On lies - how deep do they go?
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| Mon, 02-15-2010 - 11:38am |
(This was origionally the start of a reply in the 'nothing is working' thread on 'if someone loves someone enough, they would do just about anything. But, then my ramblings went elsewhere and thought it should be a post on its own)
You know, I think the same could be said about most anyone. That 'mountains would be moved' (within reason, I suppose). And while there may have been love from xMM - it wasn't enough.
This is one of the biggest things I struggle with, all the time - from some of the things I gathered/was told, his M was emotionally (possibly financially) abusive and this is what made it difficult for him to 'get out'(if you email me I can be more specific). I, listened, 'understood' and became his confidant/support system 24/7, giving pieces of myself in order for him to be whole/strong enough to 'do what he needed to do', to get out. But, at the end of it - that love (or whatever it was) wasn't enough. Of course, whether the M was abusive or not is up for debate: was it all a lie to keep me in and 'understanding'? Perhaps, perhaps it was. If it wasn't a lie and was indeed abusive, well I think I know enough to 'know' that me (or anyone else for that matter) can't 'make' him leave, that is a choice only he can/could make if I'm in the picture or not.
What it comes down to, now anyway, is considering the stories here - if it was a lie, I don't suppose I can be terribly surprised. It tugs at the heartstrings, made me think that despite how hurt and not good I was 'how could I just leave someone I care for in the lurch while they are going through X, Y, Z?'. I have friends who are in SW and have had close girlfriends in the past who have had to deal with/get out of abusive relationships and I understand the 'shame' that surrounds them, especially emotionally abusive ones where there are no 'scars', no evidence. This is perhaps even more so for men who are never seen as having 'been abused' but more often the abuser (and in that sense I was hesitant to 'not believe' him, because I understood it may have been something difficult to share if it were indeed the case. As I'd said, I've seen friends go through it, had to do some research for a former job at one point on E/P abuse and he/the situation fit most of it to a T. I thought - how could it not be?). This really messed me up - I cared (and still do care) what happened and wand to see him 'out' for his own sake (which, of course, I obviously had an interest in. But, if it was what he said it was, then I had always thought he needed out in general. Or to work on it and have his W in IC to figure out her issues, and him - his). I was always torn between 'if it's so bad, and you yourself have called it abusive, why don't you just leave?', but at the same time recognizing that it's 'never that easy'. So, I was mixed up in being torn between those two thoughts, wanting him out because I cared, but being very aware of the fact that I obviously had an interest in him being out as well. But, as time wore on and I gave and gave with little in return, little change, one of the telling things about how I was 'really feeling' (torn, to say the least!) is that sometimes I would have to 'remind myself' of what he was going through in order to feel 'okay'. In order to pull through and get a bit more strength to 'be there'.
I do know now that 'in the end' whether it was a lie or it was the truth, doesn't matter from where I am. If it was a lie...then, I don't even know what to say. If it wasn't, he'll make his own choices whether to stay/to go/to fix it (if it can be fixed), or just keep on as things have always been. And, I can't concern myself with that. But, it's hard not to. He never spoke ill of her in the sense that he never painted her as intentionally mean and 'cold hearted b*tch', but more to the tune of 'the relationship (re: 'us together') isn't right/it's emotionally damaging/she does these things but I feel the need to 'protect her' from others seeing it that way/no one would believe me', and the list goes on. So...my head and heart are battling it out, as usual. I hurt because of everything that happened, but I also care how 'things turn out' for him. I worry. Yet, I know that there is nothing I or anyone can do for him (should it have not been all a lie, and it very well could have been), he's a 'big boy' (er, sort of?) and will do whatever it is he does, in his own time. Still, it's confusing and I guess I'm wondering - while I understand that there is a common theme of 'my W is cold/uncaring/doesn't listen/there is no S', etc, are common 'chargers', are articulated charges of 'emotional abuse' common as well?
Thanks again for listening folks. I think this is one of my bigger hurdles to get over!
((hugs!))

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Hello again :o)
Maybe your xap had just a little more flare
Maybe, just maybe let's pretend their story is true that they are in a horrible marriage...that does not give way for you or someone else to "fix" him or the marriage. He has to help himself. You know that saying... no one can help you but yourself? Or that other saying, "You can't look for someone else to complete you". Well, its true...if his marriage was really bad, then he would seek professional help or something. But cheating is just as bad as emotional/physical abuse, I think, because cheating involves lying and manipulating which translates into emotional abuse (because your screwing with someone's mind).
