and he said......

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-06-2004
and he said......
51
Fri, 01-09-2004 - 10:34pm
Hello all.

Well, today I saw MM, so we could "talk" as he requested. I was ready to tell him that it was over and that I needed to move on with my life no matter how much I loved him. I did not anticipate what was going to happen. When I told him, he said that is what I came to talk about - you and me. He proceeded to tell me that he fully understood why I felt the way that I do and realized that he has not been the best person in my life after what he did over the last 7 months. Now, that I expected. What I didn't expect was the actual tears that came as he was telling me how much he needed me in his life and that he is going to focus on him and I rather than him and W. It is really hard for me to stick to my guns when a man is crying let alone him. He is this huge (yes, I do mean body size) man's man, you know the type. I cried through it with him. At least my eyes were already puffy from the last few days of crying over this so I don't look any worse than I already did.

He told me that he knew that it hurt because the divorce was not happening right now and how much damage he did to me and my trust by ending the relationship when W was told she was pregnant. MM went on to say that in his time away from me, because of how he felt to be away from me for so long, he knows that I am the one he is in love with and wants to be with. He apologized for not making himself clear when we talked the other day and realized that he needed to let me know exactly how much he loves me. He explained to me that yes, he loves his wife but not the kind of love that it takes to make a marriage work. That he will always love her because she did have his son even when she didn't want children and that the only reason that he ended our relationship was because he felt obligated to do what he could to make the marriage work since there was a baby on the way. Quickly he followed up with the .... "but I now know that just because she got pregnant by accident that by accident the marriage will not work and even if it could I couldn't completely put forth my best effort because of the love I feel for you." He went on to tell me everything that he is going to do to regain my trust in hopes that I will allow our relationship to move forward. He also said that once he knows that he can get custody of his youngest son and that he won't lose everything he has worked for all these years then he would be mine for good. (I thought that before our break and he broke my heart).

He also did not even try to get me into bed, which is completely out of character for him. He just put his arms around me and held me with a few kisses here and there. I feel so good when I am in his arms - and safe. Stupid but I do. I guess four years of being held by those arms became a habit that I just don't want to give up even though it looks as though I might have to :( Last week when I saw him I wondered if what we had was gone, as I posted before, but today it was so damned powerful between us I almost felt guilty for even mentioning that I thought we should end the A.

Is it all a bunch of bull? Am I just being an overly emotional person that is acting like a twit? Can a MM after this long and a pregnancy, etc. really mean all of this? Is it that he is just willing to play the game as far as he has to in order to keep me around now that he has decided, again, that I am who he wants. I expected him to say some of these things to be able to keep his cake, so to speak but everything else - no way did I expect it.

I know that gurl and FREE feel that he is manipulating me and I would love to hear the two of your's interpretation of all of this along with the others here on this board because now I am really screwed up. I am trying to figure out if they are right :(

What a nightmare! Until this A, I always had a clear vision of where I was going in my life and now, everything seems so clouded.

Thanks in advance to everyone and their input and advice.

Confused

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-06-2004
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 12:07am
Good Evening FREE,

You are right - I am exhausted but I don't think it is from posting here. I think it has more to do with the fact that I am fighting with myself and second guessing everything I do, say and think. At least when I am posting I am letting some of that out in a constructive manner which allows for me to understand how others think or what things appear to be, etc. I am going to try to recoup and sleep some this weekend if I get the chance.

No, I didn't hear from MM today - remember, he was out of the office today. I don't even know that I will hear from him tomorrow as he has meetings which I do not know what times they are. If I don't, I know it will be after the weekend and the longer it goes the more hurt and angry I get.

In your post you said:

>>>doing what it takes to keep the good thing he has (YOU)<<<

I only took this one line out because somehow it made me smile. I wasn't sure this whole time if you thought I was a bad thing or a good thing for him. Granted what he is doing to keep me in his life isn't positive but..... I think it is just a sense of validation on some level. I also know that you didn't say that he thought of me as a sex toy or that he is the devil. I have understood what you have said to me and I believe in the context that you intended I think.

