love and trust...and letting go
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| Thu, 01-15-2004 - 12:20am |
for years i believed in the love we had...we both felt that we were completely and totally in tune with each other....we were so merged when we were together, and i don't mean only when we were together sexually....it was any time that we were together...we could have been having dinner, or just sitting and talking with my head on his shoulder and his arm around me, at a movie, or even many times during phone conversations.....we could actually feel ourselves connected in our hearts and souls....it was actually amazing many times...and i know that many people here on the board have felt all of these feelings, but that doesn't mean that what we experienced wasn't true and real....i believe for many of us, and for myself, it was......
what i'm sad about right now is that i don't even know if i would have ended our affair had it not been for how much he lied to me.....and i think i'm angry at him for not being a more forthright person....it was a strange combination...knowing and believing that he loved me (and i still believe he did), while also knowing that he lied about many things, but still actually knowing he loved me....i know that his lying was not meant to hurt me, but at the same time, he didn't have the character or integrity to be straight and honest with me all the time because he was more interested in protecting himself and his life than he was in honoring the love that we had, and ultimately, as is bound to happen, i began to doubt everything he did and said, as he had completely obliterated any trust that was originally there.....and each time the trust was broken, i tried to regain it and go on, continued being loving and understanding, but there were just one too many times, and i just began to see him differently.....although the love was still there, i think at the end i was loving the man i had met in the beginning, not this man who had lied to me and hurt me so many times.....after a while, i wondered who he really was....by the end, i was sure of nothing, always trying to read in between his words and actions, knowing he loved me, but not understanding how he could have behaved in those ways, and knowing that love can't ultimately survive when the trust is gone......
i'm sad tonight for what was and is no longer, and i'm having a moment of wondering what could have been ........if only.....everything....and i suppose everyone...were different.......ada

You are in the exact same spot that I am. I take it that you had a long term affair too. I try to keep remembering these words that one of my favorite authors wrote - a person can be behaviorally deficient and still love you. If you think about it, that is so true. I look back at my sister's behavior all the years she was drinking. She was a pain in the butt back then and I didn't like to be around her. She's been sober now for awhile and all her goodness can come through now. She probably loved her family just as much when she was drinking. It's just that the alcohol got in the way and she was behaviorally deficient at that time. My MM is a weak and lost man - that is his behavioral deficiency. I believe he is still capable of loving me. It's just that I, too, no longer believe anything he says because of that behavioral problem. People can have bad behavior and still have love. My MM has lied about stupid little things so much to avoid conflict that I found myself reading between his lines too. I found that doing so serves no purpose for myself and you can't figure out a behavioral deficiency. He does not have the same strength of character and integrity that I do. I no longer see him in the same way either. I don't think that is an affair thing... I eventually saw my XH for who he was too. These are just people with problems. The sad thing is that we allowed ourselves to get caught up in their problems. Well, when I met my MM, I was having my own problems in my marriage...bad combination. I think my MM lies about little things to avoid uncomfortable stuff and to passively try to control his life that he feels he has no control over...again, unhealthy behavioral deficiencies...not anything to do with love for me.
I totally know what you are feeling and it is so sad.
Bird
my struggle, or one of them anyway, was whether or not to take that understanding i had of him combined with the love i felt for him, and just know that he loved me (which i know he did), and allow for his behavioral deficiencies.......and i did try to do that for so long, but i couldn't keep it up any longer....i need someone who will be honest with me, if nothing else.....without honesty, after a while it's hard to know which end is up at any given moment....i need to know where i stand, even if where i stand is not where i want to be.....at least i'm not spending all of my time guessing about everything......
i actually don't believe i would have done him a favor by staying with him.....whether or not he's ever going to do it, he needs to come to terms with the actualy reality of his life, and i'm not talking only about his marriage.....i mean the reality of who he is and why he's so unhappy and unfulfilled......i was just another person in his life that he had to jump through hoops for and change his appearance for to make love him....he just didn't realize that i loved him anyway, and i wanted more than anything to be the one person in his life he could be straight with.....but he couldn't do it.....and then i began realizing that even if i had gotten what i wanted, and we could be together full time, that he would still be the same....it wasn't the affair that was making him lie, it was just him.....he's in therapy, as i am, and i had asked him to work on his lying in therapy and try to get to the bottom of it, but he never addressed it there......and i don't know if he'll ever be able to do that......because the truth is, that except for the really big lies, he doesn't think those other things are lies at all......he doesn't see them as problems.....he just sees them as bending the truth just enough to keep everyone happy with him, and he doesn't see the problem with that.....it's a form of narcissism, and i've read and learned a lot about that personality type since we've split up....it's been interesting and helped me understand things even more.....
