and he said......
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| Fri, 01-09-2004 - 10:34pm |
Well, today I saw MM, so we could "talk" as he requested. I was ready to tell him that it was over and that I needed to move on with my life no matter how much I loved him. I did not anticipate what was going to happen. When I told him, he said that is what I came to talk about - you and me. He proceeded to tell me that he fully understood why I felt the way that I do and realized that he has not been the best person in my life after what he did over the last 7 months. Now, that I expected. What I didn't expect was the actual tears that came as he was telling me how much he needed me in his life and that he is going to focus on him and I rather than him and W. It is really hard for me to stick to my guns when a man is crying let alone him. He is this huge (yes, I do mean body size) man's man, you know the type. I cried through it with him. At least my eyes were already puffy from the last few days of crying over this so I don't look any worse than I already did.
He told me that he knew that it hurt because the divorce was not happening right now and how much damage he did to me and my trust by ending the relationship when W was told she was pregnant. MM went on to say that in his time away from me, because of how he felt to be away from me for so long, he knows that I am the one he is in love with and wants to be with. He apologized for not making himself clear when we talked the other day and realized that he needed to let me know exactly how much he loves me. He explained to me that yes, he loves his wife but not the kind of love that it takes to make a marriage work. That he will always love her because she did have his son even when she didn't want children and that the only reason that he ended our relationship was because he felt obligated to do what he could to make the marriage work since there was a baby on the way. Quickly he followed up with the .... "but I now know that just because she got pregnant by accident that by accident the marriage will not work and even if it could I couldn't completely put forth my best effort because of the love I feel for you." He went on to tell me everything that he is going to do to regain my trust in hopes that I will allow our relationship to move forward. He also said that once he knows that he can get custody of his youngest son and that he won't lose everything he has worked for all these years then he would be mine for good. (I thought that before our break and he broke my heart).
He also did not even try to get me into bed, which is completely out of character for him. He just put his arms around me and held me with a few kisses here and there. I feel so good when I am in his arms - and safe. Stupid but I do. I guess four years of being held by those arms became a habit that I just don't want to give up even though it looks as though I might have to :( Last week when I saw him I wondered if what we had was gone, as I posted before, but today it was so damned powerful between us I almost felt guilty for even mentioning that I thought we should end the A.
Is it all a bunch of bull? Am I just being an overly emotional person that is acting like a twit? Can a MM after this long and a pregnancy, etc. really mean all of this? Is it that he is just willing to play the game as far as he has to in order to keep me around now that he has decided, again, that I am who he wants. I expected him to say some of these things to be able to keep his cake, so to speak but everything else - no way did I expect it.
I know that gurl and FREE feel that he is manipulating me and I would love to hear the two of your's interpretation of all of this along with the others here on this board because now I am really screwed up. I am trying to figure out if they are right :(
What a nightmare! Until this A, I always had a clear vision of where I was going in my life and now, everything seems so clouded.
Thanks in advance to everyone and their input and advice.
Confused

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be open to the possibility, but also keep your heart safe too!!
be careful and a little suspicious. MM needs to step up to the plate here for your wellbeing, peace of mind AND self-respect, girl!! and you should NOT sleep with him until he follows through on all those promises. seriously, let MM chase you and woo you AFTER he files for a separation and moves the heck out of the house!!
good luck,
gurl
Criminal Justice eh , well you will never be out of work that is for sure.
I think the school of hard knocks has developed a better character in you then you give yourself credit for there is more diamond in you then carbon, and there is nothing wrong with haveing a soft heart as long as you approch life with a level head.
I think that when two people that are friends enter into a sexual relationship the very nature of the relationship changes ,the motives change, for the man the female friend goes from being simply a dear friend to an object of sexual desire and satisfeying his sex drive becomes peramount and can completely take over in the A type situation were there is less time and oppartunity to have a complete relationship.
The reason I think it is so hard to see them comeing is because the friend changes on the inside and is motivated to be manipulative to meet his new goals.
I do not know his wife at all so let me ask a question you may find not so nice, what has MM contributate to her to make her the way she is, it could be she suspects him of A in the past or the one he had with you. He did marry her so there must have been or is something he liked\loved about her, the fact that there makeing babies together makes it clear there is more going on between them then he is letting on even if the baby was unexpected I would still conclude that they were trying to have one.
