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| Thu, 05-26-2005 - 10:06am |
ARTIST,
I've been wondering how you're doing. I miss your posts and your insights. You said you might start T... how's that going?
Me: Right after I announced "no friendship" with xMM we promptly had a long conversation that dragged me down to low levels and made me feel horrible in the aftermath (not even worth going into).
I'm currently at LC (limited contact - since we work together) again and haven't talked to him for a couple days. I am feeling much better today. I'm making an appt with a T for next week since I think pulling away is going to be much harder than I imagined and I also truly want to clear up my issues.
xMM and I did not talk that much before I started LC so I thought this would be pretty easy. I felt like I had already ended it in my mind.
However, I really have been on a rollercoaster for the last couple of days. I am actually getting panic attacks like "I CAN"T do this!!" then after about 5 mins it will be better and I feel I *can* do this again. I am just on the edge of crying throughout the day - and not just about xMM... almost anything can send me into a tail spin since I feel like my emotions are on the surface. I think it will get better - that conversation was a bad decision obviously.
Okay, on to the day and may it be a good one!!
WIP

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Hi WIP!
I am so sorry - I almost missed your post all together and I would so like to "talk" to you more. It has been very difficult for me to get into lengthy responses lately. Like you - I operate a home based business except in my case my partner is my DH! - very limited computer time privacy....
I have been spending more time at the All Sides Board lately. I am finding it very difficult to continually read all the "wailing" that goes on here on the Ending Board. Don't get me wrong - I have my many moments of self pity, grieving the loss of the feel-good, escapist "FIX" that my A provided. I am offering the following links to my most recent posts so you can catch up on more of my story (if you're really up for hearing more about poor, little, old me -LOL)
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-ivallsides&msg=310.62
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-ivallsides&msg=310.71
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-ivallsides&msg=310.73
Anyhow - I've been having my ups and downs but knowing that I am finally doing the RIGHT THING is helping me stay on track. If you find time to read the above posts you will understand that the most difficult part of my ending issues are sex related (or I should say-lack therof). If I could only adjust to my low libido spouse....SIGH...now that is something I would love to talk some more about....
ARTIST
I just had a chance to read over my previous (too quick) response. I realize it was all about ME - and then I thought -what else is new lately? I have been spending so much of the last 2 months "navel gazing" and reading and responding on these boards. Yes,I have started with therapy - only one visit so far - but it was a "doozy". I am one of those people who HATE talking about themselves - when I go out to meet with my sisters or girlfriends I am the one who asks all the questions and listens with the open mind. This time it was my turn o do the talking. I t was like the blind leading the blind - ME unable to even FEEL my feelings let alone try and tak about them. Somehow I expected more probing to get me going but with a bit of prompting here and there I finally got the floodgates started. I felt embararrassed when I stopped to cry. It seems that I really am a total control freak.
I had a scheduling problem last week so I missed my 2nd session - not a good thing in retrospect - I had a very difficult week, feeling sorry for myself. My DH was very busy and unavailable and I felt very lonely and missed my XMM intensely. A big "let down" for me after cruising through my first 6 weeks of NC - well more like "LC".
I don't like to come here and talk when I am "down" - wen I am depressed I know that it is temporary and will pass. I find focussing on the negative energy very self-defeating. Anyway ENOUGH about ME...... Do you want to talk about your conversation with your XMM?
You mentioned that <<<<>>>
Maybe it is worth going into. I would like to hear more about it if you feel able to share. I have had a few "heart to hearts" with my XMM during the past 2 months. We BOTH agree that our A is over and are working to set appropriate boundaries for our intermittant contact. Each time we talked it was gut wrenching but each converation has furthered my ability to detach and strengthen my emerging new perspective of him in my life as my unfortunate mistake that catapulted me out of my self-imposed prison of futile coping strategies. ***BUT**** I also know that any contact is a #$%&ing FINE LINE - I am limiting it as much as I possibly can although my "cold turkey" approach has kind of evolved into a cool bird that keeps getting re-heated once in while until it eventually just dries up and gets tossed in the compost.
ARTIST
Edited 5/31/2005 1:49 pm ET ET by frustratedartist
Hi ARTIST,
I'm happy to see your posts over on All Sides - you seem to be hanging in there well. I think it's actually nice to see more OW/MW over there... so many BS that I think the debate is slightly one-sided at times.
Your posts are very detailed so I do feel like I'm completely caught up. I think you're about where I am... or maybe a little beyond. The part where you say "I am now realizing that I may not even comprehend the meaning and experience of true intimacy." is right on.