bird, where are you now in all of this?.....are you still involved with MM, or has it been over?......i couldn't tell from your post, and i find it difficult to go back and search for a certain member's posts by their name....i wish there were a way to do that....it would make it so easy to learn more about someone here......if you get a minute, maybe you can fill me on where you are.....thanks...ada
I know what you mean about the little white lies. My MM doesn't even think he lies either and he gets really offended if you say that. He's got to be Mr. Congeniality at all times. He can't tell anyone the truth because "he wouldn't be liked". Or, so he thinks. When I told him that my girlfriend had guessed correctly about our affair, he was more concerned over whether or not she would think he was a jerk...he wasn't concerned about his W finding out or anything...just if he looked bad to someone he barely knows. The trouble with his lies was - the truth was never as bad as the cover-up. So after awhile, you start questioning everything. I don't, however, question his love for me. I've observed him around other people and noticed that he always polishes the sh!+ with them too. Narcissism trait? Hmmmmmm, never thought of it that way. But, it would kind of fit. My MM can be very self-centered...he kind of had to be in order to survive his childhood.
I didn't type the rest of the author's words in the first post. But, this is the whole paraphrase...
"A person can love you and still have behavioral deficiencies. You need to either love that person in spite of their deficiencies - or, let them go."
Last week, I got offended when my MM basically said, "if you don't like the way I am, find someone else." At first I thought that was childish and self-centered of him to say that. Couldn't he change for me, especially when it's in his best interest...because I know what's better for him? :) Then, I realized that he was right. Kind of mean to say it - but, right, none the less. Now that I know him inside and out - I don't know if I love that person anymore. Pulling away is getting easier and harder at the same time (if that makes any sense). I think I see so much more than he sees. My MM would never step foot in therapy (like a lot of men). Does he need it - Oh, God does he need it. But, he would never let that wall down because it might open the flood gates of his childhood (alcoholic step-dad, emotional abuse, death of bio-father, etc.) I think if my MM would start believing that he's really a good person with options in life - he probably wouldn't think he needed to lie anymore. Now, when he gives me these stupid excuses for things he does/doesn't do, I just say, "OK" and move on to another topic. I don't believe most of the stuff...hard to make a relationship on that. My XH also had his huge deficiencies and it took me 13 years to figure that one out. We all have different deficiencies...it's just some are more of a deal breaker than others.
I know that I am definitely not helping my MM by continuing to see him. I think he will either have another affair after I leave or he will leave his marriage. My girlfriend (the only one who knows) and some wise people here have both told me that I allow him to stay in a bad marriage and avoid his problems. I thought that *I* was the one who was so fearful of life. Guess again...the big, strong guy is really the weaker one. But, I have my behavioral deficiency too. I keep wondering whether or not the crumbs are better than nothing. I've been separated for 3 years now. I'm lonely. I am shy and don't meet a lot of men...especially, single ones. MM and I met by chance. I keep thinking that I need a man. I know I'm not the only woman that has that deficiency. Just look at probably 1 out of every 2 women. However, just 'cause I have a popular deficiency, it is one just the same. I am working on that every day. I really think that is why I haven't moved on in my affair. I am giving myself time to truly get over this 'I need a man to define me' problem that I have had all my life. If I started NC and moved on to the next guy, I would never make any lasting changes in my life. This time around, my lessons will be lasting...I learned them the slow and painful way...those are the most lasting.
Ada, ya think we have the same MM? At least they kind of sound like brothers ;)
Bird
Thank you
Lostit
believe me, nothing you can say to me will sound juvenile....i often am amazed at some of the things i've done these past years, some of which i wouldn't tell anyone because of how obsessive and desperate they were......honestly, you were talking about how while you were studying last weekend (how did the test go, btw?) you began to feel "sane" again, and you began to feel a sense of normality and increased self-esteem.....all i can say to that is that in the last week or two, i have felt like i was emerging from being in a total drug-induced haze.....it was like feeling that i had been living in a mild-altered state, and now i was coming out of the worst part of withdrawal and seeing things clearly for the first time in a long time.......it was a very strange feeling, because it wasn't until this that i realized how much of a trance i'd been in all this time.....and i truly believe it's the trance of "being in love"....there are many writings about how the state of "being in love" is considered a state of madness, and i have to agree with that !...it can be a wonderful madness, but it is definitely a form of illusion that we enter into.....and that is what i feel i've just emerged from.....and like you said, am seeing everything clearer, not necessarily meaning that everything i thought was real is not, etc.....just that i'm looking at everything without the rose-colored glasses on......
