Nor will I sit at home alone and cry
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| Sat, 01-31-2004 - 3:56pm |
My MM says he loves me, but he's having a hard time letting go of his marriage. That's fine. I never told him to leave her in the first place.
This week he didn't get online two nights running. Now, that could be because she was hovering over his shoulder. Or that could equally be him trying to fix things back up with her. Who knows?
I had sent him a note which was a bit curt. He responded by apologizing and telling me that we had talked all day and surely I didn't think that he'd fallen out of love with me in two hours?
Humph.
He was careful to tell me his plans for this weekend and that he didn't expect to be able to talk with me before Sunday. I appreciate that.
Sunday is the Super Bowl. I'll be watching it with my Father.
Monday, I have to work, so I won't be online for "our" time.
Now, he told me and my friends that I had to wait until the New Year to see Lord of the Rings because that's when the man I was going to marry would be able to take me.
I waited.
Enough already.
If he wants to see me Wednesday, he's flat out of luck. I have a date to see Lord of the Rings. Nice man. Single, even. ROFL.
I'm not looking to play any games. But my life will not be one where I sit at home and wait for his high holy presence. I won't bring it up unless he asks...but I refuse to sit at home alone and cry. Life is too short!
Thoughts anyone?
Cazrida

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I acknowledge that not everyone's situation is the same. Therefore, why make such a statement about a OM who is stringing a MW along? That was the point. He too, may have such circumstances that drove him to cheat on his GF with MM, then to drive him to ultimately choose his GF. So being that OM certainly has circumstances of his own, why is he the manipulative liar not worth the time of day, yet others are not? I never said everyone is perfect. Lord knows I am not. But since we know this, why does OM get such a bad wrap? I am not condoning OM's actions, but the same standard that was applied to him should be applied to others who indulge in the very same behavior.
<<<<>>>>
Gee, good question, but not nearly the same thing as the deception that goes on with A's. How many children walk around for years hurting that their parents "lied" to them about the Santa and the rest? How many children walk around thinking, "I wish they never lied about Santa. I can't trust them. Will they lie to me again?" Well, speaking for someone who has been a child who VEHEMENTLY believed in all three, I certainly don't see what harm was done other than the initial "surprise" to learn that Santa, Easter Bunny, and Tooth Fairly did not exist in the "literal" sense (but in the symboic sense and what they stand for...sure they exist...but that is another debate). Also is the motivation of having a child believe in those characters the same as the motivation behind in an A? Yea, some parents use those "legends" to get childrent to behave, clean up their room, etc. But other parents have other motivations like to set the premise of good will and selfless giving...as you said, each situation is different, so different parents have different motivations. But regardless of one's reasons for having a child believe in Santa, they don't even remotely compare to the reasons one would lie and manipulate in relationship to an A.
Pen
i don't think she was looking for a philosophical debate on affairs, but more a little sympathy!! We've all been there, right?
i'm sorry he has been fence sitting and wishy washy, and not big on communicating. i always believe we can get through anything if we can communicate about it.
This must be hard for you but your attitude sounds great!!! you can date and still have your MM in your life. He has his W. Maybe your love for each other will have you ending up as best friends for years to come.
Anyway (hugs). i dno't see how your MM is any "worse" than any one else's, unless i am missing something about what makes him lying and manipulative.
We are all grown women, we all know damn well what we are signing up for, sometimes LOVE gets things a little confusing, but we are all here for each other. Let us know what happens with SG!!!
Jenny
Thanks Jenn,
I certainly never expected to find myself here. I was completely celibate for ten years. Had MM not been such a dear supportive friend, as well as promising to protect his home life, I would never have even agreed to meet with him.
I never wanted to be a problem for him...nor to fall in love.
Problem is...I do love him. And he does love me.
I'm trying to find the strength to be friends.
But I let myself believe-and that hurts.
Cazrida
My story is very similar to yours.
