leopards changing their spots
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leopards changing their spots
| Tue, 03-30-2004 - 11:45pm |
As I'm getting things together this week to leave, the W is going all out in her last ditch effort. I feel really bad for her. She swears she didn't understand the scope of things and is willing to do pretty much anything.
At this point, I will still move out in order to clear my head. The 55 post thread the last two days has certainly proven to me that is a good idea, and the OW's behavior has further cemented my decision.
So here's my question... has anyone ever seen a relationship change, really change? Does anyone know of people who separated, one person got some counseling or whatever, and they got back together with very good results on a continuous basis?
I just don't think it happens at this point. I haven't seen it happen, but who knows... just curious if anyone has seen a leopard change their spots.
rain

As for whether a leopard can change its spots, well that is quite a question isn't it? That is something that I am also struggling with. So is my MM for that matter. We are both trying to work on our marriages and give our spouses a chance. I HOPE DH can change, but I'm afraid to get my hopes up too much. We went through some rough times a few years back. He saw I was upset and promised to change. He actually did change for a bit. But then things went back to the way they were before. I think that true change is very, very hard to accomplish. In the case of my DH it means altering not only his thinking, but some of his core behaviours. Quite frankly, I don't think he can do it. I know this is awfully pessimistic of me. But as I said, I just don't want to get my hopes up. MM's story with his W is exactly the same - brief changes and then lapsing back into old ways. They are in counseling now - so maybe that will help.
In the meantime, I'm trying to see if there is anything I can do to a) cope with some of the things that bother me (so DH doesn't have to change those things) and b) help DH to change the things that I absolutely can't cope with. I'm also trying to see what I can change about myself to improve things. It is definitely a struggle. I must say that in a way I envy you being able to move out and go on your own. I wonder if it will come to that for me some time soon.
At any rate, I wish you luck with everything. I think you are on the right path. And I'm curious also to see what others have to say about the ability of people to effect lasting change in themselves.
Hang in there!
GB2
Once my H realized that me leaving was for real...he's been an absolute wonder. I mean really just downright great, what I've been waiting for forever. And I'm willing to try with him to really give the effort...
BUT (you knew it was coming didn't you!!) We have an understanding. Our relationship had absolutely no communication. I'm just as much at fault for that as he is. Our relationship has been long and complicated from the very beginning, and right now is the first time in forever that I've felt content with him. (Sad it took this, I know.)
I really was inspired my Omaha. He said before about his M that he tried. He gave it everything he had, and it still didn't work. At least now he knows there is nothing more he can do.
First you have to determine whether you are willing to try. Not only does she have to do the work, but you will have to do work too. You are going to have to begin to trust her with YOU again. That's very hard, and something that is starting to begin with me and H. Then you have to determine whether you love her or not. Trying will show you. I don't mean just care about, I mean LOVE, like you love OW. Well not exactly, but you know what I mean, in love. Make sure you are in love with her, not just care about her. Also, and I have to say this, because I didn't want to do it myself, don't stay out of pity for her. I told my H that from the beginning. I can't stay out of pity because eventually it will go back to the way it was. And I refuse to live like that again. If it's just feeling sorry for her, it will never work.
As for her changing...well it's possible. Can my H change...he says he can because he really wants too. He said that unfortunately it took me having an affair to open his eyes as to how badly he was treating me, and it also showed him just how much loves me. That he never wants to hurt me like he did, and never wants me to feel the way he made me feel again. H apologized to ME for pushing me away.
We are definitely going to counseling, but in the last 4 days we've talked more to each other and laughed more with each other than we have for our entire marriage. I'm willing to give it a shot with him. I know he loves me, and I've always loved him. Just over time my love began to die because of his actions toward me.
I've also told H, that this can't be the "deathbed conversion" (thanks to you for saying that rain!) This has to be for real, because if it's not, our marriage is over. And next time, he won't get another chance.
So all that to say...can she change...yes, but only if she's really willing too. Separating from her might help you think clearer, or it might just push you away from her. Either way you have to do what you have to do. If you are both willing to try, I suggest dating again. Honest to God dating...and see where it leads. You may find you fall in love with her all over again, or you may find she's not what you want.
Or you may realize that you've given her every opportunity and now it's too late. Only you can determine that.
(((((((RAIN)))))))))) I want to thank you for all your support through my situation, and know that through yours, I'll be right here for you too!!