School will I think give you less time to fret over all this stuff.
I agree with Gurls post.
Got to et back to work now
FREE
In answer to your question about what he did to contribute.... When they first were together and in fact first married he said things were fine. Sexually they were intimate on a regular basis and they talked and enjoyed one another. THEN employment caused upheaval and they had to move from the city they lived in. That is when, he said, everything changed. The sex stopped, the talking stopped, the bitching and moaning all of the time started. She never wanted children and the fact that he had a low sperm count left them with a childless marriage of over 4 years before I stepped into the picture. They did adopt an older child but before the ink could dry on the adoption papers, I was already in the A with MM. She said that the adoption had better take care of his need for children (even witnessed this argument personally at a social gathering that all of us were at along with several others).
It was always known, by me, that they would have sex every few months and that this would keep her from suspecting anything since she only wanted sex every few months anyway. Well, it happened and she ended up pregnant. He had only been with her the one time in the previous 6 months. And before you ask, yes I do believe that to be true simply because of our time together - maybe I am wrong but I don't think so, not on this one. We knew that it would be a little while before he could divorce because of her and his fear of taking everything he ever worked for when all she has ever done is make payments on a vehicle with her income (a vehicle that she and she alone drives).
He insisted that her becoming pregnant was an accident but that since he always wanted children it obviously changed the scheme of our relationship. He now felt that he had to make all efforts possible to make the marriage work and that didn't include me. He told me that with me around, I made him weak and he knew that he would never put forth his best effort if he continued to be with me. At that time we had been together for 4 years. As I said in the other posts, we never really went with no contact and it was always an assurance of how much he loved me but we were not together for over 7 months. I was not pleasant during these emails and called him every name in the book for choosing her over me and how that made me feel. But, he always came back to how he felt about me even if I did piss him off and he would tell me off for whatever reason.
Why after this long would he want to come back - he could have just kept with the emails and phone calls and not had anything physical while I continued to tell him I loved him and we argued back and forth. Either way, the baby is here now, a few months old and WHAMMO - which is what brought me here. He loves her BUT he is in love with me, etc...... wanting to resume where we left off but can't leave the home where his children are "at this time".
The W is one of those that I have yet to find a coworker or person that I am social with that actually likes her or doesn't question why MM and her are together. She never smiles, never laughs, isn't social with any of his friends or coworkers, etc. She comes across as someone that is miserable and I would say that even if I didn't know her. In public, there is never any affection between the two. I have NEVER seen him kiss her, hold her had, or her do any of the above. I have never seen a gentle touch between them in all of these years - even attending the school programs together, going to the same funerals and the same weddings for the most part. Considering how handsy he was with me when we worked together long ago, in front of coworkers and with just the understanding of being "close friends" along with as much as possible affectionate - even taking chances of being caught by kissing me in the office, etc., I would think I would see something if they really were a "couple" on any level. They appear to just be two people in the same place. Maybe it is just me.
So there is the low down of the W and MM. I could write a book but I think this gives a good rounded picture of what has happened.
Anyway, I did send him an email asking him specifics of where it is we are going and when that is going to be, letting him know that I wasn't going to be the OW forever and that choices needed to be made by him. I also told him that if his priority is still his marriage then he needs to let me go because there is no place in his life for me and I really don't want to keep crying myself to bed at night when there are three other men that I have rejected in the last couple of months because of him. Obviously there is a lot more emotion in it than that and maybe that isn't enough but right now that is the only confrontation that I have that I am hoping that I am ready for the answers he gives me. Afterall, he admitted to still loving his wife so why wouldn't he be honest with me about all of that considering I have never caught him in a lie that he has told me in all these years.
Sorry it is so long but.... I don't know of a way to make it much shorter and not give an accurate picture for the question you asked. I am going to try to just let it go - maybe if I don't recipricate he will just go.
Thanks again gurl and FREE, I will do as you advised and just watch while keeping my heart in tact (not that it is in tact now but maybe I can save some dignity somewhere). Amazing how "typical" is all is when it feels so individual to those that are in it. I never thought of myself as a statistic but I guess I am.