LOL @ nothing under the rock - that is kind of what I was aiming for - nothing. Just existence for a little while until I get bored anyway :o)

Have a great day!



Confused

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-28-2003
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 8:49am
HI Confused

Good morning to you.

There is no question you are good thing in MM life(the fact that at least 5 diferent men want you says that you have a lot to offer), the ownly real question that concerns me is he a good thing in your life, is letting this R continue as an affair a good thing for you.

The answer I have to the question is of caurse no, you desire I think to be married and have another child, haveing your time wasted by MM is not good for you, IMO if the answers to your e-mail do not include a hard and fast timetable leading to this then you should bailout and save yourself, regardless of his feelings/words or yours.

It is about ACTIONS.

A word on true love (not defined by me): real love is self scraficeing it puts what is best for the loved person before what is best for self and acts accordingly , love is not selfish or self serving.

By this definition does MM really love you more or less then himself?

Sorry to put more stress on you but I think to get real piece of mind you need to arrive at a decision one why or another soon, the clock is ticking and can never be reset.

Take care of yourself and those kids of yours.

FREE



iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2003
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 9:35am

I feel so dirty. I've been reading all these posts for days and I feel like some sort of voyeur.


At any rate, I wanted to plant a few seeds, queen.


I don't think you're being manipulated, and I don't think your MM is dishonest with you about his feelings. I think he's very torn and afraid of losing you. I sense a lot of emotional investment here; I think it was very, very big and good of him to focus on his wife during the pregnancy, despite how hard it was on you. She and the child needed him *badly* during this time, and he was there for them. Now the pregnancy is history...

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 9:54am
Free, I didn't mean to 'accuse' you of anything or put you in a position to defend what you said. We all have a right to our opinions. I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but I also don't think it's constructive (or fair) to assume the worst in people. I also truly believe that *most* men are not manipulative, dishonest, selfish creatures that only think about themselves. It is so much more complicated than that.

"...but as a man involved in an Affair, and being typical about it doing what it takes to keep the good thing he has (YOU) and that does normaly include lieing and manipulation to some degree."

That is true. But, let us remember that it's true on both ends of an affair. The OW is lying, and/or participating in a dishonest relationship, every time she is with a MM. Does that make the OW bad, or uncaring? Does that mean she doesn't care about the MM? Not at all.

We are all selfish, to some degree. We all want what makes us happy, and we all want to be with someone who we love and who makes us feel good. It's called human nature, and it often goes directly against societal 'rules' such as those that exist for marriage and affairs. Most of us here are so torn up because of the conflict - and that very often includes the MM/OM's, not just the OW's.

Doesn't mean your statistics aren't correct (they probably are). I know you like to quote these statistics. However, statistics are only numbers... (I have a degree in this area, so I deal with interpreting them all the time). It's a great idea to be aware of them, and know what they represent in general, but they need to be interpreted in the context of one's own life or particular situation. In the same manner, you can't take a statistic derived from a health care related clinical trial and apply it to every situation. You have to assess all the particulars, or else you'll be in real trouble.

"The men tell the women what they need to here to be happy the women want to believe it and repeat it on the posts for that reason.The funny thing is that husbands do the same thing all the time so it seems to be a natural male response to emotional preasure from the women in there lifes, the long and the short of it is that it maintanes the status que."

This is a generalization. It applies to some cases, not all. It doesn't apply at all to my case (successful long-term A), for example. I think that Confused knows she is in a situation which is not constructive for her, but I also firmly believe that a lot of her stress comes from trying to figure out if she's been duped. I don't think it's useful to assume that all situations are like the above, especially for someone who is going through the ... well... Confusion, that Confused is going through right now.

Just my honest opinion -- we're all entitled to our own. Hearing those of others is always useful to learn how to put things in perspective. Thanks,

Kari









iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2003
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 9:57am
Great post (again), NG.

