re: Urgent: Man needs help
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| Wed, 12-03-2003 - 8:43am |
Thak you -- it is not that I do not listen to your advice -- I cherish it! I am in tears now, because I cannot get OW back. After OW breaking it off 3 or 4 times and me breaking it off 2 or 3 times, she has made it clear it's over.
I've been calling all day to her pager, cell phone, and home, and she wont answer. I feel I can't live with myself because I could have been with her! But instead of staying with her each night (in an apt. I helped furnush, and stayed with the first night he got it) I chose to go home to wife most nights to keep from alienating her(wife).
So, logic wold dictate that I cared for my wife all along and should go back with her. But OW is gone, not an option, and I feel FORCED to go back with wife, even if that is really what I wanted to do -- does that make sense? The pain won't go away, I keep calling OW every hour, and that's pissig her off no doubt (she works as a medical professional). I just want a call from her for 5 minutes. Meantine, my wife is sick of hearing me talk about how sad I am.
It seems I don't have any choices left in life. I need help in getting through this. You say choose one or the other. Well, OW is done with it -- and I'm not even sure OW is best for me, but now thatshe;s not available I want her as much as ever (even though I agreed to break up twice with her!)
Edited 12/3/2003 8:49:19 AM ET by tonyshep

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You handled this whole thing like a chooch from day one...OW has reached the saturation point. Cut your losses and move on. I am sorry that you are in pain, maybe now you can work on yourself.
Jazzdiva
A bunch of men are sitting around on a porch, talking, when a tourist approaches to ask for directions. Soon he finds himself engaged in conversation with the men, but he starts to notice a dog, lying on the porch at one of the men's feet, whimpering. The tourist calls the dog over, pats him, and the dog seems happy until he goes back to the man's side and lies down again, at which point he immediately resumes whimpering. None of the men seem to notice, but it's really bothering the tourist. So he finally asks the man who seems to be the dog's owner, "Mister, what’s wrong with your dog?" All the men look at each other, puzzled, and the owner finally speaks. "Nothing's wrong with him." This puzzles the tourist even further. Can they not hear the dog whining? So he asks, "If nothing's wrong, why is he whimpering like that?" The owner seems to finally realize what the tourist is talking about. "Oh, he's just lying on an old rusty nail." Remembering that the dog had gotten up and chosen to go back over and lie in the same spot again, the tourist asked, "Why doesn't he lie somewhere else then?" After a long period of silence, one of the other men spoke up. "I guess it doesn't hurt bad enough yet."
Jazzdiva
I am really sorry that you are in so much pain. I think it is very good to have men on this board... it helps me tremendously, anyway. Please keep posting. I'm afraid that you may 'go away' if you start to feel some of the female resentment on the board. But, please don't run from that - consider the source and look at it as a window into your OW's heart.
I don't have a whole lot of different advice from what you've already heard. I have been in a very long term affair with a weak man that I love very much. He moved in with me once for about 8 months. He, too, was constantly over at his W's house (he still considered it his house). This is wrong behavior and I'll tell you why... When I separated from my now XH (my A had been going on for a year by that point), I was *very* careful to draw the boundaries with my soon-to-be XH, once he moved out. We have a child together so we needed to still have a relationship. But, I felt it was essential to immediately redefine that relationship and not give my STBX husband, my MM or my child any chance for mis-interpretation. I had a responsibility to everyone involved in my whole mess to not hurt them any more than could be helped. I felt obligated to correct my mistakes (affair, bad marriage) and felt that obligation with the individuals that I dragged into the mess. I think this is where soooooo many people screw up ending a relationship. And, it ruins people beyond belief to do this wavering back and forth in a very careless way, just because you are confused. My MM couldn't make up his mind when he tried to get out of his marriage. His constant contact with his wife made it absolutely impossible for us to have any kind of relationship. It also made it impossible for his W to let go and adjust. So, by doing what he did, he made his prophecy come true - that our relationship would end up like his 25 marriage and we'd end up fighting all the time too. So, he ran back home to W after 8 months. He never allowed himself to grow in one way or the other - either with me or back in his marriage by fixing those problems. According to him, he didn't go back because he missed his W. He went back because he was scared of not having any place to go if we didn't work out, his kids finding out that he was gone, and every other excuse he could think of. I could have lived with 'he missed his W and loves her'. That would have been a reason that was true to who he was. But, he didn't have any reason other than fear. I'll say it again...fear, the almighty motivator. Are you making your decisions out of fear? Are you not taking any action out of fear?
I am going to tell you one huge thing here...this comes from almost 5 years of affair experience... The single biggest most painful part of an A is the indecision. You never know where you stand with the A partner. I think the small percentage of affairs that grow into a real relationship are between two people who know what they want (without any doubt) and know how to move themselves in that direction. I was one of those people - unfortunately, my MM is not. Your indecision is what is causing the enormous turmoil - to you, your W, and your OW.
