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| Mon, 02-14-2005 - 10:22am |
Hi everyone,
I always knew somewhere in my mind that Ivillage had this relationship channel, I guess I never thought I would be hunting it out and using it as a sounding board. But I'm finding I have to vent and I really don't have anyone to vent too. I do some at my dad and he gives me great advice, but I rarely get to vent all out.
I'll give a history. I've been married 8.5 years and we have three wonderful kids. I'm a SAHM and DH works in a job and industry he is burnt out over. Right now it's not making the best $$ either so I've taken a part-time evening job that I can do from home. That is covering the loose ends. We recently (7 months ago) moved from the East coast to the south to be closer to my family. I now live in the same town as one of my sisters and her family and am MUCH closer to my dad. (DH promised to move me closer when my mom died 2 years ago and since he got laid off last summer.....)
Sheesh, I'm not even sure of where to begin a vent. I guess I could start with this last week but it seems like that's starting at the end. I should say that I think divorce is evil, though sometimes necessary. I want to work and work hard at making this marriage work, I'm just finding my desire to do so dropping significantly. I love my DH more than anything but right now I'm not liking him much. :) Especially today.
We had minor issues when we first got married. He thought I should clean everything and that he could pretend to still be single whenever he wanted. (Taking man time reading or playing games.) We went to a counselor because I was raised in a more "equal" environment. Mom didn't cook after she went back to school, Dad and I did the housework etc. DH let his mom do everything and his dad sure as heck didn't do ANYTHING. So we went for awhile and things got a little better. The counselor decided we didn't need any more. Then we moved away from my family to the east coast and things were fine for a couple of years. The cleaning issue cropped up every now and again, and DH admitted more to repressing than actually dealing with it. But it wasn't a major issue. (I will admit that I have cleaning issues. I have always felt like no matter how hard I try, I'm not good enough on cleaning. My mom had impossibly high standards and I HATE being made to feel I HAVE to clean and then finding out I didn't do the right things or a good enough job. Which DH has done.)
Then DH started getting to be a big pain to live with. He was moody, petulant, short with the kids (we had 2 by now), would give me the silent treatment for days. Actually are current arguments are pretty much the same as the ones that started 4 years ago. So here goes....
It always starts by me bringing something up that I have a problem with/am not happy with. DH NEVER has a problem when things are going good (other than being a big meanie mood wise). I can ask and he ALWAYS says things are fine and he doesn't have an issue. When I birng up something (I have not been happy for a few years now), he withdrawls and all of the sudden it becomes all about him. He's hurt, why should he try when nothing will ever be good enough, he has all these issues that are HUGE and need dealt with NOW (these become so overwhelming that we never get to what I brought up), he will stop speaking to me for days (cold shoulder, withdrawl of love and support all under the guise of needing "cave time"). I am not a passive person so I take on the agressive approach. If he has an issue, lets talk aboutit and deal with it now, screw the several days of downtime. They ALWAYS end with Dh "realizing" that I am not like he says (on cleaning or letting him communicate, or whatever he brings up) and that he was "wrong" for thinking it. And then we go about our merry way til the next time.
The difference now is I refuse to yell and fight. I am tired and I don't want to deal with all of this all the time anymore. Now instead of dealing with his issues that he brings up, I want to deal with mine that I brought up to begin with. Not that it's happening. Dh is very good about sidetracking us. We had a big three day ignore wifey situation last week and DH came up with some "revelations" like he always does. Only I already knew one of them, even though he still never should have voiced it to me. He told me that he gets moody and withdrawls because he thinks sometimes that it would be easier not having a wife and three kids. But then he can talk himself back into it after a few days and then he realizes it is what he really wants after he's had some time and distance. I asked him WHY he had to make this decision more than once, and he said he didn't. So I asked him WHY he did, and he said, "I don't know." DH is very bad about communicating but he broadcasts how he is truly feeling to everyone. (He claims he doesn't.) So I had told myself before this that he had this thought. Then he also realized this last time that he will agree to things and then just do whatever he wants because that is the only way he feels he has control. Another thing he has done for years...