Confused - she knows what she's talking about. Take what she's said to heart. This is where you will find your peace.

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-27-2003
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 10:21am
free

I agree with what wwwmommy is saying here -- I think you do tend to assume the worst in men!! But please don't take that as an insult. I do like your posts here; they definitely make one think, which is good, as I would rather see a post of your sort than a simple pat on the back or an "It's ok."

wwmommy -- great to see you back.

Charlotte




Edited 1/16/2004 10:21:55 AM ET by charlotte1203

 

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-28-2003
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 2:47pm
HI To all the posters

This is more how I like it a nice 4-5 way discussion, I welcome input from all and in fact like people to challange my views.

The long and the short of all that I have beeen trying to say to Confused is thet her presant situation is not likely to meet her stated desire to be married and have more children , she is now 34 years old and does not have unlimited time to accomplish these goals, If MM is planing to come through for her then he needs to make it clear she sent him an e-mail requireing him to answer some questions , he got the e-mail but has yet to respond several days have now past.

I stick to my view that Many but not all men once they get into an EMA tend to string the women involved along and can be ruthless (I mean in working on her emotions) in doing this if the women expresses the desire to end the EMA , there are many posts at this site that make it very clear this happens often, I am not down on men as a whole just this subgroup.

Someone said that EMAs are selfish by nature - I have to agree A are always about "ME" and how I respond to what "I" see as my needs and intitalments.


The stats are just that numbers that state general facts in a unbiased way, I believe that decisions should be based on as much non emotional information as possable, this Idea that is so popular that we should just follow are heart IMO is just pain wrong and very often leads to nothing but heartache for everyone involved, a level head will do more for your long term happyness then a excited heart will.

I know that there are people that do well in EMA Gurl sweet69 lib mommy have made it work, but one thing I have noticed about you all is that you tend to bring maturity and, emtional selfcontrol (a level head) to the R and can keep things balanced and in prospective.

It has been my observation that most of the women that post at this and other sites almost seem to return to a second teenage stage in there minds and end up out of control and not equal partners in the EMA. I work with a lot of men and have to deal with them at all ages and postions of power one thing most have in common it they do not respect weekness and will take advantage of it were possable and that is what I see happening to this type of women.

I am Sorry but I cannot remember everything everybody posted to me but hope we can continue to have an open honest friendly discusion along these lines with out any hostiliy.

Please forgive the typos

FREE

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-06-2004
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 4:55pm
Hello everyone,

First off, I would like to thank everyone that has taken the time to offer their advice and opinions. I am just going to respond to everyone in this post to make it easier for everyone to read.

Free,

As usual, thanks for your input. I do want to clarify though that I did not want to get married or have any more children until it became something that him and I were discussing and decided that we both wanted in our lives once we were together. That, obviously is now gone and hurts immensely. But, it is what it is - what our dreams for our future were.

He did not answer the email which I really did not expect but I did end up telling him off in a not so nice manner so unless he steps up to the plate, for all intensive purposes it is over, I think. I am just way too hurt by it all and I guess I am not a big enough OW to just accept what is since that was not what he had promised me for so long like some of the OW on this board.

I agree with your definition of what love is and no he does not add up to what it is. I want to believe that I do because I gave of myself unconditionally like he begged me to do for so long when this first started. Our friendship meant the world to me but when the A started even though it felt like a natural transition, I wasn't ready to invest myself into a R - he begged and pleaded for me to just trust in him and let things go where they were going to go. Well, I did all of those things and more and this is what I got for it.

I always do take care of me and my kids - it was just nice to have someone that my sons, especially the one with mental illness and disabilities, could confide in and felt close to. I can't give him those things outside of the realm of being mom and he found that in MM much like their adopted son did except that, well, should have never even been discussed between us I guess. My childrens' father hasn't been around them in almost a decade and I was just comforted by the fact that he found that role model for himself.

In your last post you said "It has been my observation that most of the women that post at this and other sites almost seem to return to a second teenage stage in there minds and end up out of control and not equal partners in the EMA."

