the call

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-02-2003
the call
2
Thu, 08-12-2004 - 7:42am
We did not get to talk yesterday as his Xwife dropped his daughter off and I had to do something later. We will talk this afternoon

I keep thinking how incredibly difficult this is for both of us. I guess I still hold out this slim chance that we will get back together. This past weekend was hard because so much of what had happened was miscommunication-- talking once a day on the phone and responding to what you thought was going on. We both realized that. We had not seen each other in 2 years. So much has changed for both of us. Seeing his house for the first time made me realize what he had gone through and how lonely he was. He was living in the barn/apt of his former house that they had to sell. All his stuff was crammed into it.

His divorce was not easy and not something he wanted. He is still very anger at his Xwife at this point. She told him how worthless he was and that he made her life miserable. He is already dating someone and it apears serious. He went away with her for a week. HIs 17 yo son has not been around this summer and that has not helped much. He sees is 13 yo daughter once a week.

I am not sure what he is thinking or feeling. He told me that he wanted to work at the friendship and as long as I did not tell him not to call he would call. He has called 4 of the last 5 days and is trying to be the friend he so wants to be. The conversations are nice and easy in some ways and very supportive. It makes no sense-- except that he felt guilty for not being there for me like I was for him.

So now I am left with the choice-- to be friends or not. I think I have come around to most people's view-- the friendship is too hard right now. I don't want to be just friends. I want it all. I guess I was just fooling myself-- thinking if I am hanging around here he will remember what made our relationship so important. I think the not knowing why he decided to bail is what is so hard. He is the one who believed in us so much and it is just hard to see this go without ever really giving it a chance. I do not want to play games with him- it is too much wasted energy.

I guess I am thinking of telling him I want it all or nothing. That the friendship thing is too hard for me. If he is willing to give us a chance and see if it would work then that is great and I would be willing to fly down once a week for the next few weeks to see if we can work it out...just hanging out and re-adjusting to our new situations and seeing if we can be together...if not then I need to get on with my own life and figure out how to be happy without him in it.

My guess is- he will say he wants to be friends but doesn't think hanging out will change anything between us. He will say he will be there whenever I need him as a friend but can't be more-- that is my guess. He is going to call this afternoon when I get off work.

tb

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-08-2004
In reply to: tb1004
Thu, 08-12-2004 - 10:56am
Okay, in my experience (and that of countless friends), when a relationship ends and one person poses the ultimatum "I want all or nothing," it's nothing, every time. If you back someone into a corner that way, it seems to be their only choice. This makes sense, really - you're with someone for weeks, months, even years before you're at a place where you're pretty sure this is the person you want to spend time with exclusively, you can't expect someone to jump to that conclusion immediately, especially if the relationship was troubled. So, if you make them choose, they'll choose to reject you every time. If they chose to end the relationship with you once, they'll keep making and keep defending that choice.

Now, you have a long and troubled history with this man. And, honestly, I've gotten some tough love on this board, so I'd like to share the same - he doesn't sound like much of a prince to me. He cheated on his wife. Happy marriage or not, affairs are a terrible betrayal. And it sounds like this wasn't a short, transitional affair, as he came to realize that he had to get out of the marriage - he carried on a long-term, basically indefinite affair. Even when it wasn't physical, he retained a long-term emotional connection with someone not his wife. Is it true "once a cheater, always a cheater"? I'm not sure, but with that kind of long-term adultery it seems pretty likely. It's funny that you can empathize with him, feeling hurt by his awful ex-wife who probably went through years of being neglected and betrayed and may finally have acted out on that. And it always really surprises me when women identify with the man here - yes, you care for him, but you're a woman, looking to take his ex-wife's place here, why can't you identify with her and wonder if/when he'll be treating you the same? He seems sullen and not especially self-aware, if he's moping and feeling sorry for himself after his marriage ended, when he himself betrayed the marriage long ago. Is this someone who is really worth your time? You two haven't been together as adults, right, it's been like 20 years since you were actually together as a couple? Having an affair together can be romantic, dreamy, full of passion and frustrated longing and very dramatic. Being together every day, shopping for groceries and talking about his athlete's foot, that is something else entirely. Do you have a good basis for imagining what your life would be like together? Can you plug in demonstrable facts about his behavior and his attitudes to predict what life would really be like, or are you coasting on a wave of senseless feeling? If you do the hard work to think about it, you may come to realize that you're letting some misguided emotions lead you down a path you probably shouldn't choose.