i know what you mean about wanting your MM to just make your life alright and solve all of your problems....i found myself falling into that earlier in the relationship....when we fell in love early in the affair, i just thought that it would follow that two people who felt this strongly about each other would do anything it took to be together...i wanted to give him all of the things he longed for.....a loving partner, a best friend, and even would have given him a child (he has one from his previous marriage whom he adores but he didn't have the experience of being a full time father, which he wanted more than anything).....for me, that's what loving someone this deeply means......i wanted to give him everything he needed and was lacking all of these years.....and i just assumed that if someone loved me that much, they'd want to give me all of those things, as well......i spent most of the following years trying to believe he loved me even though he wouldn't do what it would take to be with me permanently.....he was torn apart by all of this, but was too weak to make the changes....unfortunately, struggling with that was hard enough, but then piling his other behaviors on top of that just left me feeling insecure about his feelings all of the time.......ultimately, deep down, i've always known he loved me, but when you have to spend most of your time having to remind yourself of how much someone loves you, even though their actions make you feel otherwise, it just becomes too difficult, and eventually you just start to become numb, and as you said, you begin to fade away......
how has "the future" played a role in your relationship? have you been hopingthat you and MM are going to wind up together permanently someday?, and if so, was that something he also wanted?
i understand what you mean about knowing your MM inside and out, and how you're now wondering how you really feel about him.....god, i agonized over that for so long.....how could i still love him so deeply if i know all of these things about him?......after the first, fifth, tenth lie, shouldn't i have just begun to feel like i didn't want to be with him any more?....and sometimes i would feel like that, but for moments only.....i honestly have never been really angry at him, or ever felt i hated him.....that's hard for me to understand.....but i think that just speaks to the complexity of love and how we can hate some things that a person does and still love the person......as the quote says, you need to either love that person in spite of their deficiencies, or let them go.....it's very very true......and i know i still love him in spite of it all, but it could never work in the affair situation any longer.....i've wondered over and over what i would do if he ever did want to be with me permanently....knowing all that i know about him, would i even want to?......it's a difficult question to answer......
i can totally relate to you saying you're not sure if the crumbs are better than nothingat all......i've been in that place so many times, and at the beginning of NC that feelings intensifies soo much because when you're wounded you'll do almost anything to stop the pain.....you begin the non-stop rationalizing about how it wasn't so bad, and really, you did get so much out of the relationship, and if you really loved him then you would stick with him through thick and thin, yada, yada, yada.......and temporary dimentia sets in, as your discomfort at being without him blinds you to all of the times you hurt and were lonely and wanted so much more for yourself.......but i have to say, if you can get push yourself through those early stages of NC, and i never thought i'd ever be saying this, but the fog does start to clear.......and you begin to slowly regain some of your old self, in bits and pieces....and yes, you're absolutely right.....starting NC and then just moving on to someone new is self-defeating.....i find the very beginning of NC to be the time i'm most tempted to just find a man, at least as a friend, just someone that i can get some male attention from.....it's very tempting at the beginning......i actually did find someone through a web group that i was interested in talking with, and we emailed and IM'd for a little while, and we actually connected emotionally......but he's married, and again is not leaving his wife......and i said, what the hell am i doing......my entire body just told me just leave it alone......you can survive without it for now....i'm going to be 45 next week, and i think it's finally time i figure out how to be ok, i mean really ok, if there is no man in my life....and that's what i'm going to be working on for a while.....
i don't know how long it takes to piece myself back together completely, but i do know it will happen, because i can feel it......i don't know what the future has in store for me, as i'm very unhappily married and trying to find my way out of this marriage..but you have at least gotten to a different point....i envy you being separated for 3 years, already having gotten through that stage......
it sounds to me like you are a very aware person, and have what it takes to eventually get out of the affair AND conquer your need for a man to define you......the fact that you're aware of this is half the battle.....have you ever considered therapy?...it can be very good, but you need to have a good therapist, and you sound like someone who is ready to do the work to move forward in your life.....i'm reading "How to Break your Addiction to a Person" (for the second time)....it's a great book for people in our situation, and i highly recommend it.....
as far as meeting other men......honestly, i think your main focus right now needs to be continuing to work on creating a life for yourself that is fulfilling with or without a man.....i'm beginning to believe that it's only when we actually stop looking for fulfillment through other people and find it within ourselves, that eventually the love we've always deserved comes our way......believe me, i've heard that so many times, and i used to think it was BS but i don't any more....right now, i don't think i ever want to feel THAT needy again, i actually WANT to be over that needy feeling, and for the first time in my life i'm feeling like i want to find a way to be emotionally self-sufficient....not to say that sharing life with someone i love someday is no longer something i want.....i do want it, but i don't want to NEED it.....i envy people who are already that healthy!...
and you and i can be that healthy too....we just have to work on it!.......
so, have we solved the problems of the world yet??
