Pensive One, are you out there?
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Pensive One, are you out there?
| Mon, 01-05-2004 - 12:00pm |
hey pensive - whew girl, it took me all morning to go through all the "why did i want to believe him" thread! you guys were rocking! talk about free speech and all, that was great.
Edited 2/17/2004 2:52:29 PM ET by gurlfriend50
Edited 2/17/2004 2:52:29 PM ET by gurlfriend50

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Thanks for volunteering the rest of your story. I certainly don't think you are a selfish person where BF is concerned. According to you, he is a good guy and I don't doubt that, and you have worked out the major issues. But by going by your previous posts, it sounds like HE got the great deal in the relationship you two have. I mean you both are living in your house, you work, and I think I deducted that he is retired. He stated that he finally found the total package (you), while once upon a time, he had a problem with alcohol, selfishness and other issues that you stuck out with him for many years. Not to mention, in relation to him, you are a young "chick" to boot ;0). If he had all those issues in the past and still has lingering ones, good guy or not, I can see why he does not fulfill all your needs, or any other man you dated for that matter if BF was the one you decided to live with. As you mentioned, BF may know about you having an A deep down, and also as you mentioned, you do a lot to make him feel loved and special. I say again...what more can a man like BF ask for and it would probably be in his best interest not to confront you with your having an A.
Because MM has been married 3 times and has had many experiences with being cheated on, I think he learned to cheat. I guess once a person allows it to happen to them so many times, they begin to think it is the way of the world. Also, maybe deep down inside he feels better to cheat than to be cheated on. He may think, "Well, my first two wives cheated on me, and I trusted them. What is keeping this one from doing it too? Well, I'm gonna cheat now". I know you said that MM's W has disinterest in sex, and she confided this to you. The effects of past partners having A's may have had a different effect on her, than it does MM, thus may be the reason for her disinterest in sex. I wonder what are the chances of her having an emotional with someone at some point, especially if she "senses" (not discovers)MM having an A. Hmmmm....
Well, these of course are just my thoughts and opinions. You know these folks better than I do. But I am looking at it all from a more objective perspective. I am, after all, Pensive.
Pen.
As I said before, you are obviously quite intelligent, and definately witty. I already knew that you are way too clever to think you are God's gift to men. But you definately are the perfect woman for BF and MM for all the reasons you stated.
From what you said, it sounds like MM's wife does not have a clue about the A. But I naturally think that if someone is involved with an ongoing A for any length of time, their spouse/SO would HAVE to sense something, even if they dismiss it as paranoia or are in total denial. The spouse may not necessarily know the who, where, when of a suspected A, but I think most sense something. Didn't you suspect something was up with your H before you absolutely found out about his emotional A that was eventually consumated w/OW? And didn't you say your BF probably suspects something subconciously, despite how good you are to him and all that attention and loving you give him?
Often, spouses who actually suspect their partner is having an A or think they are capable of it will tell others how well their spouse treats them. This can be a means of distracting them from their suspension, as well as reassuring themselves and convincing others. And lets not forget...one of the signs for SOME betraying spouses is treating the spouse they are deceiving extrodinarily wondrous (i.e. like a queen or king)! Now just IMAGINE that MM's W DOES know about the A. I know this sounds far fetched, but bear with me. Let's say one day she decides to tell H, or you and H, that she knows. Let's also IMAGINE that you can't deny it (she has proof or something). But lets also IMAGINE that she says she is fine with the arrangement. After all, she is dealing with all sorts of physical pain and DH treats her like a queen otherwise. Do you think that you and MM would be relieved? Or do you think MM would be bothered by the fact that she does not care about his A? Be HONEST. Do you think you and MM would continue your R and even be more open about it since MM's W is aware and cool with it? Now flip it around and imagine this same scenario in regards to your BF revealing that he knows about the A. How do you think you and MM would respond to this?
By the way, it is not unheard of for spouses and SO's to be very much aware of their partner's A but are quite good at not letting on.
As far fetched as it sounds, do you ever "fantasize" about how wonderful it would be if you and MM could openly see each other, openly have your cake and eat it too, and your SO's openly being fine with it and not wanting to disrupt the status quo?
Yea, MM may not have made a conciously deliberate decision to cheat with you due to what happened in his 2nd marriage. But you have to admit, catching your spouse with your best friend on tape is likely to have a profound impact on most anyone for years and years to come, even when one re-marries. I guess it is not uncommon to develop these voids that one yearns to have fulfilled, especially after two failed marrirages, which is the case with MM.
Someone posted a message comparing A's to cocain, and I must say,I agree with the analogy more and more each day. You and MM became hooked on each other after your first time together, the way many people get hooked on cocain after the first time.
Thanks so much, yet again, for sharing Gurl. I am learning a lot from you and truly appreciating all that you are offering.
