Never-comitting Ex-lover married

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Never-comitting Ex-lover married
20
Tue, 09-21-2004 - 4:56am
Hi all,

I don't know whether this is the right board, but it's to do with an ended affair, it's a weird situation and I have a problem with it, so here it goes:

About a year ago (I'm married for a year now) I had a torrent, passionate affair with a man/soulmate who made it clear from the start that he was the non-marrying type (although we frequently talked about what kind of rings we'd have, in case etc.). It was his life's hard-and-fastest principle for over 40 years (we were both about 42 when we met). At the time, he had had a steady partner for 6 years, but didn't know how dissatisfied he was with his life in general until he met me. I loved hard, fought hard, and lost hard: He would not even make me "official", although stating he loved me so very much (which I felt to be the truth). It was a grand drama, and after 1 1/2 years it came to a head: I found a good man who wanted me for life, but I still could not let go of my affair - he was such an important person to me, in every respect. One month before my marriage, my affair left his long-term-partner and me in a span of 2 days, saying he needed to get on his feet again. I tried to maintain some kind of contact, but he'd written me completely out of his books - which I could never understand, because we'd been best friends as well as best lovers...

It's been a bit over a year since, and I have made some progress in not feeling such a dire, desperate need for his words and his touch. It was so hard, but I was on the right road.

Now, 2 days ago, I got to know that he got MARRIED this August. He had made it official on the website of the firm he works for - complete with picture of the happy couple and all - in a space of the website where he usually has a commentary (3 times a year) to do with the firm. News of his marriage did not fit in there - especially as he states there that the wedding was very private... I can't see why he did that. I would not want to think he guesses that I still look at his column from time to time; I know I'm of no importance to him whatsoever any more. His wife is not his former partner, it's a woman I don't know. Good-looking, they make a nice, very fitting pair.

It quite floored me. I was sitting there with trembling knees and a life-threatening heartbeat-rate, not wanting to know at all: Turns out, it wasn't the commitment he shied, but he didn't want ME. This man, who told me once, if he ever entertained thoughts about marriage, I'd be the first woman he'd come to with those thoughts - this man, who never gave us a chance because of his principles - this man wrecks 2 perfectly good women in his own mind-clensing-process, then goes off, barely a year later, to MARRY. The atrocity! I'm furious with myself for feeling this way... I have a happy marriage (although I could never talk to my husband the way I talked to my affair), I have a very good life - and still I get so upset, mad + sad about this "betrayal" (that is none) that I lie awake at night, thinking: "What has she what I haven't got? How come this man who didn't want a full relationship with me, when we fit so perfectly in every respect (he felt this, too), when we were as close as 2 people can ever get - how come he can love another so much more as to marry her?

I don't want to feel this way, I want to see it for what it is: Just an insult, an offense to my (misguided, in this respect) pride. I think what hurts most is to know now that he can't have been truthful when he told me he loved me so much. All those words + deeds, all this drama + pain, all this love + passion - for nothing? Dust in the wind? All my feelings (the strongest I ever had in my life) ridiculed? I feel such a dumb nut, so silly, so ashamed I, then, threw my life and my being for all it was worth at his feet and now he as much says to me (wink, wink): "Tricked you there, now, didn't I? Don't take it too hard girl, turned out there was someone better than you. Just forget about all we had. Wasn't so much, anyway..." I feel terrible. The banality of it all - and no one is the least interested in what I now feel - and rightly so: It should not concern me at all...

Have any of you had similar experiences? How did you get to grips with your feelings? What can I do to start some christian/reasonable thinking, telling myself, "It's nice that he's happy now (having loved him so much, I should be happy he's happy)" and NOT "I wish he'd have sufferd for the loss of me for the rest of his life and then gone as an old, lonely alcoholic tottering to an early grave ;-)These last thoughts are so detrimental to my soul's well-being...

Any suggestions? I'd be SO thankful,

Marion.

Pages

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 8:43am
Hi Posie,

you are right, let's state this first - and let me thank you for your post, which is just as valuable to me as all the others who sympathise and have gone through the same. I wrote here because I want + need different angles.

But, don't throw morals so easily: I feel you misunderstood me a bit there. I did not lie to, deceive and betray anyone I loved while I was with this man, and I did not encourage him to do so. When I started this affair, I was single; and I always urged that he'd tell his steady partner about us, so that she would be in the know and could make an informed decision - but I also left this up to him entirely. It was none of my business to enlight his partner, I felt; that would me making everything worse. It was a very hard decision to become his lover, and to stay although I knew his other woman was being deceived, believe me. (That she never missed anything because of my presence I felt to be of no importance.)