You asked a few questions in your last post - so, here are my answers. I'm a resident old-timer around here that never learned her lessons in life too fast...I'm a slow learner. I will save you the trouble of going back through the archives for my story and give you the cliff note version here (even though everyone here has heard it 1000 times before and probably wishes I'd just move on already). We were both in unhappy marriages when we met. We fell in love and I managed to get out of my bad marriage a year after the affair started. He left his marriage a year after that and moved in with me for 8 months. Neither one of us were ready for that kind of relationship (he should have moved out on his own first) and we blew it by arguing all the time. His guilt and my insecurity took its toll and he moved back home. His W and my XH don't know about our affair. He was supposedly living in an apt. his brother owns when he was living with me. He's been back home for the last year and a half. His brother rented the apt., so he doesn't have an easy alibi anymore.
So, your questions...
Were we planning a future together? \
Not at first. It just sort of happened and then we talked more seriously about it. I left my marriage because I was unhappy before the A and *really* unhappy after. I knew that I could never seriously rebuild with my H when I was in love with another man. I didn't see those feelings changing anytime soon. I believed that my H had a right to be with someone that loved him - not someone that was cheating on him. We were separated for three years and than legally divorced last summer. It is an amicable split for the most part. We have a child, so I see him regularly. I think subconsciously I was hoping that MM would follow my lead. I don't regret my decision (at least most times I don't). I got married for the wrong reason...to be with someone...anyone...not a good idea, looking back on it. My MM never said that he would leave when I did - never said he would stay either. Eventually, he moved out a year after me.
Do I/Did I hope we would wind up together permanently?
In the beginning, that is what I definitely wanted. Now, I've ridden the rollercoaster so many times that the thought of another ride kind of makes me nauseous, if you know what I mean. He really killed everything...his marriage, our relationship, my trust. His vascillation has made me almost to the point of saying forget it. If he wanted to move out again next weekend and in with me, I'm not sure what I'd say. I am almost 100% sure that will not happen - so, I don't even really waste energy thinking about it anymore. I love him - but, what you said is really right - about them having too many other problems on top of the problems of having an affair. It kind of puts it over the top.
Have I ever been in therapy?
Oh God, yes, sweetheart. I also wrote the book on being a self-help diva. I started going to therapy shortly after my affair started. My marriage was really in the gutter. I tried to get my then-H to go to MC and he refused. I begged him to go because I could see my new relationship with MM going towards the physical track. H wouldn't have any part of it - would rather get back at me by just saying that I was the one with all the problems and I had already 'emotionally' left our marriage anyway. So, I cheated. Not justified - just explained. My therapist thought that MM would eventually leave his marriage too...he said maybe not before I got sick of him - but, MM was not happy and had a lot of issues. Or, therapist thought he would continue to have affairs to avoid a bad marriage. I agree with therapist. My therapist was also suprised that I had the guts to get out of my bad marriage and never waver back and forth. He said that a lot of people with kids stay in bad marriages and never get the strength up to get out...the unknown is too scary for people. My MM would never go to therapy even though he could use it worse than me. I've done a ton of self-improvement work in the past 5 years. MM, on the other hand, next to zippo. My XH - nothing either. After XH and I split up for six months (mutally agreed on separation), he all of the sudden decides he wants to try MC. By that time, I said no way. I wasn't willing to give up MM and couldn't see the point if I wasn't going to try 100%. The affair had gone too far. I don't see therapist anymore (insurance and lack of time). I keep in touch, though. And, if my depression gets too bad, I know where he is. I have the book you mentioned - but, haven't read it. I think I'll drag it out this weekend.
How was my test last weekend?
