EndED:Not making much progress, again...

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
EndED:Not making much progress, again...
15
Mon, 11-15-2004 - 6:17am
Hi all, long one again, I fear...

after having successfully shipped over my ExA's birthday (I did not send that letter) and having gotten rid of my keepsakes of him, after having cleared my house + computer, I still can't clear my mind. The stray-cat I told you about seems here to stay (which is a nice thing, we enjoy her a lot, we named her "XXL", "Fatso" for short:-)--- but so seem the memory of + the questions to my ExA... and I so desperately wish it was getting better.

OK, so the questions are not as pressing as they were. The fact that he's married now I can think about without much pain nowadays, and it helps a lot to scrap that stupid picture (which I saw for a long time) of him turning up on my doorstep one day and wanting me back -- or is this not about the DANGER of thinking about him being "all alone, boohoo, and so able to come back" but rather about the perverse COMFORT of seeing him in the situation I was used to seeing him, i.e., partnered??? Ah, here she goes, mind reeling again... forward, yes, but so excruciatingly slow.

I don't even think that I WOULD want him back - thoughts of seeing him by a stupid chance or him contacting me only draw feelings of embarrassment and real fear. I really wouldn't know what to say to him, and it's been such a long time now (1 1/2 years). On the other hand there is a great fear that we might meet (there is not much chance of that) and could mentally be as close as we were in a very short time.

So, still he lingers, even with all my knowledge and analysis - proof of this I find in the fact that I keep coming back to this board (apart from seeing if I might help somewhere) to see if there is someone else who is in my situation (and feeling terrible to see such a lot of women still in the the middle of it all...).

An aside: I feel that no one who really successfully and for all times has found real closure of an affair will feel the need/wish to come (back) to this board, even if only to help: I think those of us who really "made it" will not have any strong emotions about affairs any longer and are not interested in the subject at all any more. They will not want to invest time and thought in something they are completely done with.

But I'm still here and I feel I should not be. I should not still foster the wish that the affair should just tell me once that he profited of this thing we had (I think he did, if only in shaking him up and putting his life is order again AFTER us); that he did love me - when I KNOW (I have it in writing) that, in the end, he was only embarrassed by the whole thing, regretted it deeply and wanted nothing more than to forget it.

I shouldn't still be livid about him asserting his ever-leading role in the affair (and belittleling mine) by stating in his goodbye-letter "I (!) should never have let it come to this/never should have gone this far with you" when, for long months, he held onto me like a lifeline, for all he was worth... But I still AM so angry about that; it's the thing that hurt most of all.

And I should NOT be something like envious (can you believe this?!) at those of us who's affair won't keep NC, still contacts them, maybe wants them back, at least tells them he loved and misses them still... these thoughts are so bad for me and it pains so much that I have them.



My "braveness/strength" to keep NC was none: HE was the one who kept it. I've only recently started to feel the humiliation of writing him again and again (which I did for quite a while), whereas he was able to only answer mails of mine which were "sentiment-free", free of answer-searching, "friend"-mails, so to say. I couldn't keep up those, of course. He was so sensible in this - and I was such a yammering, reduced cry-baby. It's hard to forgive myself for this.

Can't I get closure because I want another chance (which I'd use better than the last) to show him that I have power/strength, too? To tell HIM to go away (which would have been my real-self-reaction before this guy)? I changed so much through him, for the worse, and I can't seem to get my former, stronger self back. But I don't want to prove his words right: "Oh God - I probably ruined your whole life!" He can't be THIS powerful, can he?

I wanna be free - not the freedom to say "all men who do affairs are a**holes etc. and all women are stupid if they can't see they're doing wrong after 1 second in the affair" p.p. Lingering angry thoughts (also general ones) bind you just as much as loving ones. To me it feels now like ANY thought about an ended affair is just an unacknowledged/unconscious means to not-let-go-entirely, to keep SOMEthing of it = to avoid complete closure. How to conquer this?

I'm really trying, but don't seem to be moving; it feels more like sinking again and again back to a place I have been before often and I don't want to go to any more. Something like caving in without breaking NC.