If you had asked me 6 months ago I would have sworn I didn't have intimacy issues... but the facts (and all these articles hanging around here) can't be wrong. It does seem that I've been running from "real intimacy" and trying to find it in an AP that is emotionally unavailable. I won't lie, that revelation is quite confusing on the surface.
At this age I never thought I'd actually have to ask "What is true intimacy?" (and the associated question "What is love if it's not passionate like with xMM?").
Anyway, after reading some more I am slowly starting to see the light and it is feeling less personal (in a good way... I don't feel quite as wounded).
I have had 2 lengthy conversations with xMM. The first one I posted about was emotional and me realizing how truly unavailable emotionally he is (if you'd like to read about us... we're covered in the article "Co-dependent and Addictive Relationships" below - this perfectly describes me and xMM to a T). This conversation was the "follow up" to my quick break up conversation the day before. I got quite frustrated with him that we're at "GAME OVER" and he still can't even say the simple words "I will miss you." I was just so angry that his walls are so high that even giving a tiny bit of himself was too much - and I just had to let him know this last time.
The second conversation we had was the "patch up" (notice I didn't say "make up" since it wasn't festive...). It was more about setting our boundaries like you and your xMM are doing. This is going to be a tough road and our work relationship is already suffering. I think we're not sure when we can call each other (re: work) and when we can't. He is backing way off for now since he's not sure. I am not to the point of indifference yet and so I am still emotionally charged and not wanting to call him (to show him I'm sincere about "limited contact"). Gosh, this part is the hard part and I haven't even had to see him in person yet.
On H... he and I are doing fairly well. I've made a bigger effort and he is responding. I think if I can get xMM out of my emotional radar, H and I will be okay (I see a T on Thursday too... so I can start to sort out my issues).
Glad you're doing well... I'll watch for your posts on All Sides. WIP
Artist-I have a lot of similar issues with my DH. He has no interest in sex which is one of the reasons I got into the A. He has medical problems and although we are trying to work on our marriage it is tough. I know he is trying but I am afraid I just have to accept the fact that I will never have a fulfilling sex life again. It makes me feel so unhappy like I should be satisfied because in other ways he is a great guy but I am struggling with this. Also I think he knows about XMM he makes comments but when I seriously ask if he wants to talk he says he dosen't want to know. I have told him I got too close emotionally to XMM and want to have him (DH)for my best friend instead of some other guy. How do you find some kind of peace with this?
WIP-I know what you mean about the "emotional" conversations. Everytime I think I have made it and XMM calls to talk about work it ends up going somewhere else and even though I think I am ok at the time it affects me for days. Just Friday I ended up talking to him for 90 minutes and he told me everything I had ever wanted to hear from him but didn't. How much he misses me, how I have a place in his heart, How he dosen't want to lose me, blah, blah, blah is all it really is and it ruined my weekend. I tried to put it out of my head but it makes me wish for him. It seems he feels a lot like I do, he even got mad saying "I'm not even supposed to be talking to you" so I have resolved to avoid him like the plague from now on. He said he would come up here today cuz he had a day off and of oourse he didn't even call. He would never put himself out for me and if I was to ask he would give me the same old "it's wrong" line. I know it is for the best and I can't argue that but hello to me, when am I going to stand up for myself?
Anyways I always enjoy both of your posts and just wanted to vent a little. Thanks for letting me share.....kc
istmeck writes: <<<>>>
There are ways to have a fullfilling sex life even if there is no actual penis-vaginal intercourse. I don't know why your husband has no interest in sex. Perhaps his medical condition has him depressed...feeling less of a man. Or depression has him not interested hormonely in sex, or the treatment for his medical condition has affected him hormonely. More information could help with answering this with more validity.
BUT...if this is an erectile sexual disfunction...i want you to know...that I personally know a quadraplegic and a paraplegic who have gone to counseling and have learned to explore their sexuality in other ways...to help them feel their manhood in satisfying their wives. MANY couples around the country work on this. There can be more to sex than penile penetration. I happen to think one of these couples probably has a better sex life and a better MARRIAGE then anyone I know.
Look at Dana and Christopher Reeves as someone you can relate to. Please do not make a medical condition the reason to see satisfaction outside of a marriage if your husband is functional in many other ways...if he is not comatose...or last stages of ALS etc. there are ways to work on this you may not even know about.