Anyway, so that fight ends on Monday and sure enough, Saturday I bring up something bothering me and the pattern starts all over again. Only now DH wonders if he's depressed cause he has no romantic feelings what-so-ever and he claims he has no libido (which I hadn't noticed til after this past argument). He also hates holidays because I expect something spectacular and he doesn't think he should read my mind.
If there is one thing you will learn about me quickly, it's you never have to guess what I want or what I think. I know men and women communicate different so I've gone out of my way to make sure DH knows how women (me) communicate and what little nuances there are. I also have asked to be involved in deciding what to do on holidays/anniversaries so he has my input. (Which is the reason he was unable to do anything for today, cause all the sudden I wanted to be a part and that delayed things so much he couldn't do anything.) He has forgotten my birthday, mother's day, our anniversary..... So I bring it up early cause he always says "It snuck up on me. I didn't forget." So I can't win for losing. (He sent me a Mother's Day card when we were engaged to celebrate the mother I would be one day, and he ALWAYS remembered every little day. It's been after we've been married a few years that he started having them "sneak up" on him.)
Okay, this thing is huge and I'm sure very confusing. Feel free to ask questions. I just want to vent and maybe figure out different strategies. we did go to a counselor for a few months last spring/summer. DH has "offered" to go again but he doesn't talk to them when he's there. He is also very committed as long as things are going well. (Ie, we will make it work because there is no other option.) And I know there isn't anyone else.
Thanks for listening.


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I wonder how much time you spend communicating, and how much time you spend arguing over the WAY you are communicating. Proper communication is not easy. I think it sounds like marriage counseling could do you both a world of good right now.
It's interesting that you think divorce is evil. I think I was happier the day I divorced than I was the day I married. Divorce brought my life so much happiness and contentment. Your husband is right about one thing, from my perspective life is a lot easier not having a husband. I can have my home clean and organized and I don't have to feel frustrated there is an adult sitting right there not helping. I can leave dishes in the sink for a little while if I feel like it, and nobody is there to be frustrated that I haven't done them. I parent exactly the way I want and I think I'm a better mom because I can recharge when dd is with her dad.
Where your ex is wrong is about not having children. That is not a choice he has. And being divorced is work too. You still have to communicate with each other and if you can't do that, your children are going to suffer greatly for that. Where divorce becomes evil is when people put children in the middle (treating them like property that they 'own' instead of children that they equally share responsibility for), when one parent walks away from the children completely (or when one parent pushes the other out of the children's lives), or when parents are not capable of working together to put the children's best interests first, both during and after the divorce. Communication is as important after the divorce (if you have children) as it was during the marriage, so if you have problems communicating, it's best to work on them as much as you possibly can. It may save the marriage, and even if you don't make it, the work you've done to improve communcation will serve you well.
Edited 2/14/2005 11:23 am ET ET by firstamendment
I know that marriages can be better off left behind. I know that sometimes divorce is the only way left, but I also believe that it isn't the way it's "supposed" to be. And trust me, I can so see where it's easier not having to clean up after another adult, being able to do what you want more often (ie leaving dishes in the sink, etc) but there are a lot of downsides too.
I also believe that two people can work things out if they want to. I don't think that a majority of marriages are irreparable. I think people get too self-centered and refuse to see beyond what they want and how they are feeling, etc. Two people who truly want to make it work, can. And the vast majority of time, divorce is not an optimal solution for children. Like I said, it can be necessary. But it still isn't best. Best is working things out together.
I do understnad we have a problem communicating. I'm too aggressive and that is off-putting and threatening a lot of times. And he just doesn't. I ask a question and get "I don't know." We have done counseling twice and we need to go again. Last time, which wasn't all that long ago but ended when we moved, he wouldn't talk. Or would make a few comments here or there. I feel he thinks that if he doesn't know about it, then it isn't a problem. I've called our church leader to get his help and want a recommendation from him on a good counselor, so hopefully I can meet with him this week. I'm just tired and don't know what to do anymore. I'm trying to figure out how to live with it because I can't make him change. I do know that. Even though that took a few years to figure out, LOL! And I worry that I won't be able to learn how to handle it well enough to live with it and that only leaves me one option. Which is an option I really don't want to do, but I will if that's what it comes down too. Because there is a point where divorce will be the better choice, if things keep going as they are. I still think it's evil ;) but it would be necessary then. I'm just fighting to keep it from being necessary.