Any thoughts of you on this? I appreciate your answers,

M.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-10-2004
Mon, 11-15-2004 - 12:41pm
Dear WITW:

I would like you to tell me more about your A, how long it lasted, why did it end, are you married what was up with him, you say now he is married?

I KNOW YOU HAVE MADE MUCH PROGRESS.

You have, I know you have. Lately, I am trying to really see the little bits of progress I have made. See my post re 30 days N/C and 60 day No See. I would like you to list the progress you have made so that you can see it in black and white.

I know I don't have as much N/C as you--but I have been out of the A for 13 months and have had long periods of N/C so I do think that I am in a similar situation.

I am really sorry that you are still hurting but I don't think you should worry. It is taking a long time for me too. My friend who had cancer and was in a long term A and then took years to get over it told me that you should just see it (your pain/sadness/love) as a traveling companion, something you carry around with you every day (like her cancer) you just get used to it being a part of you for now.

The fact that you are functional, living your own life, is progress. Are you married are you dating? I am making baby steps toward starting to date. If you can find just ONE man that interests you A LITTLE you will learn that HE is not the only man in the world. AND IF THERE IS ONE OTHER MAN IN THE WORLD, THEN THERE COULD BE MORE.

NO NO NO HE CANNOT RUIN YOUR WHOLE LIFE. THAT IS IN YOUR CONTROL--NOT HIS. Yes he had a powerful influence on your life as my AP did. But think of all the years you have left to live. I was thinking that last night, I have 50 more years to go. I WILL NOT allow this to be the end. I even asked God last night, when will I fall out of love? will I ever fall out of love? And the answer was--only God knows the answer. But I SWORE that I would try with all my might to do all the actions to move on and let go of him so that I would maximise my shot at getting over him while I'm still young. You have to do that too. If it doesn't work for us--if years from now we are still in love--at least we will know we tried as hard as we could. We HAVE TO TRY NOW.

I am with you WITW, lets do it together. I really need your support and so does this board to see someone with long term N/C and know that it still takes a long, long time. I know that and I'm going to get better in my own time.

I know what you mean about sinking again and again. But you are still moving forward too. Really think about where you are now versus 6 months ago. I can look back 90 days and see a big change in me--even 30 days ago, I am better now. Do I still think of him--yes all day every day. Is there anything I can do about it? Yes--stay busy and focus on my life and not his, read this board and learn about the futility of it all, pray, pray, pray.

I think you are doing way better than you think.

Hugs

Survive

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Tue, 11-16-2004 - 3:42am
Hi survive, and thank you for your supporting comments.

Yes, if I do look at it objectively, I have to say I did make some progress - I just can't be as proud of it as others... it keeps mingling with the shame of not having been able to be more decisive when it mattered, and having left my own way to go along with his, when I shouldn't have and when in my heart I always knew better. And I always was impatient ;-)

I posted my story before (alas in few + far between posts), but here in (very) short: I was not married when I met the affair, it lasted 1 1/2 years. He was partnered long-term (6 years, she never knew about me). I met my future husband while I was in the affair. My H (as well as the A) knew all about it, he fought for me and won. I would have kept on seeing the affair (maybe 3 times a year) and talking to him, as he was so important to me. The A had always said he'd never be the one to leave, whatever, and had suggested I find a long-term-partner, so we'd both in the same position, and our affair could go on forever and not change...



But when I did just that, he found that the lover-on-the-side-status was not acceptable (I had taken that role after torturous fights with myself): He split up with his long-term-partner and with me in a span of 2 days, about a month before my marriage. He (who vowed he'd never marry) married this August, not his former partner. I got to know this by chance only.

The list you mention is a good idea, but it'll be pretty short:

- Have kept NC after 1/2 a year after the end

- Have stopped holding imaginary conversations with him

- Don't feel the murderous desire for his body I did before

- Don't fold up (physically, too) as I did for a long time, each time I miss his words and intllectual presence

- Have cleared house/computer of my keepsakes of the A

- know now that I really want/need closure

Not much for all that time past...

Yes, I am married now, to a good man, but one who can't communicate very well. He is 200% different from my A.