Confused
With out sounding like I am trying buttering you up I have to say that you are an impressive woman.
I think that you have made the right decision in the e-mail you have sent to MM, I hope that you have the determination to see it throw, It is in my opinion something you need to do for you and your kids long term happyness, It's time for all are nothing no more crumbs.
So these other three guys were they cute, anything worthwhile to offer????????
I wonder why the move had the affect that it did on his wife seems there could be more to it then meets the eye, did he ever tell you?
Are you all set for school?
Free
I hope I can pull through with what I put in the email as well. I never thought it would come to this as it was just "known" that we would be together. I am anticipating the "I don't know when it will happen but be patient, we will be together because you are the woman I am in love with" along with the excuses about not leaving for the kids, etc. I can kind of understand not leaving for the baby since it was by pure accident and he didn't think he was going to have children of his own. We had talked about having children once the D was final and what needed to happen medically, but..... I guess I won't ever have more kids - that is one desire in my life that I will have to forget about.
As for the three men - one is a coworker, another works for the city and the third works with a sister company of the one that he works for. They all know one another and it makes it very difficult for me to see myself dating any of them. They all are good men, all D'ed and all have children of their own. My heart just isn't in it. In fact, last week I received a letter from a different man that has loved me since we were teens and I showed it to MM and told him - wake up and smell the coffee. This is a man that I never even had a relationship with other than a close friendship. MM just doesn't get it or doesn't want to get it. I think that he feel perfectly content and confident in knowing that he has my heart and if I were going to cheat, I would have done it by now. How ironic isn't it - I am as faithful as one can be to a MM having an affair with me.
I am definitely ready for the next term of school to start. After not being in school for many years, I find it kind of exciting and it stimulates my brain unlike anything else can. I have always been one of those "need to know" type people when it comes to different things so crime investigation and counseling are right up my alley. Who knows which field I will end up in when I actually go to work in the field but at least I will be qualified for any position except that of a lawyer or police officer.
You asked why the move had such an affect on the W and if he ever told me why or what really happened. Yes, he has - there is a lot to it but really it just boils down to her throwing a temper tantrum because she didn't get her way. He is the one that makes most of the money and she is far from self-supportive, never has been therefor I think that she really didn't have much to say when the promotion came up and he had a choice to take it or lose his current position because it was being phased out. Oddly enough, she is still around her family, even with the move, and he isn't around his family what so ever. She is a very catty, selfish and self absorbed woman that thinks it should be her way or no way (I have seen this personally). She manipulates every aspect of their M and now with the baby it is even worse from what he has told me. I knew it would be since she never wanted children but hey, what do I know right?
Just one instance for you to get a feel for her. Before the A ever started, he would bring his checkbook to me because she would tell him that she wrote a check for a specific amount and low and behold, he would either bounce a check or his account wouldn't balance and that is when he would find out that the check she wrote was for, a lot of times, a hell of a lot more than what she said. I would listen to him talk about it along with every other time that I listened to him about the problems in his M and I would help him balance his checkbook and a shoulder for him to come to when he needed one - you know, the friend you trust with everything. His W is a person that I would have kicked to the curb a long time ago had it been a male in a relationship with me. Not my problem I guess, at least not directly.
That should give you more of an idea about this W. I almost wish that I could sit here and say that I only feel this way about her because of things he says - I could then sit on the fence and rationalize it all to being lies to get me into bed. I just have seen too much of it myself and know that he can't be happy - no one would be.
Thanks again, FREE. I appreciate the time that you are taking to walk me through this.
Confused
It seems to me like a lot of us that were/are involved with A you have a habit of under estamating yourself sugesting a low sense of selfesteem , something to work on.
If you want a future to be proud of you have to do what is going to be good for you first, I say good for you not what feels good, thus stick to your guns you are worth it.
Your ownly 32 years old there is time for more kids, have you written back to the fourth man to see if at the least you could have a friendship with him is he single or married, you would not be cheating that is just a little rediculous.
MM seems just a little to cocky about his hold over you for my taste seeing someone else would shake him up, he may back off or advance at least in words, of course the question would remain would he really follow through, most likely he would move to tighten his grip on you.