I'm not suprised that your OW is at the end of her rope. I am too and I have a very long rope. I don't believe anything my MM says anymore. I am even seeing my love for him fade, which I never thought could happen. When someone yanks your chain enough, eventually you just don't care anymore. I think it's a self-preservation tactic. My MM said, 'I love you' last night. I said, 'I don't think so...because someone who loves someone does not sit and watch that person in so much pain and not do anything about it - one way or the other'. He didn't agree...but, it doesn't matter what he thinks anymore. He is on the verge of blowing it too. He could have had a second chance in life to do what he wanted. I took that second chance by legally divorcing my H. He did not. And, to make matters worse - we are still involved. I also told him last night that I think I make his marriage 'just good enough' so that he can comfortably stay.
I know that my MM does not love his W. I know that he would rather have a different life. He just doesn't have the balls to do it. He lives his life in fear and that is so sad. I can't tell by your message as to whether or not you still love your W or don't know if you do. I knew that I didn't love my H anymore and that the A had caused to much damage to my marriage - my H didn't know about the A - but, it damaged it severely just the same. I knew that I could never rebuild my marriage to a satisfactory level. I left my marriage for my MM and myself. I don't regret divorcing even though I still don't have MM. It was the right thing for me to do. MM just gave me a concrete reason to go through with it.
I am finding out a few things about men: 1)they are way more fragile than women. They constantly doubt themselves and have no way to show their pain without feeling even worse in the process. 2)women don't realize that men need to constantly be reassured too. Women don't seem to know that their ragging (even when justified) breaks the spirit of a man and leaves him paralyzed. 3)men generally want to please a woman because it makes them feel better about themselves. 4)men have some 'provider' mentality going on that OW don't understand and it seems to keep men stuck in bad marriages. Women have the 'motherly' thing going on that keeps women in bad marriages. 5)over time, men are more scared then women to be totally alone. And, 6)men and women get involved in affairs for totally different reasons. Men and women look at love totally different - and, they also show love differently. Hence, all of the misinterpretations that lead to a woman's bitching and a man's withdrawal...vicious cycle of a bad marriage.
My advice to you is this... If you are unhappy in your marriage and know in your heart that you have no interest in fixing your marital problems, get out of that marriage. Don't factor in kids, money, history together. Just look at your W and ask yourself twenty-gazillion times if this is the love of your life. If it isn't and you consistly answer that question that way, you have no right to keep your W trapped in that kind of marriage (even if she's perfectly happy going on with the charade).
As for your OW...if you got your crap together and got out of your marriage for good in a very deliberate way and she still loves you, you probably have a very good chance with her. Right now, she wants nothing to do with you because you are the same person doing the same things to her. Who would want to talk to that? Been there, done that. Why would I pick up the phone, only to hear the same line of crud that I've heard before. Actions do speak louder than words. You just want to talk to her. She isn't responding to your talk anymore. If you want her, you're going to have to change your actions. If you got a place to live or moved in with her and kept it that way with distinct boundaries with W (no guilt visits, no guilt sex, no guilt presents...no indecision), you've got a chance. Problem is - you probably aren't willing to do that. My MM would make every excuse to be over at his house (mostly using the his kids as an excuse because I couldn't argue with that without looking like a bitch). Well, one day his kids were both gone and he was still over there...true colors shining through.
I will be very straight with you here. You have choices in your life. You are choosing to not exercise them. I am not telling you to dump your wife and run to OW. I am not telling you stay with your W and move on and forget OW. I am telling you to get off this fence that you've built underneath yourself. It is cruel to all three of you and no one deserves it. People will live and adjust with whatever another person decides in their life. They have no choice but to live with other's decisions. But, to not decide is the worst. I don't believe that all men want to be 'cakemen' (have their cake and eat it too). I think they just get comfortable having both sides. There is less fear involved with stringing out both relationships...you don't have to gamble. But, I don't think there is any personal integrety in playing it safe at other people's expense. I am losing respect for my MM. Yes, he's confused, scared, guilty...aren't we all? At some point in time, we owe it to our fellow men/women to step up to the plate and face what we fear the most, if what we are doing is hurting them. I don't think people have a right to knowingly cause another person pain and keep them in that pain just because it is the most comfortable thing to them.
This is all just my opinion (often presented as fact :)
I wish you luck. Please contemplate your situation. You are still on the fence even if you think you've lost OW for good. You are still on the fence *in your heart* and you will never find peace until you mentally get off that fence. Remember, no one loses anyone for good that is meant to be with them. Also, the difference between and strong person and a weak person is a decision. You have choices - to say your trapped is copping-out of your responsibilities in life...typical male :)
Bird
Also Tony has gotten feedback from NRE who is a male I believe and felt the same way most of the women did on the board.