As for blinding love-goggles: I don't wear them. I just want to understand how he could move on so well and I can't, how he could lie to me and deceive me, in spite of the fact that I firmly believe I had my eyes wide open all the time. I just want(ed) truth, ever, and he didn't give me truth. I just want to understand why I could not see that. Either he was the man I knew or he is someone I never knew (the one who married now) - and if I never knew him, my love for him was just a farce. To acknowledge that is hard.

After a couple of days, I did understand that his wife (and what she does etc.) does not concern me in the least. I came that far quite qickly.

I told in my first post that I have too much spare time I'm desperately trying to fill, and it pains me terribly to have no work (although excellent education and manifold work-experiences), no kids to care for, no real challenges in life any more. No one seems to want/need me at this point in my life, and I feel very down about it. I often find myself in tears, because people I get to know don't seem to find me interesting/nice as they did when I was younger. Little children sometimes make me cry... I try not to be self-pitying - but I've lost such a lot of people and important things in my life these last years... it just overwhelms me sometimes. But I also always was past-orientated, more than future-embracing. It's my character, and it's a lifelong fight for me. Don't read me wrong: I'm not just a stupid housewife hanging onto her has-beens.

I value my husband greatly and let him always know how much he and the things he does mean to me. I know what I have in him, and he gets hugged quite a lot ;-) But when you lose a human being that has been so very dear to you, that can never be replaced, you grieve, and I believe you feel the loss for the rest of your life. You go through other, open doors (as I did) - but, blessed/cursed with a memory, as we all are, you may forgive (if there is something to forgive), but you won't forget, will you?

And you are so right: I need a new, really worthy reason for my life now.

Thanks again and all the best for you,

M.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-17-2004
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 9:19am
Did you happen to catch Oprah the other day?
Sanguine
Visitor (not verified)
anonymous user
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 10:10am
Hiya Womaninthewoods,

<<>>

I'm not aware of throwing any morals around. I was stating the issues as I saw them in relation to the facts as you've posted them. Given that I am an exOW who had a 3.5yr EMA which produced my now 22mos old daughter whom DH & I are raising as a family as we attempt to rebuild our marriage, I'm acutely aware I'm amongst the last to be entitled to stone throwing. I think I understood perfectly well, as it happens.

<<>>

If this were so, then you were both single and unattached. If either of you were attached, then there was lying, deception and betrayal unless, of course, exOM's partner were party to and fully aware of all aspects your relationship.

<<>>

By entering into and not ending this affair, regardless of your own single status, you enabled exOM to lie to, deceive and betray his partner. Certainly, it was his decision whether or not to inform his steady partner, just as it was your decision to continue to aide and abet his lying, deception and betrayal for your own benefit.

<<>>

However hard or difficult a decision it was, it most certainly was a decision. You made an active choice to enable exOM to lie, to deceive and betray his partner. It's not pretty, and I was most certainly every bit as guilty of doing the exact same thing, but it is the truth. These things do not just happen. There are choices made, often a series of choices, which lead to us finding ourselves in the sack with someone elses' partner.

<<>>

Yes, you do. You are in love with your image of who he is rather than the person he actually is.

<<>>

He has moved forward and allowed the past to become just that, the past. You appear to have marked time by marching in place. Perhaps you held out hopes he would one day come to his senses, come riding by on his white horse to rescue you from the tower?

<<<...how he could lie to me and deceive me, in spite of the fact that I firmly believe I had my eyes wide open all the time. I just want(ed) truth, ever, and he didn't give me truth.>>>

He had no difficulty in lying to his partner at the time, why would you imagine it would be any more difficult to lie to you, too? It took me awhile to understand this, too, since exOM & I always swore we would be truthful to one another. We weren't, but the fantasy, the illusion of honesty amongst all the lies satisfied us both at the time. Such things are often called "lover's lies" and are part & parcel (if not the actual fabric) of the fantasy bubble from which EMA's are constructed.

<<>>

Because it does not suit us to see the truth when we wish to believe otherwise and so we shield our eyes with the famous love goggles/rose coloured glasses.

<<>>

He is someone you never knew outside the construct of a fantasy bubble where real life and our real day to day selves must not intrude lest the bubble burst. Many of us expend a great deal of time & energy preserving that bubble to our own emotional and even physical detriment. Understanding that you were in love not with him, but with whom he allowed you to see and whom you wanted to see is a major step forward.

<<>>

Yes, it is. It is also the first step on the path to real recovery.

<<>>

You have a void within you that aches to be filled - a feeling of something or someone missing. Like many of us, you have sought to fill it with another person and this can sometimes seem as though it is filling the void when in reality it's simply putting a bandaid over a gaping wound which needs stitching. The truth is the only person who is capable of filling that void is you. No one else can complete you, Womaninthewoods, and it's a terrible burden to place upon someone's shoulders if you expect them to do it for you. Individual counselling has been enormously beneficial to me in addressing this very problem - I strongly recommend it.