Oh, and I have quit yelling. I'm over yelling and fighting. Decided that in Nov and while i haven't been perfect, I've done much better. And I have a list of my issues that i want dealt with and the issues that DH brings up a lot, which I assume means he wants to deal with them. Or that they need dealt with rather. I still attack too much when I talk, I need to shift out of that. Too much you and not enough I. My dad swears he's sending me a bill someday for the countless hours of counseling he provides me, LOL!
You said in your second post that you do not believe most marriages are irreparable. I am sure this is true. But you also said two people can work it out if they want to - and that is the key. You are facing what a lot of people in marriages headed for divorce face. They know the marriage could be saved if only the other person wanted to work on it as much as they did. It sounds like you've made some progress on improving your method of communication, and maybe over time your husband will respond positively to that and you will find a middle ground you can live with.
As far as divorce not being an optimal solution for children - I can assure you my dd has faired very well after divorce. This is because she has two parents who are able to communicate and make the effort necessary to co-parent. She is much better off than she was having two parents who were miserable. Some children who are subjected to nasty divorces were products of nasty marriages, so staying married wouldn't have helped them anyway. I know that I made mistakes in chosing a life-long partner, and some of that is because I never had an example of what a healthy marriage looked like. I hope someday I can give that to my dd, if I had stayed married it would not have been possible.
Please don't think that I think you are evil for getting divorced, or that you put yourself ahead of your daughter and didn't think about her. I don't think that. Divorce is usually a lot rougher than what you have and I commend you for going the extra mile for your daughter. Usually people can't give up the games once the marriage is over. It becomes worse because they lose the control or influence they thought they had. That you two have remained adults for your daughter is amazing. Unfortunately the vast majority of people who get divorced aren't very "adult-like" in their behavior.
And just because I think something is wrong doesn't mean that the rest of the world HAS to agree with me. In my situation for who I am, divorce is evil. And too many people are too quick to divorce. But I would never assume to judge another person's life or situations, or decisions. I haven't lived through them so I don't know. You are the only one who knows if you did all you could, and as long as you know that, go hang everyone else. :)
I don't think you were saying *I* was evil, and for what it's worth, I didn't try everything possible to save my marriage. We never should have been married in the first place, it just took me 9 years to realize it and admit it to myself. There was no point in ruining three lives by continuing the mistake so we could pretend to the world that we were happy and normal - we were never going to be happy and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
No regrets though - we have a beautiful 4 year old and I wouldn't change that for anything in the world.
Edited 2/14/2005 3:19 pm ET ET by firstamendment
It seems to me that while you recognize your husband is great at diverting the subject away from the issue at hand, you've allowed it to happen. My ex was great at that too, until I wised up to what he was doing, then we stayed on track. I'm guessing that the two of you are so used to the verbal routine of how you've handled this that it'll probably be difficult to break the habit and make a change that will get to what you really need to address. As it is, it sounds like you approach with a problem, he diverts, then comes to you days later saying he realizes what you're talking about and all is well. It sounds like his approaching you is a way for him to be in control of the situation and for it to "end" on his terms. Of course, as you've said, you know that when he says he's had a realization about what you were saying, it's merely his way of making the issue go away, it doesn't mean anything's going to change and it doesn't resolve anything. In effect, what it does is add it to the growing stack of un-addressed issues that's rising in your relationship and if you're like me, eventually that stack will rise up to a level that you won't be willing to deal with them anymore. Meanwhile, it becomes another issue that's a sore spot, an open wound, an anger that grows every time it comes up. And when a new issue arises, it's not a new issue, it's another issue, and they become almost impossible to see separately or without the same growing anger that you feel when any of the others in the stack rears its ugly head again. With my ex, at first, just realizing that he was successfully managing to divert the subject wasn't enough, I still fell for it even though I hadn't intended to. I began making a point of discussing problems at an specific time, rather than when it hit me at the moment. That allowed me to prepare for the discussion, be fully focused on what the issue was and be on guard to ward off any attempts to sidetrack it. I found it very helpful to write the issue down on a piece of paper and keep it with me during the discussion. Yeah, it seems silly since it was only a few words on the paper, but I could glance down at it on the table every few minutes and recognize immediately if the subject was still what it should be or not. After a bit I did't need the paper at all and any attempts to get off subject were met by me calmly saying, "That's not what we're talking about right now. We can talk about that another time, but right now we're talking about xxxxx." That pretty much ended the side tracking and kept the issue at hand the topic of discussion. Ten Rules For Fair Fighting and Verbal Fencing With Someone You Love, are very good articles and might help you have more constructive talks.