Remember you don't have to rush into anything. i haven't killed myself over dating becuase i don't think finding another man to care deeply about is exactly the answer. But i have decided to try and get out into the world more, just do more things, keep busier, make more friends, and let that lead to dating.
The love MM and i have will never go away. He broke his promise to me to come and marry me (well, technically, he is fence sitting, but for my sanity and because i beileve it's true, i plan on him not going anywhere, and i just keep my little pocket of hope for when i want it or need it). But i don't think that necessarilly makes him evil. Would i WANT a man who can walk away from 20 years of marriage and NEVER look back? Don't think so. i don't think it makes him wrong, i think it makes human.
i think what he adn W have and what me and him have are just two different thigns. Will he chose me? well, probably not, but he's my best friend, he'll be my shoulder to cry on through dating and everything else that comes up along the way, just like he has been.
it's not always black and white, it's not always right and wrong. You do waht makes you happy. Are you "settling"? Hell no. Who died and left ANYONE the right to decide when we are settling and quite frankly, what business is it of theirs? i have had my friends tell me how awful he is. Why? Because he made a promise and broke it? Okay, that's a bad thing, but let's face it, fairly understandable under the circumstances. Yes, it's tempting to feel dumb for beileving them and tempting to make them look the bad guy.... but it's really just a situation of two people in love trying to make the right choices.
You are the one you answer to at night, no one else. Go out there, have fun, and when you need a hug or some hot sex, call your MM, and enjoy.
Just me .02, sorry so long, shutting up now :)
jen
<<<<
i don't think she was looking for a philosophical debate on affairs, but more a little sympathy!! >>>>>
The original post asked for "any thoughts" but I am sure Caz was looking for sympathy as well. She got my sympathy, as well as the sympathy of others in addition to their "thoughts" on lying manipulative men, and I responded to those "thoughts" as well.
Had the post only asked for sympathy and no one gave their thoughts, I probably would not have responded. But any hoo, I think philosophical discussions, where "thoughts" are asked for can be very beneficial to a person in such a position. It may have them go about things differently when another potential for a similar situation presents itself. She may do things different...or choose to repeat the same patterns.
Jenn, you said...
<<<<>>>
Then you said, <<<<<...and when you need a hug or some hot sex, call your MM, and enjoy.>>>>>
Same thing can be said for your advice. Who died and left it up to you to advise Caz to see MM (who is causing her so much hurt)for hot sex and quite frankly, what business is it of yours?
Caz, you really sound like MM hurt you. I hope you do enjoy the super bowl with your dad and move on past the hurt. If you are looking to learn something from your experiences, this should tell you that despite your love for MM and his supposed love for you, and despite his past support and your friendship, something must be inherently wrong with this kind of R...for you anyway. I wish better for you. I hope you wish better for yourself.
Pen
Edited 2/1/2004 6:21:15 PM ET by pensiveone
When reading the original post, what I came away with was a woman who was having trouble *at this particular moment* with the confines and restrictions that, by definition, occur with most affairs. Those dark moments suck. That moment when you're alone with yourself and you're worried you're being played for a fool. Or that he's just blowing wind up your skirt so that *he* can get up your skirt. We've all been there, it's a gut-wrenching feeling. We know this. Few things feel worse than these moments of private hell that pop up from time to time in an affair.
I think her approach, in her situation, is a pretty healthy one. Have her cake and eat it too, that's what she's doing with going out with SG but not calling it off with MM. And that's okay, because, really, that's what he's doing, too. And that's okay. Particularly if they are both on the same page and realize that.
But the philosophical discussion intrigued me, too. There is no black and white, only shades of grey, and anyone trying to see all this in black and white isn't seeing the whole picture. Someone who lies and manipulates in all areas of their life? Not to be trusted. If her MM is that way, then yes, she should have a large time with SG with no regrets. An MM who has found himself in love, but in a love that is badly timed, well, then, I agree with Jen in that who are we to pass judgement? It's two people in love doing their best to do right by all concerned in their life.