<<>>

When we do not value ourselves, it is difficult to value anyone who loves us. Love that you have to work for is not more precious than love that is simply there. Knowing what you have and being able to fully appreciate the incredible beauty of unconditional love are two very different things. Given my upbringing, it took a great deal of individual counselling for me to understand this concept.

<<>>

In reality, you lost this person some time ago. What you are faced with now is the certainty that any hopes or dreams you may have held are truly at an end. And yes, that does require some grieving. When you understand that what you have lost is only a false perception of someone, it becomes somewhat easier to deal with.

<<>>

When you go through open doors without truly letting go of the closed ones, we don't get very far in moving forward. Clinging to the closed door impedes progress. I choose not to forget my experiences. I've chosen to learn from them in order that I'm never again tempted let alone doomed to repeat them.

<<>>

What's stopping you? :)

Wishing you strength & peace,

Posie

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Sat, 09-25-2004 - 5:48am
Hi Posie,

thanks again for your long post in which you are truly looking at what I'm saying and reflecting it - I never had anyone do this for me as concerns this affair, it simply was too secret to tell a lot of people, and the ones I told, just were impatient with me very soon ;-) as I can understand.

I can see you HAVE moved on a bit and I congratulate you - it's quite an achievement, looking at your difficult situation. But, having arrived at this point where you worked out what you needed to for yourself, you now come over to me (UNDERSTANDABLY) quite hard and merciless for those of us which are not yet there... you are very convinced (and convincing) in your now-found conclusions and opinions about affairs/lying etc. and you don't leave any room for a softer and more differentiated view. This was what felt to me like you were "throwing around morals".

I accept your shredding my arguments, but I can't see my affair as clear-cut as you do. As humans, we all make mistakes. As humans, we (ideally) put love above all else, and, out of this feeling, we betray/lie/deceive. Yes, I do still feel guilt, but I can also say I would never have this, one of the happiest times of my life, undone. He may have been untruthful, I may have made thewrong decisions, I may have deceived myself, may have lowered my moral standards; in hindsight it may all have been just a banal farce -- but I loved this man truly, and I will never really know if he was a lier or if he (after our affair) changed to be another man, re-invented himself. I can judge myself - but I simply cannot judge him the way you do; I did not know him long enough for that. If I could be sure I perceived him completely wrong, it would (just as you say) be much easier for me to go forward. I certainly waited for him to come to his senses (and to me) - as for the white horse, I never asked for that, he can't ride and his black Saab would have been enough;-) No, seriously: We all wish for a happy ending, even in the most deluded affairs, don't we? Well, I did.

I never valued myself very highly - I know my talents and intelligence, but I've never felt myself to be a very "valuable" person. I've not done enough for other people in my life and I haven't taken on enough responsibility. It wasn't so hard to find that out for myself - but changing yourself is another story altogether... Counselling... well, I thought about that, but I don't feel strong enough for it at the moment. Maybe I just don't want to face myself as I am now. Maybe I feel it won't help digging up all those roots.

I always knew it is me myself who has to "fill the void", I know no ONE other person can do it for me. But all of us also need a social network, and I don't have one at the moment. I'm working on it, but rejections come often, as I worte. I'm not used to that; I grew up in an unconditional-love family with lots of friends and made quite a few in my own life. Something is seperating me from the world -- my affair seemed to connect me to it in a way I had never been connected before. That surely is one reason why it's still so hard to me to let go completely.

Mostly, stopping me finding new reasons for my life is fear and anguish about making the wrong decisions again (and again...). I don't mind the fall so much - I've taken quite a few downs in my life, not just relationship-related, but there werde illnesses and job-unfortunes, too - it's the getting-up again that is becoming harder and harder to do...

Thank you again for taking such a close look at and care about my feelings - that's worth much more to me than the 2 cents you put as a header. I will look often at what you wrote to me and take courage from your clear words.

Wishing you strength and courage (I think you got loads of that already) and the best of luck for your family.

M.



Visitor (not verified)
anonymous user
Sat, 09-25-2004 - 9:34am
Hiya Womaninthewoods,

"Hard and merciless" *smiles* My thoughts are that there are plenty posters who can, will, and DO offer the (((hugs))) and "there-there, I know how you feel - here is my situation" style sentiments. There are far fewer who will offer something constructive in the way of offering you the opportunity of perceiving your situation in a different light. Both are valid methods of "support."

I've stood where you are standing. There was a point where I was unwilling to remove my own rose coloured glasses and "see" my situation and the participants in it for who and what they truly were and of what they were truly capable. I posted on similar boards and was equally (if not even more!) irked with those who did not wish to see that my own situation was special and there were reasons why MY affair was different, special, unique rather than sordid & tawdy just like every other EMA.