You also have to know his days-long "cave time", his announcements of depression as well as his "admitting" to wondering what it would be like not to have a wife and kids are passive/aggressive threats. They're warning you not to push too hard, suggesting that he might bolt, that he might go off it his cave and never come back, that you're pushing him into a depressed state. It's all a scare tactic designed to make you afraid to make waves, push a subject or *make* him deal with an issue he doesn't want to deal with. It's bull. Have you ever thought about saying back to him, "You know, you're not the only one. Sometimes I think that it would be easier not having a husband and three kids." I mean sheesh, no kidding. Of course it would be easier! He's not alone there, but he's sure throwing you a quiet little threat in his musings.
As for the cleaning, the division of chores, etc. I have to say that I think you're wrong in stating that as a teenager he "let" his mother do everything. He was the kid. His mother let him get away with doing nothing. His father's actions (doing nothing) and his mother allowing it, and allowing it to perpetuate in her son taught him that housework is women's work, men don't do that. He was raised that way, just like you were raised your way. Knowing that, it should have been a given that this would be a problem spot for you, unless you planned to do it all yourself from the beginning. But, it's a little late for hindsight, it is what it is. He may do it, but from what you've said, he doesn't believe he should have to and no matter what he says, the fact that it continues to be an issues says he doesn't think it's right that he has to do it. You didn't really say, but with as much passive aggressiveness as he's shown and as much veiled anger, I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't use your cleaning insecurity as a knife to stab you with on occasion. Having recognized that you grow up to repeat what you learned, realize that your relationship is the learning ground for your children. They're learning how men behave and how they treat their wives and girlfriends; they're also learning how women behave. They're learning the roles they're watching the two of you play out over and over again, it's all they have to judge a "right" and "normal" relationship from. If you want something different for them, you'll have to show them something different. "Children learn what they live" isn't just a saying, it's a fact.
Event "sneaking up on him" rather than him forgetting sounds like another example of passive/aggressiveness. It's his way of saying, "oh no, I did't forget, I just didn't get around to doing it for you." It doesn't quite sound like that the way he says it so he can get away with not being mean, spiteful or nasty and if you call him on it he's sure to deny that he means it that way, but I'll bet that's exactly what he means. He could make the effort if he wanted to, and knowing that he's done it previously should mean the minute he thinks of it he'd take action so it wouldn't happen again. Yet he doesn't...... that's deliberate.
What about him? It sounds like he might have some issues he's dealing with too. Being laid off, not making much money, probably not too happy with the job he has, having moved to an area that I assume he has no friends or family in. All of those are pretty hard on anyone. Does he talk about them with you? Addressing his own issues might make him more open and available to addressing yours. Not that I'm saying that you're insensitive to his issues or that you insist it all be about "me, me me". If he doesn't talk about them, it's probably because he chooses not to. If he were able to open up, it might just help all of the issues you deal with.
You've got a lot of anger in your relationship. He's angry and he's taking it out on you very deliberately and very underhandedly. You're understandably angry and are trying to deal with the problems head on, to face them, work them out and move on without them. You're also understandably frustrated and angry over years of not being listened to, not being treated as a respected equal or partner, not having the issues that are important to you addressed (and therefore saying you aren't important). You have every right to be angry.
I really urge you to read "The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships", by Harriet Goldhar Lerner . It's an easy read, makes good sense, is highly recommended by therapists everywhere and gives you good, solid information that you can use to make changes in your relationship. You guys are definitely doing a dance, once you see it you'll be able to do something about it. I hear you say that he's offered to go to counseling, but doesn't talk there. I'd still take him up on it and I'd report all my concerns and issues. He can choose to stay silent, but he might just open up. Even if he doesn't, you will get some of your issues addressed and will be better for it. Check out Will Couples Counseling Help? for thoughts and maybe some things to approach him with on the subject of counseling. The standard warning my therapist friends have asked me to always add is that when going to couples counseling it's vitally important that the counselor/therapist be licensed in a field of couples therapy. Some therapists/counselors who are licensed for individual therapy only offer couples counseling as a "service". But, since working with couples is extremely different than working with individuals, the training and licensing is very important. Those therapists/counselors who offer the "service" without the training very often end up doing much more harm to the very relationships they were trying to help. It's important, be sure your therapist is qualified. In case you need help finding a qualified therapist, Referrals For a Qualified Therapist and Your Therapist/Counselor's Credentials, may be helpful.