I also think 99% of cheaters are happy at home. My xAP in the beginning described his marriage bad; that they argued all the time and she hit him. Truth be told, now I know that all the arguing they did was because he CHEATED. And she would hit him because he CHEATED. So all the arguing was due to him cheating. Otherwise, their marriage was perfect. They had sex on a daily basis, she cooked, cleaned, and supported him (she was the bread winner in the family).
We need to stop making excuses for these men. It's an ongoing trend on here so far.
Ain't it ironic how in the beginning when I would come on this board I would complain that the rules were too strict? But now, I want them back! lol I miss messanger now more than ever.
"I believe that everything happens for a reason. People change so that you can learn to let go, things go wrong so that you appreciate them when they're right, you believe lies so you eventually learn to trust no one but yourself, and sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together."
NC since Dec. 9th 2009
No Contact = No N
Although my situation was not identical to yours in the sense that MM said he was emotionally abused, he did say that his wife was always angry at him and had been for over 4 years, that she hated sex and would tap him on the butt to encourage him to "finish up," that they were merely parents living like roomates. I originally believed all this and my A went on for nearly 2 1/2 years which was almost 2 years past his d-day. As time went on, I became aware that there was love between them as they "rebuilt" but he continually down-played it so that I wouldn't leave him. This was a LDA so it wasn't truly physical but mostly me boosting his ego. Now that we are NC and my rose-colored glasses have been set aside, I now see the lies. Not only am I aware of them, but I have actually seen the evidence recently. It's also made me question everything else I thought I knew about him and what I'd been told. The connected dots are not showing a pretty picture at all but it is helping me to continue with NC. As time goes by, it is easier for me in many ways and another benefit is a closer relationship with my husband - something I thought would never happen.
Perhaps the further out from the A that you become, you will also see things clearer. I wish you well.
NewDawn
Dawn (...and everyone else!)
I see what you mean. Whichever way it falls, it really doesn't matter now. Either it is/was true, in which case only he can fix himself and what not. Of course, it would be helpful to have supportive friends around, but there was no 'just friends' there. And in time, if it was true, he'll fix it on his own/with professional help, or he won't and there isn't anything I can do about it. On the other hand, as time goes on and I see things clearer and the 'dots connect', and it was all just a lie to keep me strung along...well, who needs that? Who needs a person that would lie about something so serious? And of course, to point a finger at myself - 'shame on me' for believing so easily. Being a fool enough to think that 'he wouldn't lie about something like that', because - who would? But then, really - why wouldn't he?
Regardless of whatever it is, I hope he figures it/himself out...but, that most certainly doesn't involve me anymore and the only thing I can do is work my way through/past it and examine why it was that I trusted and believed when I maybe/probably shouldn't have.
'It may be that when we no longer know what to do,
We have come to our real work,
And that when we no longer know which way to go,
We have begun our real journey'
- Wendell Berry
Hi Wcfem,
Good to see the development in this thread with you coming to the conclusion that whether he lied about this or that is really not important. There is always some deception and manipulation involved in As even if it is not done intentionally. Part is human nature and as FC mentioned sometimes the biggest lies are the ones we tell to ourselves to keep the A ball in the air.
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Along with that question, I’d like to throw more out. Why did you allow yourself to get involved in a type of relationship where you had no right or ranking in the R to verify if what he was telling you was the truth or not?
In RL, we get involved in a relationship and over time it can grow and we can verify if our partner is simply putting up a façade or if their projection of their self is valid. We give up this very important right when we get involved in an A. We place ourselves in a position where we have no right to ask questions and where there are no checks and balances and protections for our self.
The real question and the one I hope that I hope you are asking is why you were willing to enter into an A where you gave up all your power to examine a R objectively.
Whether you think you can or you think you can't you are probably right. A parrot can repeat what it has learned but the mark of true intelligence is applying what is learned.
Hi E1
Thank you, and (unsurprisingly!) you're right. That is a question to think on, and before I can even answer it I have to tackle 'the one that comes before' which is - why didn't I even think of it that way? Why did I 'trust what he said' at face value? Having had friends and a few family members go through E/P abuse I suppose I had thought 'who would lie about that?'. But then, in those cases (as you say) I was in an actual relationship where I could verify, to a degree, the claims that were made. In this case, I only had his word and the 'events' or moments he would discuss and give as examples of the abuse and I, foolishly, took them at face-value and as truth.
