Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind

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Registered: 04-29-2003
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
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Thu, 03-10-2005 - 10:53am

Does anyone ever wish they had never met the person they are now struggling to get over?

I found myself thinking that this morning. How much easier and better life would be right now if I had never had this great relationship with all kinds of promise go down the tubes for reasons I have absolutely no control over. The grief and sadness is overwhelming at times!

I wish I could erase my memories of him, like Clementine does in Eternal Sunshine. Or have someone use one of those flash memory eraser thingies from Men in Black on me.

I am probably feeling bad today because my ex was at a church function I went to last night. We didn't speak to each other; in fact we didn't acknowledge each other's presence. I'm not even sure he saw me.

How a relationship can go from close, affirming, supportive, mutual to *nothing*--to "you don't even exist to me"--is still something I can't get my head around.

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Avatar for northwestwanderer
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Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 03-10-2005 - 7:40pm

FWIW, it sounds like you had a healthy attitude about this r'ship and that things were progressing in a way that it was not unreasonable for you to think that this had long-term possibilities.

But...even doing everything right doesn't ensure that the two of you are going to turn out to be right for each other. I know it's kind of a zen concept (not even sure if zen is the right word, but it's one of those "it is as it is" type of things), but sometimes things just aren't meant to be, and there's nothing you can do about it. That doesn't mean having it end doesn't hurt...it hurts like heck!...but ultimately I hope that you'll be able to find peace about it. I'm in not a dissimilar situation...an LDR that never become local, and yes, I'm angry and hurt that he wasn't willing to give us the chance to even find out if we could work (it ended because I couldn't stand the limbo any more), but I'm also doing my best to focus on accepting that if we were right for each other, it would have happened.

Sheri

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Registered: 02-01-2005
Thu, 03-10-2005 - 9:02pm

Course11

I went to a Jill Scott concert last night (who, btw, is AMAZING...and if you haven't heard of her and are into soul/r&b you should IMMEDIATELY get yourself some of her music) and it was one of the most love-filled, positive and uplifting experiences I've had in a loooooonng while. Aside from sharing her amazing music, which is all about love in one way or another, she spoke to us some of the following words (that I will do my best to paraphrase) which really struck home for me:

Basically, we've all been through some things, difficult things, hurtful things, in our search for THAT love. We've ended up with men and women who we've tried so hard for, only to have it all fall apart. But, rather than run away from the pain we should embrace it...because it's the hurt that makes us grow, that gives us the ability to love deeper, more profoundly. To appreciate. And as we embrace the pain, accept it, we realize that all the why's and wherefore's don't really matter anymore...you realize that the person you were with just wasn't *your* man...wasn't *your* woman...whatever. And it really doesn't matter anymore, because the point...THE POINT...is that you loved. And loved well.

Oh, Course11, I know how much you hurt...how confused you are...how much you love. But it's okay, it really is. Or, at least, it will be. Now go find some Jill Scott, turn up the tunes, and let her hope wash over you....I promise you, it's infectious and cathartic. (I have "Cross my mind" playing over and over again...)




Edited 3/10/2005 9:08 pm ET ET by eeyore_2436
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Registered: 01-30-2004
Thu, 03-10-2005 - 10:04pm
I HAVE wished I had never met a few of my exes before when I was going through the break-ups!!
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Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 03-11-2005 - 10:02am

Well..just general data......whatever it is that you consider significant steps of progress in a relationship.....such as meeting family......it's dangerous to assume that the other person shares that association or definition.

I've gone about it like this for almost 9 years...and it's never failed. I did it the opposite way for 14 and it never succeeded! Whatever is "significant steps" to me.....be it sex, meeting parents, a key to the house....we don't do that because I won't engage in it....until what I "expect" is in 100% concrete evidence before me.

Originally when someone told me to adopt this approach....I was appalled and terrified simultaneously. Because in the previous thinking pattern.....I was doing these things "to get the commitment to result". (again, we're talking about me - not you) So they said "okay, what are these significant steps that you consider of merit and indicating there is "more" now involved in terms of involvement/commitment/obligation/expectation."