I agree that most relationships are workable if both parties are willing to do the work to repair them. I don't agree that most divorces are not optimal for children. I think raising children in dysfunctional, angry or inappropriate households is far more damaging than raising them as single parents in loving, fair, respectful households. They can learn more about love, respect and partnership with one appropriate parent than they can with two battling parents.
"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
OKay, my last word on the whole divorce in general thing.... Divorce is not optimal, working things out is. If you can't work things out then divorce becomes necessary. And then it's better for the kids. But the best thing is for their parents to learn to live together constructively.
WOW, I won't feel bad about my long posts, LOL! I appreciate the time you took in responding.
I agree, I have let DH divert for years. For some reason it's taken me awhile to see it. Now that I notice it I will call him on it. But he's had lots of practice at diverting and I've only had minimal practice at recognizing and keeping on task. So it will take some time. I did make a list of issues and I even made a list of issues DH has. I showed him his list and told him that we would get to them but that since I said something first, it only seems fair to deal with one of mine first. Last night when I'm talking about how much some of his comments have hurt me (he said that he thought about how he would feel if I were acting the way he is, so he was friendly when he came home from work), I asked if he thought about how'd he feel if I said XYZ to him. And that's when he said, "And have you thought about the feelings I have that would make me say those things?" At which point I told him he was really good and once again was making it about him.... Of course, he tried to tell me he wasn't but I wasn't buying last night.
And yes, we have a growing stack of unresolved issues that just keep getting worse. I know his parents dealt with things in much the same way. I've been able to see that since we've been married. But DH and I met at college and while I methis parents once before the wedding, I never did spend much time around them. And they are good at hiding their dysfunction. I got sucked in (by that I mean they didn't try to hide it from me) once we married and I wouldn't join in. You should have seen the issues that caused! So I know DH has learned these tactics and behaviors from his parents. It makes it a little easier to tolerate, but not enough to ignore.
DH is as passive/agressive as they get. He avoids confrontation and yes, he does things in a very underhanded way. I honestly don't believe he intentionally says things JUST to hurt me, or does things JUST to hurt me. I also don't think he stops to think about what he says or does and IF it will hurt me. Another reason I'm trying so hard. And my dad says the next time he withdrawls and gets all cold I should say, "Oooooooo, lookie! XXXXXXXX has come out to play!" (He even has a nickname for himself when he gets in this type of mood which is what my dad thinks I should use.) After all, it's a childish behavior and my dad is hoping treating it as such will let him know what I really think of it.
And yes, I understand that his mom is the one who let him get away with his behavior as far as housework went. Unfortunately it didn't occur to me that there were men out there who really still thought it was "woman's work" to clean. I was brought up more progressive than that. AND, I told DH long before we got married that I do NOT do laundry and I DO NOT clean toilets. He said that was not a problem, that he would cover those. He also helped me frequently with dishes in my apartment, just like I would help him with the dishes in his. So I was under the assumption that since he said he would cover laundry and toilets, that meant he would cover laundry and toilets. SInce then he has said that was unrealisitic of him to agree to and I've come back with, and I DO laundry and clean toilets, though maybe not as much as he would like. But I do pitch in.