If I look back on it I can see moments where I had my doubts, where things didn't quite 'add up' and I chose to ignore them. Or in some cases, I would 'see them' but rationalize them somehow. This is also probably a part of why I took things at face-value, a way to rationalize to myself that my involvement was 'okay' or 'needed', that I didn't feel quite so bad if I was 'helping him out' of a bad situation (despite having told myself, and him, so many times that I could not 'make him leave' or do anything for that matter).
I think I got into, a bit anyway, in another post about why I might have gotten into the whole A situation in the first place (thread/post was titled something about 'checking in, good/bad/ugly'). So, I got 'in' in the first place, and then after being thick in the fog and then he gives these revelations/accounts of 'just how bad' it (supposedly) is, it helps keep 'the ball in the air' as you say by keeping me hooked with the 'I can't just 'leave him' in this' feeling, along with a dual-rationalization, that is it helped rationalize things for the both of us.
"We place ourselves in a position where we have no right to ask questions and where there are no checks and balances and protections for our self."
This is true - we have 'no right' to ask questions, and when we do - that is usually the 'beginning of the end', and I can see that. As I wouldn't be surprised if that contributed to 'the ending', I had started asking questions, having expectations...which as we all know have no 'place' in an A.
If I had to summarize and simplify the progression of the A, it probably started with the ID shift/stress in my life, shortly after I had met xMM and how xMM seemed 'so perfect for me' in terms of that ID shift (we started out 'friendly', but there was an attraction there that we chose to ignore at first and then later to not walk away from), he also provided an outlet and an indirect way to both deal with the stress and hide from it. I set myself up to fall hard for those 'what are the odds/I've never met someone like you'. Que fog and falling head-over-heals (or, feeling like I did), deep in that fog I learn more specifics about his M, it becomes a frequently discussed topic, which leaves me feeling as I'd said, trapped. I fell for the 'I need you/this would be so much worse without you/thank you for being there for me'. Also, if I have to 'reach back' to my past - I've always been 'that friend', the one that everyone seems to feel comfortable opening-up to, so it was a 'natural role' in a way. But really, not so much because in true friendships I can do some leaning as well - this whole thing has shown that! I have some close friends who have leaned on me in the past, and after all of this I have been able to lean on them. In this instance, I could do no leaning, I had no right. He mentioned feeling bad about that, and perhaps in the end he really did feel guilty about 'doing a lot of leaning' and taking, but giving little back. I'll never really know, and it's not something I can dwell on as it won't change anything. Anyway, then towards the ending I was having a rough patch of my own, this time I needed him - especially because I had given so much of my time/energy to 'patch him up' that I left none for myself. I felt lost, and it made it all the worse when he 'couldn't be there for me' because he was 'dealing with his own issues' (wasn't he always?). This is when I started to ask questions, wonder about things, have expectations. But, there were some questions I didn't ask (regarding some 'red flags' I had seen) - I never did, because I knew if I did everything would come to a screeching halt. While I wanted it to in many ways, in others I wasn't quite ready. I had gotten to the point where I didn't want or like the dynamics of the A, but had yet to get to the point where I 'didn't want him', I was afraid of 'losing him' but also knew there was no other choice to be had. I didn't want it to go on any longer, I knew it couldn't (for my own health and life) but I didn't know how to end it. Instead, after a stressful weekend, he did. He called 'the end', but not NC. The NC has been my choice since he still wanted me 'as a friend', to know 'how I was doing'. But, that was never the dynamic we had 'just friends', and I knew I would get way less than I ever did before and he would still get the emotional support and ego-strokes that he always got, and I would have the 'cold comfort' of feeling like I was 'kind of important'...but in the end, not really.
So, I'm not really sure if I answered your question there...but, I think it was a bit of a start?
Thanks for the hugs! And, a big 'thanks to everyone' and this board in general. Yesterday was a tough day, it marked one week and digging through all of this (alleged) abuse stuff made for a difficult and emotional day. I wanted to reach out and 'see how he was', tell him I miss/love him...or something. But I came here and read instead, reminded myself that it would do me no good - even if I did get contact back, I don't want to 'go back there'.
'It may be that when we no longer know what to do,
We have come to our real work,
And that when we no longer know which way to go,
We have begun our real journey'
- Wendell Berry
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