<<>>

There is no "shredding." There is, however, an attempt to gently point you in different directions since your present location by your own admission does not appear to be working for you. I call it like I see it only because without this type of support from those I also perceived as both "hard" and "merciless" pointing out the inconsistencies in my own posts there is every likelihood I'd still be pining for someone who never actually existed except within the confines my own mind.

<<>>

The love goggles are on. Removing them means letting go and you are not prepared to entertain this as a real option yet.

<<>>

Agreed. It is only when we fail to learn from them that we are doomed to repeat or dwell on them.

<<>>

There are no valid reasons to betray/lie/deceive and love would not require these traits in order to flourish. There is a quote by Hugh Elliott which reads: "Just because you love someone does not mean you have to be with them; love is not a bandage to cover wounds." Also Kay Chesterton said something interesting about:- `Even if we have a right to do something, it doesn't make it right that we do it.'

<<>>

It's a step in the right direction that you are able to contemplate this as a possibility.

<<<-- but I loved this man truly,>>> ***

I believe you truly loved who you perceived him to be.

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Regardless of the reasons, you know beyond question he was a liar DURING the affair. Perhaps he re-invented himself into someone honest afterwards?

*** <<>> ***

And herein lays the entire crux of the matter, honey.

<<>>

But you see, no one party is completely wrong. Out of necessity an affair requires a minimum of two co-conspirators. Understand that you made active choices to be with this man who was not free to be with you and that you willingly enabled him to lie, cheat, and betray in order that you could spend that time with him. That's not love and that's not friendship, is it? Something unhealthy in you was attracted to something unhealthy in him and you both acted upon that attraction.

<<>>

Yes we do, and remarkably few of us ever achieve it. I refused what some refer to as "the golden ticket" when I realised that the tempting carrot dangling before me was actually nothing more than a rancid, stinking vegetable - the same that had been dangled before exOM's partner and look where it had gotten her. Even if I did not deserve more or better treatment, well, my baby daughter most certainly did.

<<>>

Most enter into an EMA with low self-esteem (accepting second-best is hardly indicative of healthy self-esteem) and most emerge with even lower self-esteem. It's a lose-lose situation.

<<>>

It is often the case that an affair with the necessity of secrecy and associated shroud of lies has exacerbated that feeling of separation whilst giving the illusion of temporarily filling a void. It is that feeling of connection, however fleeting & regardless of the cost to our integrity, which keeps us hanging in there. It's a vicious circle and one we can only break out of when we wish to do so - most often when remaining in the vicious circle becomes more painful than breaking out of it.

<<>>

Another interesting quote:- "And the day came when the risk to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." ~Anais Nin

We are here for you, Womaninthewoods, many of us have stood where you now stand, have felt as you now feel, and the strength you perceive in us is in simply having survived it.

Wishing you strength & peace,

Posie

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-08-2004
Sat, 09-25-2004 - 11:58am
Frisco-I wanted to add something here and I really do understand your position. Posie and Free are both "tell it like it is" posters and they deal in reality, which can be hard to face. But it's true, they do say the things we need to hear and there are plenty of other posters who will offer you the softer kind of support. Anyway, I wanted to respond to your statement about loving your OM and not knowing if he lied or changed into a different man. I also thought I loved my OM and thought I knew him very well (our A. lasted 12+ years). But I am coming to realize that many intimate phone calls and i.m.'s do not make a relationship and that I truly don't know who he is. I either loved the person I thought he was or the person I wanted him to be. I think the only way you can really know someone is to spend a considerable amount of time with them and to share important life experiences together (births, deaths, illnesses). Almost all of us had to hide our relationships-we couldn't do ordinary things together and most of us had to steal the time. Even in cases where some of us did get to spend alot of time together, it was almost always a temporary situation. So, most of our relationships were a fantasy kind, playing at a "real" relationship and that was probably alot of the appeal. And even though we may have dream of getting together permanently, wasn't that probably just that- a dream? I doubt my relationship would have stood up to the light of day. My marriage is real, definitely not as exciting but I do know in my heart which one of them I could count to be at my side if I had a major ilness or something and I know that's what really matters. I think it's normal for all of us to romanticize-after all if we don't then it was just sordid, right? You don't have to change your thinking overnight but try to slowly put it in its proper perspective (it hurts, unfortunately). It will help you maintain NC. JMHO_Toosmart
iVillage Member
Registered: 09-08-2004
Sat, 09-25-2004 - 12:55pm
Sorry, Woman-I called you Frisco by accident. I get so mixed up here sometimes.
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Mon, 09-27-2004 - 6:10am
Hi Posie,

thank you again - and I love quotations - here are some to do with love that I have found true and helpful:

Love is everything which enhances, enlarges and makes our life more worthwhile. To all heights and depths. Love is as unproblematic as a means of transport. Problematic are only the driver, the passengers and the street.