I *know* how I feel about my particular circumstance and what lying my SO does regarding me. So I open it up to Pen...shades of grey here. SO has an open relationship with his g/f. She apparently has several other 'boyfriends', although it is my SO with whom she lives. I never before had an affair, but I *was* married when I took up with him. I moved out 4 months ago (for my own reasons, not for SO, we have no plans at this point for taking it to the next level) and divorce should be final by mid-March, God willing. I lied - and continue to omit the truth - regarding the affair to spare H humiliation and hurt. SO lies to his g/f about me to protect *me* should there ever be a court date that would affect my visitation of my children, NOT because he's trying to make her think there's no one else. If I had been single, he would have told her about me. So yes, he's lying. And manipulating her. Do I think that makes him a terrible person? No. His motives are honorable. Am I a terrible person? Of course I don't think so. Nothing is to be gained by letting soon-to-be-ex know he was cuckolded except to anger and embarrass him. Why would I do that to him?
So, Pen, by your value system....should SO and I 'waste' our time on each other? We've each been lying and manipulating for something like 9 months now. As I said, I know *my* answer to that question and am comfortable with it. I'm not looking for validation of my choices, but as I do enjoy your discourse, I'm interested in what you have to say about it.
Lucky
Edited 2/1/2004 7:24:55 PM ET by luckyme814
Edited 2/1/2004 7:27:12 PM ET by luckyme814
Lucky, you managed to say things much clearer than I could.
I've held this relationship with open hands. Unfortunately, at a time when my life was beseiged with multiple stressors, his was as well. If he were the kind of man to lightly walk away from a twenty five year commitment, I would be an idiot to have any trust in his ability to care for me.
I don't know where we're going. I am afraid that he's repairing his relationship with his wife and doesn't know how to tell me. He prefers to do so in person, I know. I respect that as well.
The problem lies in my knowledge that we both really want more. And if he's making decisions, I can't deal with them in the dark. ::frowns::
I don't do insecurity well. I'm making my own decisions. I feel walls going up, and I'm helpless to prevent that. They are probably for the best, but I really, really need some time to talk with him. If he has chosen to focus on his marriage, I'll hurt, but I'll support him. We'll still be friends. There is a part of my heart which will always belong to him. I believe it has from before time. And I'll be careful to limit things to what they should be.
If he's still wrestling with wanting to be with me, however, I need some reassurance. I'm not good at asking for that. In fact, I'm terrible at it. I tend to just move on and ignore my own feelings. That may not be healthy, but its the only way I've learned to get up and go on.
My date is just that. It's two people going to see a movie together. I'm not looking for a replacement or a new love. I just want to get out and have some fun. A friendship never hurts.
I haven't said anything to MM about it. There is no sense in flaunting it. I'm not trying to make him jealous. (Although, I suspect he would be. He's a hunter above all...LOL)
Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful comments and responses. I'm floundering here. We're supposed to go to a convention at the end of this month. It's been planned for months. I want to go, but I'm getting nervous. I think it would be best if I were a bit more aloof...I have my own room, and perhaps that's where I should stay. If I place too much importance on this...showing him how much I care, I fear it will backfire and I'll be even more hurt.
Any thoughts? Help? Prayers?
Back to the Super Bowl. Prayers are needed there, as well. LOLOL
Cazrida
Thanks for joining in. I think I sense more pain from Caz vs. the have her cake and eat it too attitude. It already sounds to me like she has sacrificed more than she wanted to for this person. Even though she says she will not sit home and cry, it still sounds to me like MM has power over her…she won’t sit home and cry, she will go out with friends, other guys, etc. But when MM comes a calling, I think she will go a running. That may not be the case, but that is what I gathered from what I read. She did say that if MM wants to see her this Wed, he is out of luck. But MM may not want to see her Wed and if he does, she may still see him. Oftentimes people say one thing and do another, especially where emotions such as these are involved. Even if she does not see/talk to MM this Wed, there may be other days that she is there for him and his needs when he calls on her vs. the other way around. Because she has shown the level of emotion and hurt that she has, I don’t think she can truly be fine with being in a “cake person” relationship. As you say, I don’t think it is that “black and white”.