Rainbow
I think a relationship can change, “really change” if both people are putting in 100% effort to change it. I’m sure it’s an uphill battle, but I think it can be done if there is a love left between the two people and a genuine effort put forth. The question is…do you really believe your W wants and is capable of putting in this effort?? Another question: is there a possibility that you might regret not giving this marriage one more try if she is??
I read your long thread from the other day, and I think you are absolutely doing the right thing by moving out into your own apartment to clear your head. However, it’s still a tough place to be. I can only imagine how difficult it would be to make a life-altering decision like this; and I think it’s going to be very difficult to make this decision without breaking contact with both your wife and OW for some time…JMO
I wish you luck and happiness…
Charlotte
Edited 3/31/2004 10:27 am ET ET by charlotte1203
I think it really depends upon the person, how committed they are towards the process, how happy you have kept them and thus how much in love they are with you to be willing to change the habits that you dont like. Again marriage is a two way street and a compromise and one needs to make sure that one is doing his or her share before wanting the spouse to perform their share.
I will give you example of my husband if he changed his spots or not. He did. We got engaged in college (I was 19, he was 21), married 3 and a half years later. I am an engineer so I do everything objectively (that word was thrown a lot yesterday :-) ) Thus I will explain all the areas in which he significantly improved or so to say changed his spots.
1) Finances, Life Goals - In college he was a big party go-er, was a below average student and was neglecting his studies to the extent that it was affecting our life by postponing our marriage, this irresponsible pattern improved a little after we got married but still for many years, I was the grad student (and later on employee) flying with high colors with scholarships and stuff whereas we would PAY for his studies in grad school and he still remained irresponsible and would get Cs and Ds. I would be doing his take home quizzes, working on his project, completing his assignments...its not that I wanted to..it was like if I didn't he wouldn't even get the few As that he got to maintain his GPA. The turning point came when he got kicked out of his program, his not existent humility took a 180 degree turn and then he just changed. With his incomplete masters he got a job (not a very high paying one) while I remained in the top team in my company. Ultimately I realized that maybe it was me who was giving him that comfort level. So I left a very good job so that he could get the full dose of a wife, three kids, health insurance, mortgage and such. And Boy that really spurred him....the point is that he always had the good intentions but I guess didn't like the studies, preferred the hands on work or maybe never needed to work hard enough since I the perfect student, mom, wife and worker was around. Now he is totally changed. He tells me he is NEVER going to ever depend upon my salary and is proving that. There was time when he was at the lowest in his school and now he is the main decision maker in the company where he works and everybody depends upon him. He also improved his spending habits and is a financially responsible person.
2) Making his family a priority and Trust issues - When we got engaged, my husband was the life of the party, a big show off, always doing things for attention which was ok but the bad thing was his too many interactions with girls. He was just always around girls. I did have complete faith in him then and just figured that since he didn't have a sister maybe he just treated the girls in a sisterly way. When he showed a few jealous episodes when he discovered me a few times harmlessly chit chatting with my own classmates I realized that this guy had double standards and his platonic attitude was maybe just a farce. With him not wanting me to go out with my male classmates, I realized he should do the same but he wouldn't. Anyway after marriage there were many instances where he was giving more attention to his colleagues (male and female) and not making his family or kids a priority. Again, I never doubted his intentions but he just did not have the maturity to understand that these kids were growing up and those precious moments with them wouldn't come back. Or that I needed to be romanced and cuddled with or wined and dined. During these occasions, he again lost a lot of trust. The turning point was when one day he had gone to a company dinner where I thought the spouses weren't invited (they weren't) but few came anyway (I didn't go although I really wanted to) and I just went ballistic on him when he came back. It was probably all that anger through the years. I called 911, police came, I was crying, sobbing uncontrollably, the police guy acting as a marriage counselor :) and it finally dawned on H that he had to mature and give us first priority and spend time with us. That was 2 years ago. He stopped going to any unofficial lunches with colleagues of opposite sex where he didn't have to go, really improved his relations with his daughters, changed completely. Looking back in retrospect, H is a very oblivious person. He is very much like that person driving in the fast lane who won't budge (just because he is not noticing and not intentionally) while there are dozens of drivers in his back. I realize that if he needs to be told anything it has to done with a horn blowing in his ears :) that's the only way when he realizes its serious. Anyway another spot changed.
3) Affection - I posted this in response to bad kitty's post a few days ago.
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-rlmyaffair&msg=35283.5
It just shows that he has changed his last spots just recently although he has done things through out our marriage to make me feel loved but now he is doing it the movie style way....the way I want it.