Franz Kafka

An act of love that fails is just as much a part of the divine life as a act of love that succeeds, for love is measured by fullness, not by reception.

Harold Loukes



The story of a love is not important - what is important is that one is capable of love. It is perhaps the only glimpse we are permitted of eternity.

Helen Hayes

See: I don't think that the road to healing only lies in finding out I loved wrongly, the wrong man, out of the wrong reasons. It also lies in accepting that I DID love, can never take it back and not wishing to take it back. It happened, it's now part of my life and I will never want it undone. Accepting that and seeing it more clearly for what it was (and wasn't) at the same time, that's what I need to do.


If you can't get rid of the skeleton in your closet, you'd best teach it to dance.

George Bernard Shaw

Always loved that quote (always loved G.B.S.). We have to find a way to make our permanent skeletons work FOR, not against us: Take them out, look at them, understand why they're there, see to it that they can't hurt us any more.

From the moment I started to tell pople about it, I stopped seeing my situation as special. I put it in my first post: What happened to me is not unique, it's banal. And I also stated that both "methods" of support (sympathetiv and more critical) are equally valid to me. What I don't go with is the just "sordid & tawdry"-bit: There were golden moments in my affair. (And happiness only ever happens in moments, it never lasts. Contentment, maybe. But happiness, never.) Full stop. If that means you will view me as the rose-coloured-goggled-woman-forever -- well, so be it. I know how it felt at the time; and feelings, to me, are always TRUE, however misguided etc. I can and do put it in perspective and through analysis - but they still stay true.

In my opinion, learning from one's mistakes does not automatically mean you won't repeat them (but this would be a wide-ranging philosophical discussion...). Sometimes in making amistake, you got so much of what you needed that you are prepared to repeat it, against better knowledge... There was a discussion (I forgot on which board) about the drama & excitement (and the value of those) involved in an affair, which drew a huge echo from readers and which, in some posts, highlights the point I made above.

No ;-), I'm not planning on another affair, but I know if I met the same type of man again, it would still be a hard, hard fight... albeit with better arguments now against engaging myself, not least thanks to you, Posie.

Love can well be a bandage to cover wounds: Ask any mistreated child who has later found love in a foster-family, ask anyone who is consoled over the death of a loved one by a loving friend, ask the former soldier who can make better peace with his concience by meeting former "enemies" and finding release of his guilt in a loving reception, ask a jew who has been, out of love and humanity, sheltered, hidden and saved by a German family etc. p.p. Love is so manifold, it appears in so many variations. It does bandage at times.

Yes, my lover WAS a liar. But I also know how tormented he was by that fact: He got seriously ill more than once during our affair. I know this does not constitute an excuse for his lies - but it shows him to be a differentiated, weak human being, like we all are, not just an a**h***. You call it "something unhealthy" - I could never do that. Looking at famous couples like Katherine Hepburn & Spencer Tracy and many other writers (Simone de Bouvoir, Lord Byron, f.ex.), we see that some life-achievements, part of the most famous literature would never have come into being had there not been an "unsuitable relationship"... You'd have to call a LOT of the finest art (paintings, fiction, etc.) unhealthy, because it origins in suffering about betrayal etc. Would you have all this non-existant, because "unhealthy"?

Deceit, lies and cheats were one of my affair and my issues (and it was a big one, which we discussed often) - the love & friendship we felt for one another was on a different level. It happened. The beauty of the other person we saw and felt took the betrayal, lies etc. into account and saw there was no dicipline or morale or common sense enough to keep us apart. There was no cure apart from changing ourselves. I acted, but he understood much earlier than I did.

The Anais Nin quote I will answer by one by Willy Brandt (Germen Ex-chancellor): Defeats steel us - but only if there are not too many of them.

Thanking all writers for being there for me, partaking, and making all that TIME for me, especially you, Posie. The strength I see in you is not just the survival, but the conscious making of decisions for a better, healthier life. Seeing this helps me move forward and deciding myself in favour of more integrity, of a truer Self.

On my way, like you.

Baby is lucky to have a mother like you, Posie.

Love,

M. x





Visitor (not verified)
anonymous user
Mon, 09-27-2004 - 11:25am
Hiya WITW,

There's a saying, and if I knew the author I'd certainly credit him or her but, the saying goes:- You can't polish a turd.

Now you can dress it up however you like, call it whatever you will, but it is and will always be just what it is:- a turd.

An EMA is very much like a turd. It's dirty, smelly, it's base & crude and everyone who goes playing with it gets covered in filth.

All the prettying it up and all the pleasant memories do not alter the fact that in order to partake in your affair, it was necessary to lie and to deceive and to betray.

<<>>

It's certainly not the only road to healing, but accepting the truth is generally a good start. Your relationship was inappropriate, the man was not available to love which necessitated the secrecy (lies & betrayals), and the reasons were justifications for taking what wasn't yours for the taking.