Here is an interesting question for you , is MM sure the child is his, take a low sperm count add sex once in three months that could add up to a child but seems unlikely ,plus the spending $$ could she be haveing an affair herself and had to leave her AP when forced to move?
I think school will be good for you , give you other things to concentrate on and less time to worry about MM.
Here is a web address that sweet69 posted with A stats , an eye opener
Facts on Affairs:::: http://www.wordscapes.net/affairs-facts.htm
Glad to help in any way I can
FREE
I find it ironic that a low self esteem is a common trait among those in A. I didn't have a low self esteem until the day I found out W was pregnant and our A was ending. That made me and still does make me question everything I ever thought about with regard to who I am, where I am going and why I am doing the things I do.
With regard to the fourth man - we are good friends, have been for years. He is just not someone that I am attracted to in a romantic way even though he has expressed his feelings for me repeatedly over the years, 17 years +, ever since I was a teen (and I am now 34).
MM IS cocky about his hold on me. I have been tempted to go out with his coworker a couple of times just because of that fact - counting on the kiss and tell aspect of men and their egos. Knowing that is wrong, I just can't use the SM in that way.
As for the baby and it being MM's. I posed this question to him and boy oh boy did I about get my head torn off. I thought the chances of her getting pregnant out of the blue like that was extremely odd (he agrees and told me that he wished it had not happened). He INSISTS that she would never cheat on him no matter how bad their relationship is. YEAH RIGHT! So, with that said and unless I am completely off the mark and he has been able to lie about everything in their relationship for going on 7 years now, I do think the chances of her having an A and the baby being another man's are minimal considering how long they have been married. I think that even if the baby wasn't his he would simply ignore that fact because he wants his own children just that badly.
You questioned if she was possibly in an EMA at the time they moved - from what MM has told me, their relationship was fine until the point of moving. There was about a month's time span in between him finding out about needing to relocate and actually doing it so if she was in an A, he definitely doesn't think so and believes that the move was the catalyst to the change in their marriage. And, the money issue seems to be all about her. Whenever she does this it is for frivilous "things" that she wants and knows that they can't afford.
Also, thank you for the website with the stats. It really is quite depressing in its numbers :( but what would one really expect, right?
The last term of school really helped me get through things a lot easier so yes, this term will help me to gain focus somewhere other than MM. Thank goodness. With this new twist in things, I need to have some distraction and time to really evaluate what I need in life now.
Thanks again, FREE - you always make me think!
Confused
I had to laugh when you related his response about his wife cheating.
The old male EGO she would never cheat on me ,who does he think that most men are screwing the dog.
I am not surprised that he got upset about the idea of the baby not being his, the old EGO couldn't live with that idea, how dare my wife be like me.
As to my comment about self esteem I made because you keep putting yourself down, your ownly real mistake was to get emotionaly involved with an EGO on legs.
But it is true if you read a lot of posts that many women get sucked into A because of how they feel about themselfs and there body image , you on the other hand have 5 men that want you and I expect there are more that have not spoken up.
You are a decent soul not to use the S/G in that way, another fine charactaristic.
MM EGO could have blinded him to his own wifes activities,if she was involved with some one or not I still think there had to be more behind her attitude change toward her husband and the world in general, the money spending strikes me as a way of punishing MM for something, perhaps she has reason to believe he was up to no good before you ever met him, he has handled you like a pro and that suggests experience.
Please forgive me if I do not take MM word for to much after all he is lieing and sneaking around to see you and you know what they say practice makes perfect.
Yep the stats are pretty bad about EMAs, did it say there that about 20 percent of males that are involved in EMAs are repeat offenders.
Has he responed to the E-mail you sent laying down the law, does he feel that he even has to???
School will be good for you, are the other students in your age group, any prospects there??
Sorry kid but 34 is still you from point of view.
Have a good nights sleep.
FREE
I had to laugh at him when he told me there was no way in hell she would ever cheat on him. He didn't take very kindly to my reaction when I followed up and said - "you know, what is good for the goose is probably even better for the gander". That was, I think, the only time that he has ever been mad at me about something I said about the W and in general. He was red in the face and even asked me if I would cheat on him - all I said is how can I cheat on you when we aren't in a committed relationship, that territory comes with your wife - not me. The comments didn't sit well but I think he knew I wouldn't and didn't worry about anything but me running my mouth - how dare I, HA! Kind of like the kid who teases their sibling and that is ok but they will be damned if anyone else will do the same. Oh well. You may be right that the financial may be a way of punishing him for something. I just don't give her that much credit - she is just a *itch in my eyes.