Like i said, although you don't have to lay out specifics here...its harder to address with any validity....but are you sure there is no way to overcome your husband's medical condition...it does take two willing partners to work on a project...have both of you given up on the Will ? Are you sure its impossible to have a satisfying sex life with your husband? Have you explored all the information given out by those who have gone before you in your situation?
My friend says, that although she wished her husband had never had that diving accident...it was going to make or break her marriage...they decided to make it...and she says...they are closer and more bonded than ever..because they mutually chose to make this work...and i think she is probably more sexually satisfied than anyone I know from the look of love and satisfaction and the level of intimacy....they forced themselves to find. Her husband feels more like a man, and does what he CAN do and is forced everyday by his pride to live in his situation and do what HE CAN do..because otherwise he wanted to kill himself...there came a time he made a choice...to adapt and work on it. I am very jealous of their level of committment and intimacy...she said it changed everything and now because they chose to...she is actually closer to him and more satisfied emotionally and physically, depite the financial hardships etc...they decided to make working on this..their work...to adapt and LIVE....how 'bout that?
I went to bed thinking about this. had to ask...
Lizzie
Hi juustmekc,
It's really good to hear from you. I don't know if I posted back to you but I enjoyed your post about a week ago where you said you cared for your xMM, you just loved your H and family more. That post helped me try to accept that it's okay to care for someone as long as your family is first and you realize you're not going to be with the other person. I also could really relate when you said you could have been with other guys, just didn't, then along comes xMM... you have IC and the (maybe because we're women) we fall in "love."
The back and forth of having to work with them is hard too - you can never really have a 'clean break.' Was the only reason you moved 250 miles away so that there would be more distance between the two of you?
Have you read that article below on "Co-dependent and Addictive Relationships" that is below on this board? Did that fit you and xMM? I was shocked at how much it fit me and xMM. I was just wondering... it says that if the Runaway senses the Chaser (usually the woman) feels the Chaser is "moving on" they will reach out again. Do you think your xMM is reaching out again (conversation on Friday) because he senses you are moving on (your posts seem to reflect you moving on)?
WIP
ARTIST,
I forgot last night to add "...a previous 10 YEAR affair"! Your xMM had another A that last 10 years prior to yours? When you found out about that 1 year into your A, did that send up major red flags? Or had you known xMM so long (through the first A?) that there was some trust and it didn't bother you since you were in it for different reasons?
I read that and I have to admit (hey, it's all about ME lately lol) that all I could think is that my xMM probably will be looking for his next "10 year" A shortly.
You ever worry that your xMM won't solve his issues and will look for someone else next? And you'll have to 'watch' that in action? Would that bother you, or you are so 'done' that you don't care?
I think if I could make a clean break it wouldn't bother me. It would be more of a live and let live situation. The problem is that I think I'd have to watch it happen (or suspect the whole time anyway).
WIP
The biggest problem I have is that my H is uncomfortable talking about sex. Bringing up the subject is sure to end in a fight. He says that I have a problem that it is me because I would like to have sex more then onece every 2 or 3 months. I think he began being depressed about 6 or so years ago and we (kids and I) begged him to take something for it. He would spend whole weekends in bed, come home from work and fall asleep or just watch TV. He refused and that's when I stupidly started with the A. So my kids had a father who was unavailable and then I was gone "at work" all of the time. Now he has high blood pressure and is on meds for depression and we are working at becoming closer and he even was willing to "do something" to please me last night(didn't happen) but even the thought is progress. I bought the book "Sexless Marriage" and begged him to read it with me. He read 7 pages and took it on a trip and lost it....
It's not just the lack of aexual contact but how he dosen't seem to care about my needs or feelings that hurts most. He used to tell me to find a friend with benefits, or that I needed to have someone to just have sex with. Now that he suspects I have, he dosen't say that anymore but calls XMM "my boyfriend" and tells me to call him. He has refused to go to any kind of therapy, well actually we did try and the T (who should be shot) sympathized with my DH and told him his life was terrifble!!! I finally got our Dr. to put him on anti-depressants he took them for 2 weeks and it was like a miracle then he wouldn't take them. He is taking them now. Started about a month ago. There is a big difference. My DD, who is grown, told me years ago when she was in college that he is a manic/depressive. We did go to MC years ago and the counselor told me that either I accept it or I leave because he wouldn't change. She told me I would end up having an A. So with these past experiences I don't know that I have much faith in therapists. I saw a counselor last year while in the A not sure it helped and I have moved.