<<>>

No one questions that you felt love for this person. It is fact that the affair cannot be taken back or undone. It is also fact that it happened. Note the grammar is all correctly past tense, WITW. The problem appears to be in magnifying something which is but one single moment in the whole of your life to the point that you are defining yourself in terms of that tiny blip of time. And not wanting to move past that one moment.

<<>>

Amen.

<<>>

I hear you loud & clear. When it's in print, it loses it's shine somehow. I remember thinking the very same thing.

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Believe it or not, it is because I am sympathetic that I seek to point out other views. If I didn't care, I simply wouldn't bother. I'd replace the term "critical" with "constructive," but I agree in principle.

<<>>

Sure there were golden moments but these were at a very high price:- lies, cheating & betrayals. Ignoring that price keeps the moments unsullied at the price of truth. And so on. It's a fairly self-sufficient if rather vicious circle.

<<<(And happiness only ever happens in moments, it never lasts. Contentment, maybe. But happiness, never.) Full stop.>>>

This is wholly unarguable since the terms "happiness" and "contentment" are wholly subjective. How we each define "happiness" & "contentment" and how they might differ varies far too wildly to begin to cover adequately let alone allow us come to any agreement. I understand your point, however, and being a glass-half-full kind of person, I disagree most respectfully. For what it's worth, I consider myself both happy & content on a daily basis.

<<>>

Again, no one questions that you felt love for whoever you perceived & believed this person to be. I have no doubt he was a stellar person, kind to children & animals, helped little old ladies across the road and he just had this teeny-weeny little problem with things like honesty & fidelity. Your feelings may certainly be true enough but when they are based on false perceptions, they are, indeed, misguided.

<<< In my opinion, learning from one's mistakes does not automatically mean you won't repeat them (but this would be a wide-ranging philosophical discussion...).>>>

Agreed wholeheartedly and not even with the philosophical discussion. We have free will therefore having learned that fire does indeed burn, we have the choice to continue placing our hand in the fire as long as we have a hand to put in aforementioned fire. I suppose we could always opt to begin placing the other hand into the fire if we were really that interested in duplicating the burning sensation. Eventually we could simply jump into the fire altogether if we really wanted to do so. I guess I'd hope I might just catch on before that point that it was pretty-much a self-defeating exercise.

<<>>

But is the answer in repeating the mistake? Or is the answer in working out exactly what it was that was so fulfilling and seek to address that in order to achieve that fulfilment without having to repeat the mistake?

<<>>

Meh, drama & excitement is easily achieved. Simply disrobing in a supermarket will guarantee all the drama & excitement you can stand. I'm a performing artist, I have drama & excitement, so it's likely these posts you mention will be refreshingly free of my input.

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These are selfless examples of love. Affairs are inherently selfish. Apples & oranges argument. I notice that in none of your examples are the participants boinking one another behind someone elses' back since that seldom paints such a pretty picture. It's an important, meaningful quote so I'll repeat it: "Just because you love someone doesn't mean you have to be with them, love is not a bandage to cover wounds." Hugh Elliott. Equally, asking someone (in a romantic love rather than a selfless love situation) to *BE* that bandange (whether to heal you, to complete you, to fill your void or any combination of the three) is to place an enormous burden of responsibility on their shoulders.

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Regardless of how ill he was or how tormented he may well have told you he was, he managed the lying, cheating and betraying just fine. There is no question we are all of us flawed. If we accept that it's how we act when no one else is looking that determines our character, what was his character? What was yours? I know my own answers, by the way, but you must find your own.

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I've quoted an oft-repeated saying here on these boards - "something unhealthy in me was attracted to something unhealthy in someone else." What is it you could never do, WITW? Acknowledge there is something unhealthy in you? Or in him? Or that the attraction was unhealthy? If the relationship was healthy, where is it now? Why did it end? Why was it never brought out into the open where it could thrive rather than allowing it to shrivel up and die? I ask these questions not to torment you or cause you pain, but for you to consider other options & possibilities which are pertinent to you and you alone.

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A poster (BWE) on AS pointed out recently:- "Katherine Hepburn was, indeed, a great, academy award winning actress... a master in her craft. But her relationship with Spencer Tracey was an AFFAIR. You can pretty it up all you want because they were beautiful and famous, its still adultery. It may have been highly publicized as "romantic" and a "great love affair"... but there is certainly NOTHING graceful about that, and certainly NOT a true example of what women should be."

If you throw into the pot the knowledge that Spencer Tracy was allegedly both physically & emotionally abusive to both the women in his life, you kind of have to wonder just how healthy, glamourous and healthy that actually was.