He's also seeing someone else right now, so he is (once again) emotionally unavailable to you. Now, for you - why do you choose to be involved with an emotionally unavailable man? There's definitely something about him that has you hooked in, has you practically addicted to him, and you need to explore what that is. Is it just the challenge, just the fact that he's been unavailable for so long that you want to conquer him and "win"? When we have an intense need for a seemingly impossible relationship, that tends to say more about us than about the relationship, you should consider exploring why you want this, and whether it is fear and low self-esteem that leads you to believe you can't start fresh with a loving partner who is available to you. Frankly, it sounds to me like you weren't that enthusiastic about being with him when he asked (hence, your plan to remain married for *5 years* while you got your life in order), but now you're outraged that he has rejected you - this may all be about pride, and you'd hate to end your marriage and chain yourself to someone who is not Prince Charming just to ease your pride and prove that you can do it.

Should you be friends with him? No way. You have a long and troubled history together. That's too intense, too much, and too emotionally disruptive, for a casual friendship. There will always be, at least on your side, lingering feelings and attraction, which makes it virtually impossible to be friends. What "friendship" will do for you is create this agonizing limbo where you can't help but hope that he's being thoughtful and considerate and affectionate because he really still loves you and wants to try again. It will hurt you on a daily basis and prevent you from moving forward in your life and making the best decisions for you.

I know there's this common belief that, if you just hang out together and he gets to see you up close and personal, he'll realize how much he really cares for you and choose you. In my experience, it's always been the exact opposite. We're imaginative people, as a species, preoccupied by fantasy and strongly motivated by longing. Look, I never wanted to see or talk to my ex again when I left. When he contacted me 3 months later, after no contact at all, I was actually pretty receptive to talking with him, and started dreaming/fantasizing about him having changed and me being able to take him back. Why, what changed? Well, he didn't do a thing. My own thoughts and longings supplied all of that receptiveness to him, there's no other reason for it. It worked the same when we broke up the first time, he told me outright that he missed me so much that he couldn't take it any more and needed to be with me, that he'd thought about and dreamed about me all the time after we broke up, that it just kept getting worse rather than better. That is, what works best (if it works at all) is no contact, he can't help but think what he misses by not having you in his life and has to ponder whether he wants to continue without you. You want him to realize he wants to be with you. That may never happen. But if it's going to, it's going to happen because you're not around and he recognizes what he's missing.

Friendship is a great thing, but it's not a project, not some sort of work release program. It shouldn't be hard, and it shouldn't make you cry. Being with an ex while you still love him makes it just that, it is incredibly disruptive and painful, and absolutely the last thing you need now. He wants to be friends for his own reasons (possibly, as some have suggested to me, because of his ego, he wants to feel like less of a jerk, because his ex wife thinks he's a loser, you're starting to think he's a loser, he wants to prove he's a good guy). You need to look out for you, and friendship is not a good idea for you. You may never be able to be friends with this guy. Is it sad that he'll be out of your life, after the connection you had? Absolutely, but he chose not to have you in his life when you offered, those are the consequences, and you will survive. Your life will probably be much happier once you've exorcised the ghost of this troubled love.

So, don't tell him "all or nothing," he'll pick nothing and you'll be rejected again. Just say with dignity that, given your history and lingering feelings, friendship is too awkward and painful at the moment, but you'll get in touch with him some day if/when you're ready for friendship. As has been pointed out to me - he knows what you want, what your agenda is, and if he was on the same page he'd be responding. He's not responding because that's not what he wants, and "all or nothing" will just provoke another rejection. Instead, you do the rejecting - you don't want a half-a--ed friendship with someone who's toyed with your heart for years, you'll do quite fine on your own.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-26-2004
In reply to: tb1004
Thu, 08-12-2004 - 8:25pm
I also agree that friendship isn't the best idea right now. Maybe in the future when you've healed and moved on--but I was reading an article on MarsVenus.com that said being friends with an ex can impede the healing process and make it difficult for you to pursue new (and hopefully better!) relationships.

He sounds like he still needs to heal from his divorce and probably had no business getting involved with you when he still had issues to deal with. You need to concentrate on YOU--on healing yourself and moving forward. I know you probably want to mature and everything about this, but I would give yourself a good deal of time and space before re-establishing any kind of relationship with this guy.