Well.....about the time I had talked about 25 minutes....she said "whoa......that's is WAY TOO MANY significant steps. You've got way too much of your identity and security and future tied up in a relationship. YOu've got so many things that you can't do 'until' - there is no way for you to enjoy other people at all. No wonder you can't see waht i"m saying without freaking out. With what you've got as significant steps - you could do aything but going on supervised visitation with them - until they put a ring on your finger."

From that, my eyes did open a little...and I saw some of what she meant. She suggested first that anything someone asked me to do with them....I had a choice. I could either "assume" based on our level of interaction that this was or wasn't signfiicant TO THEM......what isn't significant, they'd do with anybody. Or, I'd have to ask, not interrogate, does this have any significant meaning to you - us doing this? She said try that for 3 months and get back with her.

I did that.....that assuming thing was WAY TOO codependently familiar for me to do it...and when you're breaking a habit that's been on high flame...you generally need to turn OFF the stove, you haven't yet found a mid-range heat that you're comfortable with. So i didn't assume....ironically enough I had my first chance to utilize her suggestion in a couple of weeks. The guy I was seeing asked if I wanted to go to his family's for Easter lunch. Had it been 3 weeks earlier, as we'd been seeing each other 4 months at that point, I'd have "assumed" this as a significant step...it that it meant something to him in regard to his commitment to me. And I could have seen me running down that path at what is a world-class sprint pace.

But this time, no assumption, I asked "does me going there signify anything to you about us dating in terms of commitment or involvement?" Very simple question and if put casually without alot of sweat, and pacing on your part - is generally well received. He looked at me a second and said 'well, I assume itmeans you want a great lunch, because man, can my mom cook!"

I got there, and thank GOD I didn't run down assumption alley prior to it......when I got there, his brother and girlfriend were there, several other cousins and relatives....and HIS EX EX EX GIRLFRIEND. Apparently his first girlfriend out of college was also the daughter of a family friend, and she had been close to the family all her life, and still is. They were casual and cordial and comfortable together......and I sat there almost like watching a lab experiment going "oh my God, had I run down assumption alley thinking what this meant, and walked in here and found this, I'd have made a total a$$ out of myself after we got in the car to take me home!" I can see it now - I'd have been in shock, in tears, accusatory - based on expectation that he was taking me home because I was special, to find "her" (the threat, the villan!) in the room and make all sorts of assumptions about "why they had her there"....oh, today it's hilarous...but back then it was just mind-boggling becuase I really could "see" me doing what it was I knew I'd have done.

So 9 months later......when due to situations that were required.....him meeting my mother was inevitable. I told him that he'd be meeting my mother, this wasn't a social visit and he knew it......and his response showed that men do "pick up on things"....he said "okay, and I'm willing to bet that this is significant to you." You betcha....not because my mother and I get along...but because the opposite is true. And until I really stepped into equality with her by my choice...."my mother" was the very topic I did not bring up, discuss, or even act like she existed - in any relationship. And as a result of shoving someome in the closet that's integrally involved, in those past relationships that would really backfire. I'd have dismissed and ignored that she existed or that I had a problem with her.......and they'd meet by accident and she'd be sickeningly sweet...she was waiting to turn on them next time. They'd jump me going "why didn't you tell me your mother was so nice, why do you always avoid this topic." And then I had another "man" that I had to prove the point to - my momm's not really that crazy about me.

With this guy.....I never had that issue arise, and I had moved past "proving points to anybody at my expense." But as a result of this new approach, with his realizing that this was significant to me in a stressful way.......we've never had the issue arise about "why don't I like her, or why doesn't he like me"....in the last 5 years. in fact, he's loved being a fly on the wall as I've developed my "style" of people interaction.......he met me when I was newly mature emotionally and had yet to "develop" a style of interaction and involvement with others.

So, that's something to consider....ask if they think it is significant before you assume that it is. And, the flip side is...if something is "significant to you" - such as meeting your parents....don't have him do it until the commitent is there. After all, you're not asking their permission to date him....you're showing him off as being the man in your life. It's not a permission moment.......it's a celebration moment.

Again.....based on teh facts in your previous posts.......you knew he hadn't been in a relationship in 5 years. I'd ALWAYS go from the bottom - so that upwards is a delightful surprise....rather than start at the top and find that a downward slide is a serious shock.