Jazzdiva
Bird is right. Nothing at all has changed with your circumstances. Why should OW want to continue this way? I did this to my OW so many times. I became a crazy man when she would not see me. Finally, she often gave in out of exhasperation. She always asked me the same thing "Jon what has changed? Have you talked to your wife?" Nothing had ever changed. I was just desperate not to lose her. However, in her eyes, I did not make any changes so that I could be with her. Not only had nothing changed, I had not even talked to my W or even given her a hint of my being in love with someone else in 4 years. OW did a lot to be with me. In fact, she did everything we always talked about doing. She divorced her husband, she became financially stable on her own, etc. TONY, YOU HAVE GOT TO MAKE SOME CHANGES. It sounds to me like you have got to live in the marriage without the crutch of OW before you will become desperate enough to make a real change. These woman are right. The A's keep you in a bad marriage. They take the edge off. I did the same thing Tony. I made OW miserable. In fact, I watched the fire go right out of her eyes with my fence sitting. She became withdrawn and quiet. Do you want to do that to OW? If you love her, then don't do that to her. In the end, my OW tried to hold on and what did I do? After all of my begging and pleading, I went right back to W anyway. Put yourself in her shoes Tony. Just try. That was something that I never really did until the end. I was so ashamed of myself when I finally did.
Jon
And what CRAP about being forced to go back to the wife my XMM also told me that everytime I kicked him out. He had no choice to but to go back. Crap, Crap, Crap. I am going to therapy for the first time in my life and it makes you realize some things. I realize that it is not the other person my XMM it was ME that allowed this to happen. He was just doing what he was good at which was using people.
Right now you are not even thinking clearly and are self absorbed (not in an ok way). Being self absorbed is ok at times but you have to realize the problem lies within yourself. Good for you OW for leaving. Now your wife needs to leave.
I am here to support you don't get me wrong. I know this may seem mean but we all need reality checks every now and then in life. Again the problem is within you and you will never be able to have a good relationship till you get some help.
Help youself sommehow.
Cali~
Thank you, thank you, and thank you. It feels so good to finally hear a person realize what they have done to an A partner - even if it's not my MM. I didn't mean to make this a man/woman issue. We are all capable of fence-sitting. I have just observed that it has been more typical that a man fence-sits for all these 'fill in the blank' reasons.
Jon, I too have become quiet and withdrawn. That seems to be the last leg with women. I told my MM a couple of times that when I stop bitching, it is a bad sign. The quietness is usually apathy by that point. It happened in my marriage too. The quietness is also an acceptance that your dreams will not happen the way you wanted them to. Quiet and withdrawn are not good signs in women.
<< I became a crazy man when she would not see me. Finally, she often gave in out of exhasperation. She always asked me the same thing "Jon what has changed? Have you talked to your wife?" Nothing had ever changed. I was just desperate not to lose her. >>
I think you are right on, here... desperate not to lose what you had, even if it wasn't the optimal situation. Usually with fence-sitters, that desperation is with keeping both the spouse and A partner...duh, I guess that's the meaning of fence-sitter :) It wasn't that you wanted to change the situation by getting her back - you just didn't want to lose any ground that you already had. I think Tony just doesn't want to lose any ground either and his OW can see that, even if he can't.
I was thinking this morning after I initially replied to Tony - what drives people's decisions for major life decisions? What makes people stay in bad marriages? I thought it was fear. Then, I went one step further... I now think it's a primal search for safety. That's closely tied with the fear thing. We do things in life that make us feel safe. If we have a choice, we almost always take the safer route. We gravitate towards what we perceive as safe, even when it may not be in reality. The unknown is inherently not safe. I have been patting myself on the back all this time for having the courage to leave my bad marriage. I was the 'courageous one' in my mind for venturing out into the unknown. My MM was the weak one. Then, I thought this morning that maybe I wasn't any different then my MM. I think we are both the 'human ones'. What I was doing was the equivilent of a little kid taking their first steps across the floor to an awaiting parent five steps away to safely catch them when they collapse into the parent's arms...courageous? Probably not as courageous as I made myself feel. By a primal instinct, we always try to do the things that can insure our safety and preservation. It is a basic instinct to keep ourselves safe and pain free. My marital circumstances were not safe. They weren't physically abusive. But, my XH never represented a safe and secure situation for me. There are a lot of ugly details - but, suffice it to say, the marriage wasn't a stable environment. My MM seems to me like a strong, safe person... Little did I know, huh? Well, at the time I was making my exodus out of my marriage, I was subconsciously gravitating to a safer place - I was acting out of fear...not courage at all. My MM just represented a safer alternative to my marriage.
