable. You are truley an amazing woman!

hannah

Avatar for firstglimpse
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Registered: 04-08-2003
Fri, 02-03-2006 - 10:58am

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Do you ever wonder if this is all to much drama and just want to exit the situation?
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He11 yes !!! Even before the A. But that is natural. These are the 5 stages of a loved one living with someone who has a depressive illness:

CONFUSION
as they usually undiagnosed at the time

SELF-DOUBT
as a spouse you believe they no longer care for you

DEMORALIZATION
loss of self-esteem, despite best efforts to help, acts as though everything is your fault.

RESENTMENT/ANGER
Without knowing the traits of illnes you blame the depressive.

ESCAPE!!!
Distance yourself either psychologically or physically from the depressive.

I would get so fed up I would imagine myself telling H 'I'm leaving you,' over and over again. I never really wanted to, but that what my mental escape. Although, I had distanced myself pyschologially & this is where some of our problems comes from.

I actually did almost leave him 8 yrs ago (less than 1 yr after MIL died). Now I understand, he was in mania then - due to the stress of losing his mother, but I didn't realize that until now. My sister & 4 kids were living with my mom at the time & the city I lived in had less than a 1% vacancy rate. She was getting married at the end of Jan & moving out - I was going to move in the following weekend. Two weeks before the wedding H became extremely suicidal & allowed me to hospitalize him. They put him on Depokote (hmmm - drug for bipolar) & Wellbutrin and things got a lot better. In fact we started to enter the best times of our 14yr relationship.

FYI: When MIL died her body was not discovered for 10 days in the heat of Hawaii. Dazed, confused and poor we stayed in her house - BIG MISTAKE. Plus, it was up to us to clean up. Now you've seen TV shows that involve decaying bodies, they do not even come close to describing the mess that is left behind. Add that into a small community (we were not even in Kauai for 24 hrs before everyone knew we were there) it was a horrifying experience. Then to make it your own mother (while you yourself suffers from BP) I cannot even imagine the pain my H felt. There was one TV show (CSI) that sort of explained the how bad the ordor can get. The odor is made of proteins (like a skunks spray) and since our bodies are made of proteins the odor sticks to you. We didn't realize this at the time & couldn't understand when we went out to eat we would be seated far from other patrons, until one time a door was opened near us & a gust of wind pushed the odor on my H to my nose did I realize how bad we stunk. I feel so bad for the people who had to sit next to us on the airplane. To this day I can barely breath if I'm near raw meat. But the ordor was actually simple compared to the material left behind.

Anyway, I believe that was the trigger to H's mania 8 yrs ago. It was confusing & hurtful and I was ready to make my escape.

As for now, I have decided to give H 1 year on meds before making any real decisions if I stay or go.

Yes, what you've described are part of the arguments for my staying. If we live together I know how his meds are working, what type of mood he's in, how much time he can spend with our children. (BTW: My H has never spent more than 2-3 hrs alone with our kids before.) Yes, I do not want that OW to even see my children, let alone have any influence on them. Her morals & ideas in life are not something I would like my children to learn from her.

I do realize there may come a time when I do have to leave. I keep a journal regarding H & time spent with kids. I have hospital records, records of him abondoning us - trying to move to SFO - not giving us any money (he didn't have any to give), etc. I have them locked up by key. I believe if we were to D I would get full custody.

H & I were both raised w/o a father & we know how painful that can be. The reason H is focused on seeking treatment & has not actually died in this episode is with the knowledge our children need a father. Every professional who has dealt w/H in this episode are surprised he is alive. Both of us have been told many times the majority of people in his condition would have ended up in jail or dead. Professionals are surprised by how well H has actually survived this. They are in awe of him. That is why I'm so happy I'm attending my support group as I didn't realize how amazing his progress is until it was pointed out to me by others who deal with this illness.

With his determination & acceptance of this illness now I do believe we'll make a long prosperous life together. Though, I'm not stupid & realize I need to create/keep my backup in case an 'escape' has to be real.

Bonnie




"Only when we are sick of our sickness shall we cease to be sick."

~ Lao-Tzu, from The Tao Te Cheng
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-30-2005
Fri, 02-03-2006 - 11:26am

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With his determination & acceptance of this illness now I do believe we'll make a long prosperous life together. Though, I'm not stupid & realize I need to create/keep my backup in case an 'escape' has to be real.

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I hope that you don't think that I thought you were stupid. That is the last thing that I would feel about you. I think that you are amazingly strong and resilient. I think if anyone has a chance of making it through this and having a long prosperous marriage it is you. I am actually in awe of you un-selfishnes.

Let me know how things are going. Look forward to hearing from you.
Susan

Avatar for firstglimpse
iVillage Member
Registered: 04-08-2003
Fri, 02-03-2006 - 12:12pm

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I hope that you don't think that I thought you were stupid.
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Oh no, I didn't think that - just have to remind myself, no matter how elated I become in our relationship it is not always going to be as such & his illness could always take him into a place I (or our children) cannot live. It's my reality.

Bonnie




"Only when we are sick of our sickness shall we cease to be sick."

~ Lao-Tzu, from The Tao Te Cheng