And I'd illustrate that with my life and this wasn't fun to face...but it's true. From 17 to 35 I was married to 4 different people. I spent probably about 9 months without a partner during that entire time. In the periods where I didn't have a significant other to live with....my parents helped me pay my bills to live "independently" from them....as the mistakes and the results of them early at 17-20 were extremely limiting factors at that time. I had a child, I had a high school education, I lived in an extremely economically deprived small town, I was on the run from the ex and so I couldn't risk much travel, there was constant gun carrying, and police protection...in short.....just a mess. At 33, while in the last marriage on its final legs...in the course of counseling for the family as a result of drug rehab...the ex made a statement that whether designed just to wound or not, was true. HE said he had always had reservations about marrying me becuase I left every man I was ever with, he didn't want to be "added to my list of failures". Wow, that stung, especially in light of the reality of our situation overall. But while it stung...I assessed the facts and he was absolutely right. I left every relationship when my "feelings" of entitlement were spurred into action. And I never left without a replacement.....or an option to survival that wasn't self-sufficient.

That said tons about how I viewed myself at the fundamental core. My original thought when sobering up and prior to leaving was "i'll leave him and NEVER be in another relationship because I don't get how to do this stuff." And that is a position I could have adopted -and probably not stuck with forever - but in light of all the chaos and destruction my alliances had cost me and my family over the years....I think I could have easily "never married" again and maybe just lived with someone - maybe not, you can't predict a path you didn't walk. I didn't mind my heart getting hurt...but I sure wasn't about to cause another police riot, or bankruptcy, or failure of significant "someone rescue me" potential - and that was so my style.

So when I did leave at 35 and get the divorce...I decided not to decide about a relationship with someone else - but I committed to tthe relationship with me. It's accurate that the relationship you have with yourself is the outline by which you establish a relationship wiht other people. If you're very attuned and aware and accepting of yourself at core levels....then you're doing to seek that depth of knowledge and acceptance of the person in your life. If you're aware ofwhat you need and want at the one foot deep level...that is all the depth you're going to explore in a new partner and make a decision about your future based on that. Me realizing it from that analogy learned from kayaking on the water....made it very easy to commit to myself and building that relationship. It's much easier to paddle in deep water - than shallow! But, it's much less risky to paddle in shallow than deep. Because if you paddle in shallow water and get out whenever you've "had enough" of swimming or paddling - then you don't have much to rescue. However.....most people approach a relationship like they do a stream that flows into a lake. They explore themselves at the one foot level - so they explore the partner at the one foot depth.....and as they find waht feels good and gratifying they commit. They paddle together down the stream and into a deep lake. High risk. Now you've got two people who don't know what skills, characteristics, traits and values the other possesses - out in a deep lake with no bank for miles on either side.......when headwinds and waves come into the picture which you can't predict or control....all you can do is "hope" that your partner is value oriented, honest, loyal, and level headed. Having been out in deep water...I'd never go out with someone else "hoping" for that. I'd have to know they were that - before going out there with them. My values would require me to try to rescue them if they weren't that...and I will not drown on account of someone else's lack of character or values!

Today, I can say that I'm truly independent and have been for 9 years. I've been in a LD FWB type thing - for almost 5. And that is my preference....and as he said earlier this year..."you know, I really admire and respect you because you know what you really want and need and like. But you are a risk taker, because any man looking at you being single for 9 years at 42, with an FWB for 5 of it, is going to know that either you don't want alot of daily interaction and comingled involvement, or else that you're incapable of it and this is all that works."

That's very true.....people that aren't "in" relationships - don't want them. And it's an adjustment that is not immediate becuase it involves "give"...not just take.

So....look at the common denominator, that's you. In every relationship, situation and circumstance in your life - you're the common element. You're saying that you're very successful in business, kudos! And what is confusing to lots of people is that someone is "good in business" aspects of life - yet nowhere else do they succeed. That's because the method they use - because success is a method - in succeeding in business - they have it compartmentalized as an approach to the professional realm. Nowhere else do they use that reasoning pattern, assessment technique, and self-disciplined and responsible approach. Quite likely, upon getting to know themselves better without judgement of self (you'll never open up to you if you have a big light and a whip in your hand going "come out you lousy relationship haver you!)....they'd find that they greatly resent having to utilize that factual assessment, goal focus, self-disciplined, communicative, and to some degree CYA approach in business. They resent it.....and therefore in no other aspect of life do they utilize it. They think that it is too hard, too difficult, that the gratification is non-existent or rarely existent (very true) and that the success they achieve is very "hard o reach"....and if that goes on long enough at the subliminal level - you'll stagnant in the professional realm and you won't move up any further and you'll find it harder to rotate in the vortex of your present positioning.

