Darnit, I fell for the Callistus troll. That really kills me that I'm so gullable. I thought I'd try to sincerely help someone out of a big, fat mess. I took a lot of my time doing it and tried to speak from the heart. If I new it was a troll, I never would have gotten involved in the thread. I didn't care if he was a BS - he was a person that was hurting - just like the rest of us. I agree that this person needs counseling; both for himself and marital. He's got a big mess on his hands. And, yes, I agree that what I suggested was a very tall order. Sometimes, the hardest lessons require a very tall order to get through it. I have learned a bunch through my marriage, divorce and affair. Mostly, I've learned to forgive myself and not take all of the blame for the events that happened in my marriage. Options, people accuse, I had options such as divorce or separation? My XH didn't deserve the affair?... I'm just pointing blame on others for my stupid mistakes? Honey, I wish it would have been that easy. There were many details that most people don't know. The highlights of my marriage... Hmmm, where do I start??? Oh, how about my husband putting me in a headlock when I was pregnant with HIS child and faithful to him - while he accused me of it being someone else's kid. I never had cheated on him and it definitely with out a doubt was his kid (unless it was immaculate conception). Oh, and how about when my XH refused to find work and he sat on his duff and I worried about money (my XH does have two degrees, mind you)... and then he hid money from me in a secret account. Leave, you say? Well, my family thought my marriage was great, and oh so suburbanly perfect because I was sooooo good at covering up the ugliness and making our lives seem normal. I had no support from my family when I spoke to them about separation and divorce. My mom knew of nothing because I was way too ashamed to tell her what I had married and loved all these years. I had a kid that loved his dad and I was unsure of how I could provide for my son and myself. And, then there was the guilt of it all... and shame that I couldn't make the most dysfunctional situation work. Other options????? I was not thinking clearly enough to fight for other more morally correct options. And, to tell you the truth, I didn't give a crap about my XH's feelings at the time. I was trying to figure out a way to survive without killing myself and without hurting anyone. Heck, I probably would have done the "right" thing if I didn't care about who I hurt and didn't feel any shame. We all speak from our own experiences and give advice from our own experiences... and I'm hear to tell you that my experiences SUCKED. My options sucked. Everywhere I turned, I felt that I was hurting someone. The person I cared least of all about was ME. I know that it may seem hard to believe that because the normal belief is to think that OW are the epitomy of selfishness. HOGWASH!!! You live with mental abuse for many years and you try making good decisions. Oops, I got my ire up here... calm down, Bird.
I will end this thread by saying that NO ONE is a victim in a marriage - not a cheater or a BS. And, no one is morally superior to the next person. If I lived my life backwards, I would have made better choices. But, my XH is by far right up there with bad choices that harmed me. A poster that will remain nameless wanted to know how sweeping the affair under the rug was going to help things? It's called EXTREME forgiveness. The other male poster that will remain nameless said he wanted to save his marriage. The only way a BS is going to be able to do that is by extreme forgiveness (maybe it's not possible for a BS). It's not going to be by showing the cheater up, calling her on her actions, forcing the situation and trying to control things. It is going to be by the most extreme humility on the BS's part. Maybe it's more than a BS is capable of. It may not be what's best for them. But, the question was how to save a marriage. Had the question been different, like how can I prove my wife wrong, I would have answered differently. It comes down to what a BS wants in their life. A BS needs to decide if they truly love the cheater. If the answer is yes, than sometimes we sweep things under the rug for the good of our goal. If that's not possible for a BS, then so be it. The BS needs to except that of himself. Whether it's fair or not, an affair creates one heck of a mess.
Ok, I'll stop posting on this thread now. I just had to get my one last lick in because I'm so competitive :) I had no idea that the other poster posted on the BS board. I stopped lurking there because I am working on myself now and it serves no useful purpose for me anymore. BTW for newcomers, I *am* an OW... I guess XOW now ... 5 year affair ... been here for years trying to get out of the affair ... 3 days NC and hurting pretty badly.