In fact, we had this discussion last night. Seems he wanted one of his issues dealt with. So fine, let's deal with one of his issues. (Tonight is one of mine, though he doesn't know it yet.) What is amounts to (but I got very confused....) He doesn't have expectations of what he wants me to do, or a level he expects the house to be at, but I'm not meeting his un-expectations. There isn't any but I'm still not doing something right. (I am an organizer. He does well at tidying. I want to know WHY I can't organize and we both tidy. His comment back at that was, "As long as I'm not the only one doing it.") I've also told him if he wants something done, ASK! He won't. He NOW says (last night) that he will try this and I'm not holding my breath. Won't be the first time he agreed to ask and not. But he still wants to start too much and then "ask" me to finish. Which in my mind is a horribly passive way of just getting me to do what he wants. Laundry~~ he will run through EVERY stitch of clothes in one day and then leave piles of unfolded laundry and folded but not put away laundry around. He asked me to help put up what is currently out, which I agreed to. DOesn't bother me. But I also told him that his way is NOT working for him and he needed to adjust. (At which point I got "So I have to change...") *Sigh* And I said, yeah, cause it's not working for you. And I'll help but I sure as heck won't be forced to do it your way like this. You don't get to do this to me. And I've also told him we just have to agree to disagree cause he will NEVER see it my way and I will NEVER see it his. And since it's all been getting done, WHO CARES? But you know, he's doing it all.
And since Nov I have tried really hard to at least keep the arguing away from the kids. Still not the best option, but better than before.
We actually moved back to the town he grew up in. (Long story as to how my sister ended up here.) So he has a lot of friends, no family, in the area. And he's very comfortable and familiar with the area. And no, he doesn't talk to ANYONE. He's the biggest bottle. Every now and then he lets the steam out, and honestly, I don't want to be around if the pressure gets too much greater. It scares me. He has SOOOO much anger inside and has no clue how to deal. I don't think he'd hit or anything like that, but his anger levels reach very scary levels.
And the whole holiday thing..... Trust me, I know he could remember. And I know it's not just it "sneaking" up.
I am going to take us to a counselor again. It scares me but I have to, because nothing will get better unless we go. It may not get better if we do, but I have to try.
So, here is my 2nd installment. And cl-2nd life, you'll never have to pull this out and to show me. I keep a journal too, which is how I finally realized that we have the exact same argument and have been, with the total same cycles, for years. I guess I've been allowing it all to be ignored. (Okay, so I know that.) And now I know it's not working for me. And I'm trying to change things.
I think I'd caution you against handing your husband a list of issues. Lists tend to be quite daunting and aren't recommended for dealing with issues, they tend to make issues seem impossible to resolve, making him feel defeated before he even begins. Considering he already avoids dealing with even one of your issues, showing him a list of them all probably won't be helpful in starting him in the right direction. I'd keep the list to myself from now on and just work on them one at a time.
Suggestion on keeping him on track? "I asked if he thought about how'd he feel if I said XYZ to him. And that's when he said, "And have you thought about the feelings I have that would make me say those things?" At which point I told him he was really good and once again was making it about him...."Even your saying that was a diversion -- staying on him. It's better if your responses are simply, "we're not talking about you right now, we're talking about me." Calling him on his diversion diverts the subject to his diverting, not the issue you want to be talking about. This is a good time to put blinders on and yeah, it's a learning process. He's had those same years to learn to divert, so you're both going to find it easy to slide into your usual way of dealing with it.
Dealing with dysfunctional inlaws can be a nightmare. My ex's parents were the most dysfunctional people in the world, I swear! I wouldn't join in either and it didn't exactly make me popular. They thought I was from another planet, but guess what, I thought the same! For the reasons you mentioned, I think it's a good idea to live with the person you plan to marry before marriage. Didn't think so "back in the day", but hindsight taught me well. There's much that can't be hidden when you live together. In your case, it sounds like you husband *thought* he could clean even though he'd not done it, reality proved to be a whole 'nother ball game!
It sounds like he certainly does have cleaning expectations, he just hasn't made himself define them. It might be easier for him to think of it in reverse, what's not acceptable to him, that way he can identify what is and you can both be on the same page.
Providing links to your previous posts isn't just for your benefit, though it's really helpful to read your "old stuff" in your own words, you get a good feel for the emotions you were feeling, really bringing it back to you and helping you see growth (hopefully there's growth to be seen!) but it's also invaluable to those who respond to your post in gaining huge insight into issues, problems and behaviors that exist in your relationship. And yeah, I'm sorry for the huge novel of a post -- there was a lot in your post to respond to!
Hope you can make some real gains, keep us posted!
"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
Edited 2/15/2005 11:30 am ET ET by cl-2nd_life
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
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