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I wouldn't call the art unhealthy, no. The relationships which may have to a greater or lesser extent inspired them, yes. Art is simply art - a depiction of the rich tapestry that is life and is designed to provoke emotion & perhaps introspection. I don't have to lie, cheat & betray *myself* in order to appreciate a particular form of art or the emotions which went into its creation. Nor would I seek to have such art cease to exist since rather than wishing to emulate it, one might equally come to understand reasons why it might not be a good idea to emulate whatever is depicted in a particular art form.

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How great or true is a love or even a friendship when out of necessity it must be shrouded in lies, kept hidden, and would be hurtful to someone outside of that friendship and who loves, trusts and believes in at least one of the friends? Affairs are not about real life, the day to day mundane things like grocery shopping or whose turn it is to do the dishes, and seldom survive outside the rarified atmosphere of the fantasy bubble. If Love is in the giving, the opposite could well be Affairs since they are all about taking.

Hehe - the Willy Brandt quote I'll counter with another Anais Nin:- "Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." I'll even up the ante with another favourite by Ralph Waldo Emerson:- "When it is dark enough you can see the stars."

I love your spirit, WITW, and enjoy our exchanges immensely.

Wishing you strength & peace,

Posie

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Tue, 09-28-2004 - 6:58am
Ahhh, posiepops, it's harder for me to enjoy our exchanges (which I value so much), 'cause I don't feel we'll ever see eye to eye on certain things - and I love people SO much which are eye-to-eye with me... but I do realise you're writing because you care; it's always been my opinion that, in all relationships, when the talking stops, the caring ends. It's what I often remind my not-talking-so-much-husband of...

I was delighted to read that you liked our conversation - I imagine us sitting opposite each other and exchanging arguments in a MUCH speedier way... unfortunately you're in America and I'm in Germany (I am German, which you can see from the way I really don't get the hang of all these abbreviations used on these boards, so I never use them :-). But wouldn't it be fun/energising/exhilerating to have these written group-seesions person to person?!

I'm writing here because I could not find an equal board in the German net - and I bet there is demand for it over here, too! Languagewise it makes no difference for me: In my youth, I spent 2 years working in England and I studied English, too; it feels like my 2nd mother-tongue.

I LOVE the turd-saying. I am sorely tempted to argue that some kinds of turd are a very valuable thing for a lot of beetles, flies, garden soils etc --- but I won't ;-) I get your drift, but I'm going to try from a different angle:

Sometimes, the outcome of an affair is beneficial to some or all involved, it's like a cathargic effect: I, f.ex., would certainly never have given my now-husband a big chance, had he not, at the time, been such an antidote (and therefore, relief) to my lover.

Aside: My H + I met while I was still involved in the affair, but I told both men about the situation. Again: I just can't lie and I never did during this affair. I did not marry out of desperation, or because that had always been my dream - I had never wanted to get married for the sake of it, and I found in time that my H and I were suited to each other, could (and did) love each oher and had a real chance for a life together. The affair would "keep me" - but only as long as I played by his rules. I had only LOOKED for another man out of desperation - nd because the affair had said "You could go find yourself a steady partner, too. Then we'd both be partnered off and could carry on the affair forever..." Obviously said as a quip - but I decided that might well be a chance to pursue... Ah - the softbrains we become in an affair!!

OK: Beneficial effects. My affair has now obviously, found himself again, gotten clear with himself and started a brand new life, which I guess makes him happier than he has been before. Now: I doubt whether he + I could have achieved these changes without our affair. Maybe if we were stronger people, maybe if our characters had been better, maybe if we hadn't both been stuck in a rut at over 40... But all that being the case, it seems this was the only road open to us... (And I can already read what YOU will say to that.)

The only one I still think about regretfully is his former steady partner: Most likely, she never got to know anything about him and me, even when he ended his 7 years with her (and I certainly did see no reason to contact her when it was all over. She didn't need more pain.). I never knew her (although he told me a lot about her, even if I did not want to hear...), I don't know what she still expected from their relationship, and how much over/running it was for her. I know they were not living a close life. She is a psychotherapist; maybe that means she will get to grips with the separation better than others - but I know it means she will not suffer financially, which is a comforting thought to me. And she has 2 grown-up children she has a good relationship with, so she won't have been left completely alone.

But the outcome for my affair and for me has been good - so, were we just extremely fortunate??

Yes, I have trouble with the magnification of that 1 year in my life. I DO want to move, I know I NEED to move, but I have trouble with the fact that I seem to need the "absolute truth" about all this. I have my own views, yours, my affairs, my husbands, and quite a few others on the subject. But I still don't have the absolute truth (and it's that way with many more things in my life). And what's more: I know I'll never GET it. Maybe when we die, our eyes will be opened (I do hope for that, as horrifying as it may be), but until then, I've got to find a way of letting go of this desire, because pursuing it is senseless. See William Blake: Better murder an infant in its cradle than nurse an unacted desire.