Just think: I never asked myself "Will I ever fall out of love?" because that never seemed an option to me. But this question is so relevant: To stop loving him would stop all the hurt and pain (as I've experienced in former relationships). I only prayed for a long time that I might be able to forgive him (and myself) and to REALLY wish him luck etc. in his life. I hvaen't made that stage yet, I'm only able to sometimes.

You are right: We have to try NOW. I was (often too) late for such a lot of things in my life (like children) - if we don't get closure and a better grip, we'll just live to regret, whatever. Not good for us. And shame and thinking "I should be much further now, I'm such a weakling" won't help either.

I'm glad that you wrote - another long-term-survivor, doing the best she can. It helps so much, to hear someone else say "You're doing OK, really". Give my love to your friend: I had cancer when I was 24, it was over after a year, but it'll stay with me forever. Yes, as a friend who helped me grow a lot. Funny how I can see/handle my illness like this and not the A... but my cancer was a thing I could in the end only battle against myself. Then, I took my own way, everybody looking at my bravado, tenacity and inner strength with wide-eyes wonder and applause. However strong you are after an affair - you will never get that kind of praise/appreciation for it, 'cause you are "just righting a wrong" you committed before and so shoudn't make a big deal about it...

And hugs to you,

M.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-13-2004
Tue, 11-16-2004 - 11:47am
I read your post and feel your pain. I have only been out of the A for 7.5 weeks. We had a R for 9 months. We were totally into each other and loved each other. We made all kinds of plans to be together. When it came down to it he couldn't do it and wanted me to not give up on him. I knew I couldn't leave my h too. I have had some very bad days. You can read my past posts. I thought it would never get better. How could I stop loving him and move on? How could he stop loving me and move on? I hated myself and felt ashamed as you for not being more decisive and let him steer the way after he told me he couldn't leave her now. I held on a month longer than I should have. I beat myself everyday for that. But I started to think about it logically and realized that he did love me too and he was having a hard time as well. I felt rejected bc I called back after we ended and he didn't want to talk to me. I battled with that one for a long time.

You have to move on and make the most of your life now. You will regret one day that life has passed you by and you did nothing about it. I am starting to regret some of the things that I did during my A. My h on Fathers Day told me it was the worst fathers day ever. I was in a bad mood bc I was fighting with my XMM. I hate that I ruined my H's fathers day bc of another man. I think this is a step forward in the right direction.

I will never get full closure from him on why he didn't want to talk to me anymore. But in a way I did get closure. I knew he was hurting to and I knew he wanted to be with me but we just couldn't do it anymore. That has to me my closure. Give yourself closure and remember that you two shared something but it was just too complicated and bad timing. Its hard to come to the realization that I will never talk to this person again after everything we have been through but it has to be for the best and I need to move on for my family.

Good Luck

iVillage Member
Registered: 05-07-2004
Tue, 11-16-2004 - 1:33pm

witw,

Good for you for making it through X’s bday. I know how hard that would be. I told my T that I just want my X ‘out of my head’ and asked when it will come – she said that with time and NC. I still have thoughts of him all the time – it doesn’t help that he works on the floor below me.

Wow, I can’t believe it’s been over a year and a half for you. I understand when you say you could be as mentally close as you were before if you see him. That scares me too.

I agree with you when you say someone who’s had real closure will not lurk the board, and not have any interest in it anymore. I can’t wait for that day for me! (Although it is nice to see posts about those who did make it – everyone needs inspiration.)

It sounds like you are still looking for some closure. Just remember that feelings change – my god, do they ever. Four months ago I could never have imagined that I would be BLOCKING my X from my work email – but I really think I need to do this now; I have to move on. Every time I see his name in my inbox I end up thinking about him way too much even though I won’t write back.

Have you written letters to him and not sent them? It sounds like you did for his birthday, but maybe you need to write more. Keep getting your feelings out. The more you do this, the easier it is (at least for me) to get them out and then realize you’re done. (If that makes sense.)

When I read this “that, in the end, he was only embarrassed by the whole thing, regretted it deeply and wanted nothing more than to forget it.” I can relate to it because I feel that way, too. But it is not intended to be mean. I made a big mistake – I gave in to passion, but if I had to do it all over again I would not. Only months after can we begin to see what we did. I need to move on – I don’t think I can ever forget it. But it’s not who I am, nor who I want to be. I hope you can understand that – maybe that is how your X felt when he said that.