About the shades of gray…I’m with you on that…I NEVER see anything in black and white. That is also why I asked questions regarding the post that made such a general statement about MM being lying and manipulative. What could be more of a black and white statement as, “These manipulative and lying men are not worth wasting your weekend and life on” . Along similar lines, one person wants to say no one has the right to voice their thoughts on a situation, but at the same time, they are advising someone to “do what is right for you” but then they tell them to continue with behavior that appears to be pretty damaging for the individual. I don’t get. It all boils down to relativism and self centeredness…if “I” say someone is manipulative and a liar, and if “I” say mess around with married man when you want hot sex, then what “I” say is all good. But if someone says something contrary to what I believe, how dare they! Who gave them the right to say such things so opposite of my own philosophy….
About you and your situation with OM. I am ALL FOR open relationships if that is what people want. I question A’s because of all the lying and deceit; not that someone is not monogamous. As I said, I do believe things are not black and white. Even though your OM was withholding the truth about you to his GF, I don’t consider what he did as manipulation because his motives where not to keep her where he wanted her (she sees other men) but to not make her privy to info that could hurt the relationship between you and your kids…if it ever came down to that. I don’t view his withholding information was not for personal gain or some sort of upper hand.
With the limited information that I know about you and soon to be xH, my first response is that what you were doing to him was manipulation and was not a good thing to do. I don’t know if he was abusive, had affairs on you, or what. You stated, <<<< Nothing is to be gained by letting soon-to-be-ex know he was cuckolded except to anger and embarrass him. Why would I do that to him?>>>>> My question is, why would you want to cheat on him if were all and all a good H? (but I don’t know if he was). People always say things like, “Until you have walked in my shoes”…well, we can’t walk in everyone’s shoes, but we certainly can aspire to try to imagine ourselves in other people’s shoes. So while some people preach, “Until you have walked in my shoes”, they should practice how it feels to be in BS’s shoes. Again, failure to do so appears to point to self-centeredness. Your H has a different personality from me and all that, but if I put myself in his situation, I would not be spared by having a WS hide her A from me. I would want to know. Therefore, I could cut my losses and move on. I would not want anyone’s pity. I would want the truth. I would feel literally cheated if I learned later that while I accepted the marriage, while I forsaken others, while I at times felt in a rut, etc. I was willing and able to be patient with it all and work through it, while my spouse was not. Sure, I’d be hurt, embarrassed, and even humiliated if my spouse did not want to keep the promise of marriage, but you know what…I’d get over it. I’d be more hurt to find out this façade was going on for some time all under the guise of not wanting to hurt me. But, that is me. Your H may be very different.
Pen
I will pray for you and I wish you the best. I think you have made a mistake, that did not seem to be a mistake at the time. You are quite honest with yourself about your insecurities and all. You know this man and this situation better than we do, and it sounds like you already know how this is going to turn out. You are just honest in saying that it hurts. As cliche as this sounds, think of it as character development for you and adding to your wisdom. You get all kinds of advice here, and even though some are fine with A's (even though they acknowledge the rollercoaster humps of it all), it appears you are not cut out for such a thing. That is not really coming from me, but from my observations from what you have shared.
Take care.
Pen
Pen, lighten up. You are putting words in my proverbial mouth, and i don't like. i never said "how dare anyone disagree with my philosophy" or however you worded. All this A crap is hard enough without having to justify our every move. i thought perhaps making Caz feel a little less like every move she makes has a novel of meaning behind it would help. Lighten up. It's only life after all.
i am sure there will be many a paragraph, again, on how "wrong" i am. My point is Caz, you do waht's best for you, you do the best you can, and your friends here will support you. THAT was my point. Do what's best for you.
i won't be replying any more to this post, i'll just agree to disagree with Pen.
Jen
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