""Sure there were golden moments but these were at a very high price:- lies, cheating & betrayals. Ignoring that price keeps the moments unsullied at the price of truth.""

I feel those moments and the price-tag on them are 2 different things. I can acknowledge their price (= acknowledge the truth), but they still stay golden. I never felt and will never feel that these moments were stolen (there was no one else who could have gotten/felt them), or of lesser worth because their price was so high. I don't know if I'd paid it, had I known the price beforehand - that's as much as I can concede here.

Re: Happiness + contentment: As we both aren't learnt philosophers, this is indeed unarguable here, agreed. I'm a glass-fully-empty-person, by the way (maybe I stole that from Woddy Allen, I don't remember:-).

""I have no doubt he was a stellar person, kind to children & animals, helped little old ladies...""

Oh, you DID make me laugh there (and I always enjoy that), but no, in fact, he wasn't very stellar (well - maybe on the mattress). He was kind + ferocious, a grand talker and a passionate devil, and, in essence, very much a 1 woman-man. Apart from the "tiny problem with lying etc." he was a haunted, driven, very self-critical, hugely perceptive/sensitive and more sentimental than romantic man right in the middle of a huge midlife-crisis.

Ah - I feel a little quote coming on (do you know/like Dame Edna? I'm a huge fan!):

A sentimentalist is simply one who desires to have the lxury of an emotion without paying for it.

Oscar Wilde

or:

Sentimentality is the alibi of the hard-hearted.

Arthur Schnitzler

or:

Sentimentality is the emotional promiscuity of those who have no sentiment.

Norman Mailer

He came over larger than life - and much smaller, too, just like I did, too. And he'd led a VERY interesting life (as I had, up to then) and we both were suckers for a good story well told.

""Meh, drama & excitement is easily achieved. Simply disrobing in a supermarket will guarantee all the drama & excitement you can stand.""

Another laugh. I should try the disrobing-in-a-public-place-technique - but I feel at my age the fine for insulting the eyes of the public would be higher than my excitement :-))

No, I think as an essentially private person (only self-trained to be very outgoing and gregarious in public)I unconciously sought my drama/exc. also in a very private place, i.e., an affair.

Selfless love vs. selfish love - you are right in your argument. But I only intended to state that love comes in so many shapes, never mind good or bad (intended or acted), that it can be healing. But, taken the complete quote by Elliott (I think in your former mail you split it up in 2 parts, and I thought it was 2 quotes) I see your meaning better: Of course we shoudn't ask of another person to fulfil a need only we ourselves can/should satisfy.

By the way: I don't mind my flawed character, because I fully well know, I will never be exemplary, in morals or other virtues; I'm not made that way. Yes, each one of us has to stand up to solitary self-reflection; no one else can tell us how good/bad we are. And, OK, let's leave Katherine & Spence out of the argument...

Art & Life (getting to the limits of my English: Had to look up emulate. Fine. Learning more English in th process): Don't you feel the world would be a much duller place if we all would be vice-less? Art depicts life's rich tapestry, right - but art never happens without reason. You appreciate art (well, some kinds of, varying on taste). Would you not feel deprived if some art was not coming to life because the reasons for it, often those "character-flaws" we frequently see in (over)sensitive artists, and which are the price for this their art, were non-existent?



Your argumentation would mean "ignoring that price keeps that art unsullied at the price of truth". So you would have to betray your argumentation to appreciate this art, wouldn't you? Wouldn't this be betraying etc. yourself?

Emulating or not is a different thread of argumentation. But if you follow your own argument, you'd have to disapprove of all "sullied art"... and this would mean judging art by it's origins --- but you stated "art is simply art" - so how do you harmonize this?

""Affairs are not about real life, the day to day mundane things like grocery shopping or whose turn it is to do the dishes, and seldom survive outside the rarified atmosphere of the fantasy bubble.""

Well, it's the eternal question of "What is real/reality?" I don't see how everyday-life is more real than affair-life. You're LIVING it (the affair), however the circumstances and whatever betrayals attached. And sometimes, day-to-day-life has a much more unreal quality to me... lots of times the "mundane things" don't survive either; lots of times the "real life" in a seemingly good marriage is kept up by the people involved living in fantasy bubbles. Healthy realtionships don't carry a guarantee of staying that way, either.

And, no, I feel affairs are NOT all about taking. I (as well as my affair) gave a lot: Of love, time, consideration - as well as pain and suffering. It felt like concentrated life, cut down to the essentials. I know I could never survive (heart & soul & brains intact) another of those. But it seems as though, healthy or not, it was what we both needed to find out we both needed something else.

And now: How vain it is to sit down to write when you have not stood up to live.

Henry David Thoreau

Mindful of this, I will now get going, late as it is... Wishing you a very good day (night over there?), Love,

M.







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