Edited 2/17/2004 2:58:10 PM ET by gurlfriend50
No drama for you?….I had to chuckle a bit and I don’t mean to come off as sounding sarcastic. An A is the epitome of a drama (secrets, good acting, covering up, etc.) that could unfold any minute. Dramas are complicated, as are A’s. Even though you live one day at a time, you and MM must have thought some of this through in terms of what you would do if discovered. You are both too smart not to have done so. You have, after all, discussed what you both have to do to keep the status quo going.
Regardless of how careful you two are, those who are discovered for ANYTHING (be it affairs, white collar crime, fraud, etc.) are usually the most intelligent, careful and cautious people in the world but end up getting caught through an ironic simple twist of fate….something that no parties involved in had any control over….an event which had it not occurred, the “secret” would have still been kept safe. Oh, I know this sounds like I got this from watching t.v. or something, but truth of the matter is I’ve seen it happen in real life enough times to believe it could happen to anyone.
You mentioned that both you and MM are fulfilling huge voids in your lives and that you have not come across someone who can satisfy all your needs. Even though BF has come along way, and is basically a good guy who is nuts about you and you love him as well, I’ve deducted (from what you posted about him) that he does not have as much to offer as MM in other admirable areas you may desire, even though you all hang in the same social circles. Again, from what I’ve deducted from your posts (or what you can’t post), MM sounds like he has power, prestige, money, etc, more so than BF anyway. And no, I am not asking you to give me more specifics about what MM does and I would not want you to post ANYTHING that could jeopardize things for you or him. At the same time, MM loves his wife, and according to you he would never leave her. Yet, he appears to have deeply ingrained trust issues due, in part, to the pain he has suffered from his 2nd W and best friend. Fact that he is not “getting any” from W does not help either. Do you suppose part of this HUGE void you feel is that fact that men like MM may be unobtainable to you except for being in an A, even though you are quite intelligent, witty, financially stable, etc.? And even though you and MM have something you describe as wonderful that is growing emotionally, possibly into love, he will always have the need to protect his emotions (rejection, subconscious mistrust, etc.), and an A accomplishes that to some degree (even though there are other valid factors involved in the special R you two have)? Is this where the voids come in?
You mentioned MM would stay married whether YOU were in the picture or not. But what if MM’s W was not in the picture for whatever reason (i.e. she made the choice to move on, regardless of how unlikely you think that is and despite what she has said in the past, regardless of if she found out about A or not), do you think MM would want more with you, even if it is not marriage, but to be each other’s SO’s? Or is that something you find best not to ponder, thus falling into the “taking it one day at a time” category. If (and this is a BIG IF) your BF and his W were out of the picture for some reason, what could possibly keep you and MM from trying to form a future together, seeing that you give so much to each other now…to the point of not wanting to fathom the thought of the A ending (which it most likely will one way or the other, sooner or later)? Do you think you two will have trust issues and other voids if you were to become each other’s primary SO’s?
In the Once a Cheat Always a Cheat started by Cheatingheartache, you stated, ***and i do trust MM implicitly with my emotional well-being as well as sexual well-being because those are the parts of my life i have entrusted to him*** but later in the same discussion, you posted in another message you stress one should have a level head about such R’s and enjoy them for what it are. Even though you are not trying to plan a future MM, do you think that entrusting him with your emotional well being goes in accordance to you advice about being level headed about such R’s?
By the way, is this your first and only A? How about MM?
Pen
You sure are busy (I see you all over the board). You sort of remind me of Rose and I get you two confused sometimes. Yea, I guess I am a bit guilty of dissecting your psyche. You share so much about your circumstances.
So you want to know a little about me? Here it goes. I have to be sort of careful the way I answer the questions as to not violate the guidelines of this board, but then again, I see violations ALL over this board. So let me preface this by saying the message below contains my observations (opposed to opinions) and I ask many questions (opposed to making judgements).
This board invites the discussions of people that are having EMA’s or have thought about staring one….well let’s say I am very loosely in the category of “thought about starting one”. I am happily M (1st and only M)and been w/ H going on 6 years. I am not, nor have I ever been (to my knowledge) a BS to date. From what you wrote, I am considerably younger than you, but not quite as young as others who write to this board.
To answer your questions of me about A’s…Despite my relatively young age I know, and have known, many people over the years ranging from younger than me to the elderly…many who have affairs and many who have not. After comparing the two, it appears that many of those who willingly involve themselves in A’s have unresolved self esteem issues. Everyone has some level of self esteem issues somewhere, but with people involved in A’s, it appears to be more profound and the A is used to attempt to numb or hide it. This is evident by the overwhelming desperate posts here. If not, there would not be this support board with SO many messages from people feeling guilty, hurt, used, abused, desperate, played, etc. Of course others speak of how grand their A is. There are probably a few exceptions, but based on my observations, most of those few exceptions will only be exceptions for a while. To further answer your questions about women and A’s, it appears many women engage in A’s for any, or a combination of the reasons you mentioned, and then some (the chase, allure, attention, etc. In a way, one could say it is learned behavior for many. Due to observations, it appears that many women having A’s have been cheated on in the past by a current or former SO/H/BF, or highly suspected them of it. I don’t know how much lurking you’ve done on the BS site, but MANY women are dealing with situations in which their H is involved with an OW who was having trouble with her own SO/H/BF or was left by him. Some people admit to having such issues with their men, while others may not to cover the insecurity (i.e. tell people only what you want them to know). That is why having an A takes on such an appeal…those involved can feel sexy, desirable, romantic, etc. I know one post here stated that they had been cheated on, but are not the kind of person who would sit around and whine about how unfair it is, etc. and not to depend on another person for their total happiness. Ironically enough, the way the response was written sounded like masked bitterness from the author. I’ve seen this type of response many times from close female friends having A’s. Also, I did not see where getting married and expecting a spouse to keep their vows had ANYTHING to do with a person totally depending on their spouse for the happiness.