Ok, if I tell you guys the specifics and MM or XH find out about this board, they will know it's me with everything. Oh well, I guess I'll take that chance...there's always denial...man, how i've honed that skill to perfection :(
My test went great. I passed. I got my certification to be a personal trainer. I still need to do more classes because I want to get more knowledgeable before I ever charge anyone money for weight training. The reason it was so important to me was that it was probably the first thing that I have done just for me...at least in the last 10 years...maybe ever. It has absolutely nothing to do with my actual career. It is just an interest and down the road I may want to change professions. I also would like to go to school for massage therapy or physical therapy. I'm sick of being a computer nerd. It was the single most empowering experience during this whole affair time. I sent my son to my mom's and was completely indulged in *me* the whole weekend. The test material was intense, though. I think my MM would love to be a personal trainer, too (damn, he has such a good body...I'm really going to miss that :( But, I'm the one moving forward towards my dreams. I'm the one spending my time discovering happiness now. MM didn't get around to signing up for the courses/test...yeah, maybe I'll take it with you...well, the time isn't that convenient...I've got stuff to do that weekend...blah, blah, blah. Well, at least I know that his 'do nothing' behavior isn't limited to our affair. He procrastinates with everything and acts like he's going to be living for the next thousand years. I, on the other hand, am not. And, I'm going to seize the day. I felt so good after passing that test. MM was NOT the first person I called...I called my parents first...I wanted them to have that priviledge. I not only passed - I got in the 90%. I passed with flying colors. So, the sky's the limit now. I know what happiness feels like. I remember what it feels like. And, for the first time, that happiness did NOT come from someone else. I think I've been co-dependent since birth :) These are strange new feelings for me - but, ones that I'm finding peace and comfort in. I know that I am recovering and discovering myself. I plan to become more passionate about my other interests, too. Do you believe that I actually have interests?...neither did I :) I forgot about them for awhile...I was too busy with other more trivial pursuits :)
I need to get back to work now. I'm also finding myself more focused at work and more productive. That feels good too. You mentioned that you are in a bad marriage. What keeps you there? Do you have any kids? Are any at home? I think anyone can change their situation if they put their mind to it. Just start with baby steps in a direction that you think you want to go. You can always change directions later if you are going down the wrong path. Whatever you do, just don't stand still...moss will start to grow on you and that looks ugly and is really uncomfortable :)
Bird
after so many years of living in this emotional wasteland, it was no wonder that when i met someone who offered me everything i craved so unbelievably intensely, someone to whom i felt deeply connected to, who offered me all of the love, affection and attention i had been craving, that i didn't hold back for a second......now, 2 months after we've ended our relationship, after 35 days of NC, i seem to be going backwards.....i was feeling better a couple of weeks ago, and now i'm falling apart all over again.....i'm missing him terribly, miss talking with him oh so much, and thinking way too often about how much i miss making love with him......i have really got to get that out of my mind, because it's beginning to drive me crazy......i think the fact that at age 40 (when i met MM) i had, for the first time in my life, experienced a relationship complete with emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy, it is unbelievably depressing to realize that i have no idea when, if ever, i'm going to experience anything like that again....i often think that might have been it for me.....
you asked what's keeping me in my marriage......i've seriously wanted a divorce for about 9 years.....i have three children, all at home....the oldest will start college next year, and the other two are in middle school.....there were always financial difficulties, and divorce would have been disastrous financially years ago....i had stayed home with my kids, which wasn't the smartest thing to do financially, but at the time, due to my upbringing and the beliefs of my parents, family, working while having small children was something i never even considered, although that probably would have been the best thing for me in more ways than financially....i had a work at home business, but earned a minimal amount...so my long term goal was to get a stable career for myself so that i'd be able to see my way clear to divorcing.....and i spent the last 8 years doing just that.....went back to school at night, while i worked at home and raised my kids, all the while waiting, waiting, waiting to see the light at the end of the tunnel...i've been working full time in that career for a year and a half now, and for the first time was thinking i was going to begin the process of changing my life soon.....i had even gone to see a lawyer for a consultation, etc...and my husband has known for a few years that i don't plan on staying married to him forever, and he is at the point where he knows that's what we should do as well.....but as john lennon said, life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans......my husband lost his job about 5 months ago, and now everything about my life is just in limbo once again......now i'm just waiting, waiting, waiting for him to find a job, and then get out of the debt we're getting into while he's not working.....i must get another degree to continue with my career, which is on hold because i'm hoping to be able to pay for it soon instead of take out more loans to do so.....so i'm sort of trying to have a new plan....i'll be starting school this summer, and will take loans if i have to, and i'll have my degree 20 months later, and a nice salary increase in 2 1/2 years.... with any luck, my H will be earning something decent again, and divorce will be financially feasible.....at that point, since i won't have to be going to school any more, i'm figuring i'll get a second job if i have to......i just can't live like this any longer.....and maybe i'm not supposed to hope for these things, but i do still hope that i will find someone to share my life with some day.....
i know so well what you mean about being surprised to find you have any interests....when the A ended, i had very similar thoughts to yours....i was trying to remember what i used to like to do??.....i had always tinkered with things, but realized i had never gotten passionate about anything.....i'm working on trying to find at least one thing that i enjoy that isn't about work or my kids.....
you sound like you're moving in the right direction in so many ways, bird......i'm glad for you and wish you continued feelings of happiness, all brought to you by you.....thanks for listening, and enjoy your sunday :) ada