So, one thing is certain....you're attracted to/attractive to unavailable men. I'd say factual review of what is before you without assumption or thier justification is necessary in all cases. If you see someone who has not been in a realtionship for a long time - they either don't really want an interactive and comingled environment (there's no shortage of people out there for it).......or they're incapable of maintaining that type of equality based, mutually beneficial arrangement. But don't buy into "they're looking for just the right soulmate"...that's just the justification that allows people to run into "he wants ME"...when he doesn't know you at all, not really - adn vice versa. Well, here's the most condensed way to put it......look at yourself and why aren't you in a relationship? If you view it as "the right person hasn't come along yet" - you'd be lying to yourself - obviously you thought these two guys were potentially the right noes. Or is it because you keep making incorrect character judgements and assesments of the people you involve with? If so change the pattern of evaluation and assessment.

But also KNOW (not just assume) that people out there not in a daily interactive relationship for some significant period of time - even if they want one - are going to have a LONG period of adjustment with a slow break in on that type of interaction and involvement and comingled risk.

The longer a person is single, and remains in complete control of their destiny - and everything they make it theirs to use as they see fit, and their times is theirs to utilize as they desire, and everything they wish to pursue has been done because of totally personal choice based on their prioritizations, goals and needs....you can stand back from that and get an excellent view without their input....of who they are at the core.

And if what you see them doing in there "by themselves" you disagree with, or are concerned about....don't involve. They don't stop doing that when you walk in the door...and if their habit is to open the door, sit down and don't speak for two hours.....you can bet that it'll be many a silent dinner that youhave - candles or not - while they sit in front of the TV eating...while you sit there wondering "why they aren't talking to you."

Also......what did you "hear" in your head...when the guy said "make your decision about moving without me in mind." What did you hear? Because often waht we hear...is not what is said. Naturally, we respond to what we hear - a combination of our own self-perception inflection and our needs/expectations in the mix. So if what you responded to wasn't just the words he said.....what did you hear when he said them? That's critical....separating those things could change your world in every regard in 30 days or less......and if you adopt it as a mandate to respond only to what is said as in teh facts and words.....it'll change your world significantly for a lifetime.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

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Registered: 04-29-2003
Tue, 03-22-2005 - 1:49pm

I just read your response...I've been out of the country on vacation with a girlfriend (a very therapeutic vacation, by the way!).

Our respective life experiences have been very different, and if I were to boil down what you've said here, it would be "don't make assumptions about the other person just because what they are saying/doing would be significant if you were saying/doing it." Which is something you've been saying to me since I started posting here about my breakup.

This is one piece of advice that I appreciate and will put to use going forward. Where we diverge, I think, is in the extent to which an Ayn Rand approach to relationships feels appropriate to me. You've offered some great nuggets around applying business principles and logic and reasoning to relationships, which seem similar to what I read in Atlas Shrugged. I've never really liked Rand's writing, though, because I feel like there was truly no room for deep emotion, compassion, and commitment in her characters' relationships. In the end, they seemed too transactional, too selfish, too temporary. In the end, in Ayn Rand's world, the only commitments worth making are to oneself. While taking care of oneself is important, I don't believe relationships should begin and end there. That flies in the face of my faith and the kind of mutually giving relationships I want to have in my life.

I will give some thought to the question of why I've been in relationships with unavailable men. Are *two* such relationships a pattern or a fluke? I don't know.

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Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 03-22-2005 - 1:58pm

While lots of people think I"m a "Rand fan" - the truth is I hadn't read anything by her until a year ago. I'd suggest reading by Rand "The Virtue of Selfishness" - that is less an analogy of personality types...and more of a pervasive review of society in general.

That's a great place of jump off into "individuality", in alot of ways.

If there is no "complete you" - there is nothing you have to offer to the world.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

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