Just for the record I never returned to a second teenage stage and my being out of control now has everything to do with him, at least, playing the part of this R to being at the same level if not a higher one and then the slam to the ground and all that went with that and then coming back and continuing to say the same things. If I seem immature about all of this, I truly do apologize for that as I never thought that was how it appeared. I realize I was stupid for having ever believed in his promises, now - then I thought they were genuine and our future was together not an A on the side.

naughtygirl23:

I appreciate what you are saying to me in your post. I do want you to understand though that when we became involved the marriage, from what he said and what I knew from being best friends with him for over two years before any of this started, for all intensive purposes was over except for raising their adopted son and we knew at what point in his life it would be appropriate for him to D. The plans for leaving the W changed when and because she got pregnant. Not because I am trying to pull him away from his family or dishonor the traditional family values. Him and I had already planned on having children, etc., the family was supposed to be with me. No, it didn't happen that way and I could very well have been duped into believing a lot of lies throughout the years but it was my future that got taken away from me because of this chain of events. As far as I know, maybe he is as hurt by it all as he says he is and wishes things had not happened this way OR he feels he has lost nothing because whatever future he may have had with me was only a fantasy. If I had really wanted to, I had the opportunity time and time again to tell her about the A and I didn't - still haven't and don't plan on it because I won't be the one that tears apart a M or family. BUT on the other hand I also do not believe in staying M because of the kids when a person is miserable (maybe that is a lie too). It doesn't do the children any good or the parent. Honest, I am not a bad person here - I never intended on having the A to begin with.

You also said that I could not be the recipient of all of his energies - no I agree I can't but for many years now I have been the one that has listened to him, been there for him and loved him - not her and I never believed in any more than what he promised to me. I feel I deserve a little more respect than just accepting crumbs from him after not only the time, the promises, etc.

wwwmommydotcom

I know that your response was between you and FREE on difference of opinions but I did just want to thank you for responding. Everything that both you and FREE have said to me makes all the sense in the world - now I just have to figure out which side of that pendulum this R fits. After 4+ years of a solid relationship and of course the last, close to 8 months now of the challenges of not being together and him returning... I would hope that there is some genuine feelings for me from him.

Charlotte

Yes you are right, FREE does always post in a way that promotes a person thinking about things - negative or positive, that is what it is all about.


Thanks again all, as usual I can walk away with things to reflect on and think about as I attempt to put this puzzle together that I once called my life.

Confused

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-14-2003
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 7:19pm

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-28-2003
Fri, 01-16-2004 - 7:38pm
Hi Confused

Forgive me it seems I got confused about the M and kids thing, but was at least partly right.

Please understand that the comments made to mommy and others were general statements not intended to reflect on you in any way, the teen age thing would not be something I would have applied to you in at all, If anything I would have put you in the class of mommy gurl liberal and sweet69, people that I have get respect for.

Confused If I did not think highly of you I would not have spent the time are energy corresponding with you I am pretty picky about the people I invest in.

At no time did you appear immature in my eyes just the opposite in fact.

Over all I think that I see you in a better light then you see yourself ,I see many worth while things in you, If you were a company I would invest money(and trust me I am CHEAP so if I invest it means something).

If you lived down the street I would be pleased to call you a friend.

You were not stupid you were hopeful and trusting, let me tell you I tend to think in the beginning MM may have been honest with you about what he wanted but was not honest with himself or you about were his M really was at in the privacy of there home haveing more better moments then he could admit, In my view he did not really cross the line tell he decided to get you back with out regard for your future.

I understand how badly you are hurting and there is nothing I can do about it accept type words on this screen that offer little comfort if any at all.

I would not surprise me to here that MM has come crawling back in a few days, but I have to admit I hope he does not unless he has a D decree in his hand, If you were my daughter they never would find his body(I AM KIDDING).

Confused you have it with in you to have a long happy life, that is something I believe, you are a first class LADY don't settle for a second best life.

Get some rest.

FREE