H has matured and improved a lot. I guess a lot has to do with age and constant nudging from me in the right direction. I realize that many of his deficiencies were because of growing up in a family where his father had an affair, got married to the other woman and severely mentally abused his first wife and his kids suffered a lot during that process. My H even tells me that all the credit goes to me for him being where he is. He says his mother did not spend this much effort on him as much as I did...the reason being she grieving throughout all these years.
I guess all these years of constantly being there for him while he matured just drained me out. My issue at this point is not whether his spots will change or not...they have...its more of being the anchor in the family for so long that I kind of lost the passion and I would like that to return. Seeing his new romantic side I can envision a very happy life with him but I am doubting the passion and I am trying to recover it. My hope is that if MM fizzles out from my memory, that passion will come back. Otherwise my marriage at this point can be labeled nearly perfect if not perfect.
I think if you feel that you are still physically and mentally attracted to your wife and its only her dominant attitude that bothers you, your marriage can be worked at. Another thing is that you should also look at your marriage from her point of view. What are her complaints? Have you done anything to fix those? I know my husband did not ever have any complaint against me. But if there are complaints on both sides, you just cant call the bad marriage her problem.
IMHO
PG
First of good luck, again.. I think it is good you are doing things for you..
Now that is out of the way.. changing of the spots? HMM, good question...I decided to have a talk with H again Monday.. Guess what.. when I was finished saying what I had to say in a normal tone.. explaining my feeling.. my true feelings..(without revealing the A, of course) he looks at me and says.. "are we finished here, now"
So, I am not sure.. I would love for my leapord to change but I do not see it happening..I try and try.. but he doesn't want to hear it.. Or maybe he hears it but does not LISTEN to what I am saying...I always have a little hope...
cassy
With all due respect, I don’t think you’ve given particularly good advice here. I will admit, I suppose it applies somewhat as rain was asking whether a “leopard can change it’s spots,” which does imply that he is wondering if his wife can change. However, a truly healthy relationship isn’t about using “strategic” maneuvers to produce changes in your spouse or significant other; it’s about two people acquiring the understanding that they must both work on themselves, and together on the relationship (then doing it, of course).
Unless each person works on their OWN issues, the problems aren’t truly going to be solved. I know you say you have a perfect, or near perfect marriage, but really, do you?? *If* you hadn’t been "forced" to quit a good job and call 911 to “drive” some of the changes you mentioned, maybe you wouldn’t be in a affair at the moment; driving theses changes obviously didn’t do much good to promote your total happiness. (I am assuming you are in an affair since you mentioned a MM.)
What you have done has lent success to changing your H’s spots, but how much success has it lent to truly turning the “spots” of your marriage into healthy ones??
Hope you don’t take offense to my thoughts…
Charlotte
I think my advice does apply in the sense that the question was related to *if* a person can change. My opinion is yes they can. Now there are people who are perceptive to other peoples needs ( I classify myself as such) who would work on their issues without somebody telling them. Then there are people who are genuinely sincere in their hearts and do not intentionally want to hurt anybody but because of the type of upbringing they had they remain oblivious to another person's wants and have to strategically maneuvered or nudged in the right direction. I don't see any problem with that because I realize that nobody is perfect....some people will do the right thing on their own....some have to be told....just like men performing sex....some guys do instinctively whats right......some have to be told.
"Unless each person works on their OWN issues, the problems aren’t truly going to be solved. I know you say you have a perfect, or near perfect marriage, but really, do you?? *If* you hadn’t been "forced" to quit a good job and call 911 to “drive” some of the changes you mentioned, maybe you wouldn’t be in a affair at the moment; driving theses changes obviously didn’t do much good to promote your total happiness. (I am assuming you are in an affair since you mentioned a MM.) "
My marriage within the past couple of years (and after the last incident mentioned in the link) is perfect in the sense that their are no outstanding issues now that need to be resolved. My problem is that I got scarred during the process and the passion disappeared somewhere. I am not in a physical affair. I have not even met my MM. My affair was an online emotional one and that too (if you had paid attention to the link I provided )happened while H had yet to change his third spot regarding being more affectionate and spending more time with me. This is achieved now. I have another good job waiting for me when I sell my home and move to the new city. I didn't lose much except giving my husband a lesson in responsibility.
As I said my H is a very oblivious person who is very trusting and a nice guy. He needs wake up calls instead of him reading peoples minds. I don't have a problem with it because thats how he is designed. I can't change him in that sense.
I don't have any contact now with MM and after this last change in H I am just on the road to cleansing my mind off MM and discovering passion.
Hope that answered your questions.
PG