When my X contacts me, it does not make me feel good. We are both married, and if he is thinking about me as much as I am thinking about him, it is not right and not fair to our marriages. We never talked about love, thank goodness!

Please forgive yourself for letting your emotions rule your head. It’s not an easy thing to feel the feelings but not act on them. But it’s a skill that can be learned.
No he is not that powerful to ruin your whole life. You are the power behind your life. Please remember that. You knew what you were doing so please don’t blame him for all the wrongs. Get up, dust yourself off, and be strong and determined to live a life free of deceit and lies. That is the real power.

I am not sure how to conquer the whole affair thing and have complete freedom, but I am working on it. That’s why I went to see the T and she said ‘delete his em without reading them’. Well, I have to go a step further because I get too tempted to read them so I have to set up a rule to delete anything from him. I’m not doing it because I want to, it’s because I feel I have to do this to get over him. No thoughts = freedom.

I completely understand this when you say “I'm really trying, but don't seem to be moving; it feels more like sinking again and again back to a place I have been before often and I don't want to go to any more. Something like caving in without breaking NC.”
I wish I knew the magic answer to that. I sympathize with you and I wish you the best. Is there something you can throw yourself into? A hobby? School? Staying busy is the cure for depression – and it’s a fact that your mind can’t think of two things at the same time. I find that the only time I don’t think of him is when I am busy with other people, or talking. Maybe I should start talking to myself out loud when I’m alone and that way thoughts of him won’t creep in since I can’t have anyone hear! You can’t live in the past either, maybe try to set some goals and concentrate on where you want to be in one year – setting goals are a good method to get stuff done.

Hang in there.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-10-2004
Wed, 11-17-2004 - 12:44am

Dear Witw:

The part about your M doesn't make sense. It seems like your A ended when you got M. That seems like a good time for it to end. I don't understand why you are not madly in love with your H--you've only been married one yr.

Survive

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Wed, 11-17-2004 - 6:19am

Thanks so much for your sympathetic comments, iv.

I would also like to see posters who are out of it for good - but I guess we won't, since they're out of it for...

About writing never-sent stuff: I did that forever + a day, and now I'm written out. There is nothing more I can/want to analyse or state. I'm done with that. Sometimes I wish I could still write - but it's all frozen-in-time, so to speak. There was one definite moment when I knew that any more words on any more pages about this would just serve the bitter wish to stay-in-contact-somehow - and it suddenly became a pathetic thing to do. Of course I still write other stuff (I always have), but I actually had to get USED to reflecting again about something else...

Thnaks for putting in (your) words what you think my A could have meant about regret etc. I know he certainly didn't mean to be mean - it's MY perception-problem. I wanted him so much to just say "I will always love you, we just have to part now, but I'm grateful and will never forget" - even if this had been a lie. I really think that would have made it easier for me; maybe only because then I wouldn't have been the only "dumb one" to hang onto love and I would have had my love validated...

Yes, I know, keeping busy is one of the best forgetting-tickets, but I find this hard for me. I will have to try harder on this, but I don't find it easy to muster the energy to apply for yet another job I know I will be turned down for, to find friends when I distinctly feel I am surrounded by another species from outer space. I miss my hometown, but we can't go back there: My husband is a doctor, and he can't move easily. I knew this when I married him -- but I did think things would turn out to be easier here. Well, they didn't.

I will hang in there, and I hope and pray you are progressing speedily on your good way.
If we had only known before...if we had only just once, visited this board BEFORE we started the A.
Well, gotta make do with the present and all the reality of it.
Hugs,
M.

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Wed, 11-17-2004 - 6:42am

Yup, survive, you are perfectly right. It WAS a good time to end the A, and I did - well, he did and I kept NC (after a while).
The story/problems with my DH is/are a completely different one/s, and of course, relevant to my situation but not to this board...