As it goes with the other men - yes, I have opportunity BUT they aren't who or what I want. I really wish that I could see them differently and maybe in time I will be able to. Just right now I am too wrapped up in MM as stupid as that is.
He did not answer my email. He did, however, send me an email telling me that he couldn't see me today because he had too much going on at work and personal stuff. I thought it was kind of interesting since I had not planned on seeing him today - no remarks about my email, nothing. He ignored it. I did email him back and said that it was too bad he was having a bad day and that I hoped the personal had nothing to do with me (hoping to spur a response of some sort). Instead, I got the run down about work and FINANCIAL PROBLEMS which he didn't specify. It was just a quick note that he ended by saying that he was really glad I was giving him the chance to rebuild my trust in him. ?????? Maybe he was distracted - I will give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he does with it tomorrow. I know that he will not be in the office Thursday and he will be in meetings all day on Friday so tomorrow will be the tell all if he is going to ignore it all together or not.
I fully understand what you are saying about trusting in what he says - the only problem is that I have never caught him in a lie. BUT with the chain of events that took place between us, even though he was upfront, it was enough to shatter my trust in him without having to catch him in a lie if you know what I mean.
All of my classes this term are virtual ones so I won't actually be in a classroom. I will be communicating with all of the other students through the wonderful world of the web so who knows, there may be some new prospects. I at least know up front that their interests have to be at least similar.
I hope you had a great day. As usual I look forward to your response. I am curious about your take on his email to me.
Confused
I am beginning to understand why you put the word confused in your screen name,
The e-mail thing is very interesting, there seem to be three posablities:
MM is 1) Totaly NUTS
OR
2) In total DENIAL of the fact that you are not letting him call all the shots.
OR
3) Is convinced he is in total control of you and believes he can manipulate you at will.
I think it has more to do with the last item but may incorparate elements from the first two as well, the fact that he has failed to respond to the e-mail you sent would cause me serious concern if I was in your shoes, it says a lot about were his head is at, is this man passive aggressive, by not answering he is telling you were you are in his pecking order.
His looseing his temper and getting red in the face because you spoke up and voiced a idea he does not want to here should be a red flag for you, pushed harder could he get violent, at the very least he was makeing it clear that you have your place and it is not in his family (unless you consoling him).
I know that I am comeing across very critical of MM , but the more you tell me about him the more obvious it gets that this man has some very serious character flaws, I would like to say more on this subject but think dropping it would be a better idea.
I work in the information technology sector and deal with a lot of powerfull men in large world famous companys, MM shares a lot of there characteristics,egocentric being the most common, followed by the delusion that they are untouchable( and these guys never seem to leave empty handed even when they screw up).
Now back to the wife, my question marks were she is concerned have not been removed, she sounds like a bitter hurt angery woman, the question WHY, I have a hard time believing that this is the result of a move, there is more then you are being told, you may not have caught him in any lies but I think she has, she lives with him 24/7 you do not you only see him under controled conditions , accept the one time that you hit a raw nerve and he want red in the face , that may have been the one time you caught a glimpse of the true MM the man that she lives with.
I know the above statment will not be popular with you and it feels better to think she is a B***ch ,but one thing I know is that when people have a radical personality change there is a serious reason behinded it,DRUGS , ABUSE , AFFAIRS ETC.. something caused it.
I know a woman that was in the same situation as yourself and when she was in it she could not be interested in any other men but shortly afer exiting the A low and behold there were all sorts of S/Gs that were interested in her and it did not take very long for her to find one she liked a lot and from what I here from time to time things are looking good for them, SO THERE IS HOPE.
You may want to meet some of your fellow students for java and conversation you never know.
I have been young and now I am old ,I have made a good life out of being able to read people and predict there responses in advance in business situations,if I was doing business with MM I would hold onto my purse.
Now if your still up GO TO BED
FREE
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