I think that Tony, my MM, and you find your Ws and marriage to be a safe place - or at least safer than a life of unknown out on your own. Since the marriages aren't the most fulfilling on their own, it is safe and nice to have the OW. Not the best situation, but content. In these three cases (I'll refrain from other generalizations), I think that if OW came with a crystal ball and warrenty of a safe life just with her, the OW would win. My MM is in his 'safe' situation by having both the W and me. If/when he loses me, his situation will no longer be 'safe' to him. Then, he will be forced to reevaluate the situation and make some changes; whether change by leaving bad marriage or change by confronting problems in marriage. I think that the desperation kicked in for both you and Tony because the environment changed and you tried desperately to get your old safe environment back. The only problem was that your old, safe environment was no longer your OW's safe environment. I have learned that the perception of safety is not one that is always functional. Human nature is always in need of a safe and secure and pleasureable environment - these are goals that we continuously strive to achieve since birth. In fact, it is a necessity for growth.
Jon, where are you now in your marriage? Have you fixed your marital problems and decided that your W is the one for you? Or, are you still searching for answers? Do you feel that you chose the safe route? (btw, I no longer link 'safe' with 'easy') It is healing to hear a fence-sitter finally put themselves in someone else's shoes. I don't think my MM wants to see my pain. He knows it's there. I know he knows it because last night before he was going to leave I was very quiet and withdrawn. He said meekly, "you're really sad, aren't you?" All I could do was nod yes. I no longer feel compelled to throw it in my MM's face by bitching at him. I could tell that he felt really bad by seeing my pain and knowing that he is causing it. I think fence-sitters know what they are doing. I'm just not sure that they really face the severity of what they do. I think if they did, they would have to face and feel what you did, Jon...being ashamed. If you bury your head in the sand, you don't have to feel that and you can still feel safe. I still feel some degree of safety in my A. I think that is another reason why it is hard to let go, even though my mind knows that it is time to let go. I also feel that by understanding both sides of our feelings, it keeps my anger level down by understanding that there are very human reasons why MM acted the way he did and it wasn't just because I wasn't good enough.
Just my thoughts
Bird
Not too harsh or out line AT ALL. The horse needs to drink the water all on his own no matter how many people lead him to it........
cl-nre
As for my marriage, I can't answer your questions Bird. I have been questioning my M for 9 years now. Will I ever feel content in it, just for the marriage? I just do not know. I do know that I feel that I am doing the right thing for the family as a unit and for my child. I can't explain it except to say that our daughter brought us together in a way that we have never been able to operate. As a family, we have fun together. My child is one of those happy children that makes everything more fun. It is just her nature. As a result, I believe that my W has mellowed. She sees me a good father and has more respect for me. My M bordered on abusive before. I took emotional and verbal beatings all of the time. I don't know what changed except the entrance of my daughter. Is this right or wrong? I do not know. Will this last? I do not know. I just know that I have to give it a chance or I will never feel good about my decisions. I used to feel so awful because I wished that my child was OW's. I wanted to experience that incredible love, chemistry and friendship with someone and have a child with them at the same time. Now, I am settling for mutual respect, co-parenting, love of parenting, love of my child. Somehow that will have to replace being "in love", chemistry, passion. I fear that I may find what others have warned. I may discover that is okay for now, but later when child is older? Yes, I believe that I have taken the safe route. Less people get hurt this way. Least of all, my child.
I also wanted to tell you that I believe that you are far more courageous than you think. Yes, you were removing yourself from an unsafe environment. However, that is what we all should be doing, Bird. We should love and respect ourselves enough to do that. I knew my M was not good. I knew that before I moved and took my current job. I was too chicken to address it and get out. Again, I chose the safe route. I chose to have a child instead. We thought it would help us. Did it? Yes. Help in the right way? That is questionable. You got out Bird. Yes, the unknown is inherently not safe. However, embracing the unknown to have a better life is extremely courageous. Had I gotten out of my M like I was considering before moving and taking another job, I would have been free to be with OW. I understand that you thought that your MM was safe. I know that my OW did also. She saw me as a safe haven for her. That is part of the devastation in all of this. I poured it on, too. I knew that OW thought of me as safe. I wanted to be her safety. I made it worse. I said everything to her that ever entered my mind, without being prepared to back any of it up. You have a lot of courage Bird. Yes, you do.
I wonder now how my OW must feel. It was so easy for me to throw all of the crap at her that I did at the end. I had a whole life and family to go back to. I could go home and crawl into bed with my little girl and read her a bedtime story. OW went home to an empty home alone. Where would I be right now if the tables had been turned? I would be a sniffling idiot. God, how I hope that I can help prevent others from doing this: getting into affairs. It is okay to fall in love with someone else while you are married. It happens. You just have to have the courage to finish all of your business alone and with dignity before you can be with that person. For those that do that, the payoff must be tremedous.
Jon
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