Maybe I can say to your question here that I never was "madly" in love with my H, and neither was he with me. "Madly" in love is not something my H is cut out for (he doesn't have enough passion for that), and me, I was/am "reasonably" in love with him. He can't show his emotions well and (in his opinion) hasn't GOT many emotions - which makes it doubly hard for me, 'cause the A (the man) was nothing but emotional, passionate, etc. We dug deep, always, lustily - and this is not something I will ever be able to do with my H. He is a wonderful, generous, caring, tender, intelligent man, as much as he can be. Time will tell if I can ever fully appreciate his good sides - and accept those sides that I can never have again as long as I'll stay with him.

For a short while, I dated both men (both knew this) and this, for me, was heaven on earth. I had my cake and was eating it, too. Those 2 were fundamentally different and each one gave me what the other could not, while no one missed/lacked anything, none of the 3 of us had to do without anything they needed. No one was jealous but the A - HE couldn't handle an otherwise perfect 3some. Me and my H could have lived with it just fine. The A would have been just one more friend with some more attachment than friends usually have. We love a lot of people in our lives - why not 2 at the same time? It's not the usual thing, but, in my opinion, with the right frame of mind, and truth for all all the time, we could all have been happy (We would have lived a long way apart, anyway). But the A wasn't strong enough, he would never tell his partner - he'd rather leave her in the end, just like me.

OK, dreams are 10 a penny; and no use going on about the might-have-beens. Just rambling.
Wishing you well,
M.

Visitor (not verified)
anonymous user
Wed, 11-17-2004 - 6:57am

Hiya WITW,

You've had some wonderful support given to you in this thread. I guess I can only fall back on a couple of anonymous quotes at this point ;)

"Love never dies, sometimes we just need to learn to truly live without the one we love." ~Anon~

"Forgiveness is giving up all hope for a better past and instead inviting hope for a better future." ~Anon~

Wishing you strength & peace,
Posie

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-10-2004
Thu, 11-18-2004 - 4:47pm

Dear Woman ITW:

I am sorry if I was prying re: your M its just that MY ONLY HOPE is that someday I will fall MADLY in love with someone else someday and I was just trying to figure out why you got M if you didn't have those feelings.

But I guess he has met *some* of your needs and you will have to fulfill the rest for yourself. I am alone right now so I have noone to meet my needs but me.

did you move to Germany and not know anyone there? I am trying to figure out your situation because it seems you are ill, don't have work, no kids, and not many friends or family around. What is going on?

I am so thankful for my friends this year they have showed me what *real* love is. It is being there. (unlike xMM)

I am trying to find answers to your continued suffering and you not moving on as quickly as you wanted to. I believe it has something to do with you not having enough positives, or support, or dreams and goals to reach forward toward.

Like me, I have the basic goal of working hard to support myself and children (i'm self employed so my income fluctuates and I have some control over how hard I work. believe me last year was not a stellar yr.) so my goal is to do better this year. I have kids I have to raise and that keeps me busy. I have the hope of a new relationship some day.

What are you doing with your time? What are your goals, dreams plans for your life? What were you trying to escape from when you started the A? What do you need to face in yourself?

And sorry the threesome thing does not make any sense. It is not the way God intended it to be. When I fell in love I no longer wanted my xH to touch me. I cried whenever we made love.

It sounds like you have ONE thing to fill your life with and that is your new H. You are barely out of the honeymoon stage and there is probably so much you haven't explored or know about each other. Maybe counseling together would help your communication.

I really think you are not moving forward as quickly because you don't see anything to like in your present or future. How can we change that?

Survive

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Fri, 11-19-2004 - 4:28am

Dear survive, thanks for your questions and concern, that's so welcome here! (And I didn't see your question as "prying", please don't worry.)

As I was so madly (in every respect) in love with the A, my H was (and often still is) a wonderful anti-dote to my drama-prone personality. He gives me peace, security, tenderness, and he is SO good with my parents - and I'm much better with them myself, since I have him. And we travel a lot: All my life I never could travel much (money), but now I get so visit my beloved warm sea once a year at least. And our fine financial situation allows me to f.ex. cook up for the 1 friend and the relatives that are left to me, give nice presents to his brother's kids, etc. I have a lot of reasons to be thankful for my H, and I am. I was 43 when I married, and I had given up on that notion a long time ago (never was so keen on white dress, etc.). I felt the need to settle; and I knew deep in my heart that as much as I loved the A, we would never make the proverbial Happy Couple.
So, it was either wait it out till maybe I was 50, be true to my dream and forget about my life - or jump into a strange water and try for reality with my H.