Sometimes I wonder how I can stay married but I really can't see leaving him. How could I leave him when I feel like he is sick? I do love him too. We have been M for 23 years. He has been my best friend in the past and even now is supportive of me in a lot of ways. I think your friend and her H are awesome. I hope to get there and try to remind myself that it is not a race. It is OK if we go about this slowly, but then I also feel that I am getting older every minute and am wasting precious time! Your post does give me hope and the determination to keep on trying.
WIP-this is were XMM comes in. He was my friend, knew about my problems and started off trying to be helpful and supportive. I still have problems because I don't really know what kind of man he is. Is he playing games? It could fit into the codependant relationship with me being the chaser. It is hard for me because from the beginning he has said this is wrong and been guilty. He can always go there and how can you argue that it isn't? Did he just use me for S and also for his career? Did he really fall for me? I am trying to not care and just let it go. I know he called on Fri because he felt I was moving on. He was kind of desperate and said so many things. Things I had always wanted to hear from him but he would never say. That was roughtly 90 days and they say it takes a lot of men that long to miss you. Well he definately was missing me. We talked for 90 minutes. But the reality is that they are only words. He is M and is devoted to his kids. I need to take care of my own family and not worry about him. Sometimes though it is easier to still use him as an escape instead of dealing with my problems.
We moved because I took a promotion. During all of this I went back to school to get my degree. Part of the reason I applied for the promotion was to get away from XMM. At the time he had done a good job of keeping it just friends between us and it hurt. His wife would pack his lunch or make his breakfast and I just couldn't take it. When he wanted to he would flirt with me and I couldn't say no but he could. He really did have his cake and eat it too. My DH quit his job to stay home with my 2 DS. He is going back in a few weeks. He cannot stay home. He just dosen't get off the couch!!!
Good Morning KC- I finally found a bit of private computer time, hopefully I will be "uninterrupted" for a while. The loss of the sexual relationship is a HUGE issue for me. I started to address it in T and it was a real "moment" for me when I tried to describe how much I missed being with my Husband intimately and I dissolved into a blubbering, lost child, totally out of self control (very much not like me - but come to think of it - over the past few years as I became increasingly disconnected from myself and lost in the selfish jungle of my affair - I did experience more and more moments of sentimentality when would get teary eyed in many emotionally charged situations - very often involving sadness for other people's pain ...HMMM I am digressing....more thoughts for future T!)
My therapist encouraged me to "sit with" this pain. In this moment I felt a recognition, a glimpse of the incredible void within me. She commented that I must feel like I live in a very "lonely" place and I realized how very "alone" I have always felt. I have always only relied on myself and have even used my sexuality in a highly objectified way i.e intercourse = intimacy. I have so much to learn.
Intimicy is also a hug in the morning before I've had my shower or brushed my teeth. It is bringing me tea while I am typing away doing who knows what on the computer. It is sleeping together and waking up together in the same bed for over twenty years. It is working together to raise two delightful, highly intelligent teenagers who have amazing self-esteem. It is inviting someone else in to see all of me and asking for what I need.
In my A there was an incredible amount of pleasure but it occurred in a seperate reality that eventually split me away from my ability to be truly be present in my Everyday. The full experience of intimacy cannot exist in a vacuum. Somehow we have to re-learn how to make sex simply another expression of our intimacy in our marriage relationship and not a "be all" and "end all" experience in and of itself. Not easy for those of us who have used it as our "void fillers".
Well KC, those are my words of wisdom for now.....there will be much more to follow. I tuly value being able to share my thoughts and experiences and hopefully "progress" with someone who also walks in my shoes.
ARTIST
<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>
I KNOW this to be true but somehow along the way I internalized that IC was the "ultimate" expression of intimacy - the "be all" and "end all" as I described it in my previous response to KC. I am now wondering how much of this is a sub-concious desire to be "possessed" or "taken" or "punished" i.e.) to achieve a temporary total loss of self. In my A the acts of penile penetration were extreme - hours upon hours of constant "banging" (I apologize if I am giving TMI but I want you to get the picture...)
I am starting with personal counselling to better understand my issues and learn to put a voice to what I need from my H. I believe that with time and renewed communication he will be able to satisfy me sexually once again. Perhaps someday we will explore marital counselling together. Somehow we fell "off the wagon" sexually once we became parents. (not unusual....) Our sexual relationship has already improved dramaticly since the end of the A but I am still struggling with staying realisic in expectations. It is going to take lots of time to rediscover each other - I have been wandering around lost in Affair la-la land for Seven YEARS....
Thanks Lizzie for your comments and support,
ARTIST
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