Bird
{{gentle hugs}} You know, I'm sure, that the first few days/weeks of NC are the hardest. It gets easier with time....be gentle with yourself, take care of yourself.
I do not believe the original poster was a troll, but someone generally interested. However, there were a couple trolls and WHY they post here, gosh only knows--must be slow on the MA board. Don't chide yourself for falling for the bait....your posts were honest and sincere...unlike the other.
Your former marriage is very much like my current one....and yes, when one is subjected to years of emotional/mental abuse, it becomes a matter of survival. Our thinking gets a bit skewed and sometimes we make decisions (i.e., affairs) that we think will help or save us. But we are only doing the best that we can. Don't even try to justify it to others who have not walked in your shoes, most likely they will NEVER understand it and only create negative feelings in you. It sometimes takes a long time to realize that we sometimes feed into our own victim mentality....took me 15 years to see that one. Now that I have "regained" my power...I find that I no longer want to be here...but I'm still fence sitting and waiting for a couple more things to fall into place first.
Your description of "extreme forgiveness"....that's an interesting take on that...I like it. I've always been a firm believer in "honesty" EXCEPT when it comes to affairs (much too painful for most couples). But in the case where one spouse already knows or has susipicions.....that IS extreme forgiveness to move on. But what about someone who does NOT THINK the spouse knows (when they do) and continues to cheat....isn't a confrontation then necessary? Just wondering
Hope your day is brighter....(and honey, I've been on and off here since 2001...LOL)
dharma
Thank you for your kind words. I really needed that today. You asked me what to do if the Betrayer won't fess up as in this guy's case. That is why I recommended getting them both to sit down and recommit to fidelity. If she said she has been faithful, he puts his extreme forgiveness to the test and says, "fine. Can we both promise to be faithful from here on out too?" That is the sweeping under the rug part. The past is swept under the rug and then hopefully, they build on that renewed promise to be faithful while they both put a ton into fixing their marriage and go to counselling. The BS will know shortly whether or not she kept her promise. He knew the first time. It's kind of like giving her a 'get out of jail free' card. It gives her a chance to turn her life around on her own. Without her confession, it is just an accusation... even if he is 99.9999% sure .... it is still an accusation. It is a tall order for sure to be able to give someone that kind of gift. I don't know if I could do it or any other BS because we are human. But, I think that by doing it that way, a marriage has a better chance of working. If anyone uses the twelve-step approach (yes, us co-dependents use it too... it's not just for alchoholics anymore :) you will remember that you should make ammends where ever it does not inflict more damage. In most cases (especially without the aid of a counselor of sorts), airing the dirty affair laundry, even in the guise of making ammends or forcing an OW to make ammends, is probably going to blow up into something other than an honest apology for her wrongdoing.
I'm sorry to hear that your marriage isn't so great. Man, I've been there. I try to keeping my victim role down to once a week now. Yesterday was my day to play the part :) My XH threatened so many times to move out and finally one day I took him up on it and said to go. He admitted six months later (when I wouldn't let him come back home) that he was just trying to make me beg him to come back and to appreciate him more... oh, what love. My XMM used to say that I had it easy getting out of a bad marriage. Maybe, but I think the key was I had the courage to stay out. Looking back now, I do see I had choices. My parents have come around and supported my decision in the end. They now see the whole picture. My kid has adjusted and worked through the pain of divorce as much as you probably can. I see now that I did have options - separation and divorce. I see that I wouldn't have been better staying in that ugly situation and just having an affair to survive. But, at that time, I had on my blinders (shame, guilt, fear, and doubt) and all I could see was the big, blinking affair neon sign in front of my face with my MM yelling out, 'free drinks, no cover!!!!' My other morally correct options were sitting outside of blinder field of vision, in the dark with gnashing teeth. Jeez, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which way I thought was the least painful way to go. Fast forward 5 years and I am probably in as much or more pain than with my XH. It really stinks. I hope I can stick to this NC thing. He hasn't called and I'm not calling him. I want a better life for myself. I'm just hoping that I can stay convinced of that through the long-haul. Thanks again, Dharma... I'm just kind of babbling here again.
Bird