But, as "settled" as I am now, I still have to right my inner self and take better care of it. No H/any other person can do this for me.

I think, you being alone now, stand a better chance than I did to work through your A and get good closure. I just jumped ship - and straight onto another; that left me no time to properly end the A. I was not really free - but my H knew my sorrow about the A, and he understood and supported me as best he could.

I AM German, born + bred (as you can see from the "weird" posting times :-). Not that I like it much (I'd rather be Australian, better climate ;-), but I've come to accept it with time.
I'm not really ill (as I have been 3 times in my life). I have numerous "complaints": Really painful shoulders, high pulse-rate, difficulties with my thyroid-gland-medication (need this), plus the usual I-get-older-stuff. All that troubles me in the respect I can't be 20 again and that I think some of these complaints might be psychosomatic, i.e. situation-connected. I'm dealing with this, but don't get any relevant help from the Drs.

I live about 300 km away from my parents and my one&only best friend. I lost quite a few of my friends as well as my then-best-friend of over 30-years-standing (i.e., they left me standing in the cold) in the recent past, this is a long story (posted elsewhere before) and connected with the A. So far, I couldn't find any new friends here, the friends of my H not being my kind of people (they're nice to me, but I couldn't have a "deeper" conversation with anyone of them). And, so far, I couldn't find work here - my H earns too much. I go for an interview and they tell me they have 2 or 3 other people (same qualification) in personal dire straits (kids, H without work, single mum etc.) waiting for the job - so why should they give it to me? True. I'm about ready to give up on the thought of a regular job.

You ask "what is going on?" Well, not much. My self-esteem is in the pits, I get to thinking no one is interested in me as a person etc. My energy is just not picking up.

You write: "" I am trying to find answers to your continued suffering and you not moving on as quickly as you wanted to. I believe it has something to do with you not having enough positives, or support, or dreams and goals to reach forward toward.""

Yes, you are right. Also has to do with an unulfilled wish for a child. When I married, I was, at last, in a position to give this serious thought - but now I was too old, and the risks (after the cancer, and with only 1 kidney) were too high for me. Here I was, at last ready and able to take over some serious responsibility - and had to see it was not to be. I'm not really accepting this calmly, yet.

So far, I've had a lot of psychological support in my life - and then it suddenly all stopped dead. I often think maybe I've had my allocated share and just used it all up too quickly...
And after the A, I found I no longer entertained any dreams or strove for new goals: I've HAD my dream come true, found the goal I had been seeking all my life - but the dream didn't want me, and the goal turned out to be just another leg on the long journey. I got married. I enjoyed all that M brought, but I stopped seeking and dreaming. I perceive it like an end, not a start. At the beginning of the M I still had seen it as a start - not any more. Weird, huh?!

Can you see how I'm a little envious (you know how I mean this) of your situation? You have responsibility for your kids, you're taking this on and you're doing well (and I'm convinced next year will be better for you!). You're conquering this hard and long A-situation (and I'm sure you'll win), and look into the future with hope. If you don't, you should draw enormous self-respect and acknowlegement out of this!!!

In answer to you last §§s I can probably sum up: I never saw myself as very able or likable. Oh, I know my strengths and talents - but I blame myself for not putting them to enough use. I was always afraid of change and mostly lonely for someone who would really understand me - and who I could understand like myself. My dreams and goals varied from one minute to the next, I'm very undecisive. I think I've become completely uninteresting to my former friends, and I don't see how this could happen.

Right now, if I could choose, I would just want to be dumb/unintelligent enough to enjoy what I have. I've had so many new beginnings in my life, I don't want any more. Still, life forces me to go-out-and-DO... while I still feel I'm in a (now too long) recovery-phase.

The "we" in your last sentence went straight to my heart. I fully know that I have to do - whatever it is - myself, but the support and the time you are giving me over the ocean are warming me and giving me motivation and hope for new friends in-the-flesh over here.

Take care,
M.

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