I’ve been approached plenty times in regards to a “little action” (by local celebs as well as a couple wider known personalities), not to mention all the men I’ve worked around. I’ve always crossed paths with men I have Oh so much in common with. So there have been plenty of opportunity for A’s. But I, for one, do not think anyone has to be particularly attractive or special to have an A either.
H has had opportunities too. He tells me all about them. I guess all of us in this human family will always have opportunities to “play”, especially with so many people looking to “playmates” whether it be to fill voids, feel challenged, feel power, control, etc.
I have male friends that I am very close to, more than my H in some ways. But these men are like brothers to me. In most cases, I am very close to their W’s/SO’s as well. In the past, I had male friends, who were involved with someone, try to test my waters. But I don’t have anything to do with them now because I felt they violated a friendship. It is funny that the hurt, betrayal and disloyalty that many women on this site feel from their MM is the same feeling I had if someone I trusted as a friend tried to pursue anything with me while they, or myself, were involved with someone else. I was never flattered by this and actually felt insulted (even though the approach was “tasteful” for the situation). In the past, I’ve had a former so called girlfriend or two try to test the waters with a former BF or potential BF. Each time, the person had MAJOR esteem issues I knew all about (which explained a lot about their pursuit of someone already involved).
As contrary as this may sound, I tend to have a VERY open mind about things, to a fault, you might say. I feel what is good for the goose is good for the gander and what is good for the gander is good for the goose. Again based on many of my personal observations from real life acquaintances, a person, involved in or contemplating an A, may find their SO/H/BF may have the same feelings/ideas/issues/emptiness etc…if only they’d ask. Of course such honesty can be dangerous and ruin someone’s “sure thing”, not to mention ego and self worth. But on the other hand, it lends to total freedom. In other words if one is having an A, chances are, their partner may be too for all the reasons they are having one. Why not? Or maybe their partner wants to have one, but thinks it best not to. I’m ALL about true liberation. I know of people who were quite angry upon finding out their SO had A’s on them MAINLY because they made a decision not to fool around out of a mutual agreement or understanding with their SO. In one case the SO (who had the A) begged their partner to have a permanent and exclusive relationship. After discovering the A, the partner was like, “Well, I’m flexible and would have been opened to dating around, but they misrepresented themselves in the relationship to get some kind of romantic thrill/deal with self esteem out of cheating on me”. Others feel they would just rather not be bothered by someone who does not want to be exclusive, and would rather be informed of this so they don’t waste anymore time with them, despite the other person reason’s for hiding the A (i.e. I don’t want to hurt him/her; they’d be so crushed). Most people would get over it (surprisingly enough), especially if informed about this earlier on. The longer the delusion goes on, the more painful it would be for everyone involved (SO’s/H’s/W’s/children/parents/etc.) once the discovery is made.
It is interesting that you don’t believe you are covering up, but keeping part of your life to yourself with the A. The key word being believe. You and MM are putting effort in making sure BF and W don’t know what is going on. If that is not covering up, what could it be? Not hiding something from someone does not mean you belong to them. If you truly felt you were not covering up the A, but just keeping it to yourself, by that same logic, you would hide the fact that you go out with friends and travel, but BF is well aware of those things. What is different?
You are right insofar about not being married or even engaged and free to do what you want, and MM makes his own decisions. But you are also close to his W. If discovered and confronted by her, would you use all the justification with her that you use in various messages on this board? Would you be remorseful? Or would you be indifferent? Have you thought about what you would say to her? You make it plain that you don’t feel guilty about your A. If you were caught, would you feel guilty then? Or would you tell BF and MM’s W, “Yea, I did it, and I’d do it again!” Is there something you despise about MM’s W or do you suspect you are subconsciously jealous of her? (Despite all her medical issues). I know, from what all you have wrote, that you have given yourself to others much of your life and need to do things for yourself. I am down with that and I wish you the best. Do you ever think you could loose more in the long run, more than BF and social group of friends…more than you anticipated? True, you may have a level head, or so it seems, while everything is going the way you want for the most part. But what happens when things fall apart? One of my favorite sayings is, “Time will tell and it always tells an interesting story end the end”. Well, I guess that is the benefit of living in the moment for many.
Edited 2/17/2004 2:59:27 PM ET by gurlfriend50
Dusty
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