Arguing constantly...advice please

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-27-2006
Arguing constantly...advice please
52
Tue, 12-19-2006 - 10:37am

Thank you taking the time to read and respond. My fiancé and I have been together for over two years and I moved from Chicago to Portland because he is from there and I could transfer within my company. Since we moved a year ago, it was not easy for me learning the city on my own while my fiancé became a work-aholic (9am to 9pm Mon-Sun except most Sat night we go out) for his business---we began to build up a lot of walls with one another/arguing/fighting and I moved out at the end of September. We were bickering from April to August several times a week. I began socializing more with co-workers in Aug/Sept.

During the month of October, I immediately started dating a gentleman at the same company that I work at as he was a good friend hearing me vend about my fiancé, but I new I still had feelings for the x. After a week that I moved out, my fiancé wrote me a well-thought out long letter for all the things that he saw went wrong, we then sent several nice long emails back and forth followed by weekly coffee meetings and some dinners---it seemed that I saw more of him in the 6 weeks than I did living with him; I never stopped loving him, I just lost hope that we could forget the resentment/hurt feelings/things were going to change/go back to how they were in Chicago.

He tells me things constantly like I can accept that you are not everything on my ideal perfect list (I don't like partying until 4am three times a month(he is 39), I don't like being outside in the cold weather below ten degrees). It used to be that I was not petite either as I am five eight and 130 not five foot and 100 pounds, but he total accepts that now and says that I am the most beautiful person in the world.

I moved back in November and he is still working the long hard hours and the emails/text-messaging/phone call during the day has faded over the past week. I have asked (since May) for two nights a week (Saturday plus a weekday) for him to come home at 6pm and he keeps saying he wants to, but the business or he tells me fine he will quit everything, sell the house and live in an apartment. We have been in counseling and it seems to help. I love my fiancé more than anything, but we constantly keep fighting. For the past two weeks we have been fighting non-stop (I still kept my apartment while I moved back in) and he said on Wednesday to just go and find what you need so I packed up my car and went back to my apartment. Of course he called me an hour later (shocked that I left) and told me that I just don’t understand him and that he loves me and wants to work on us. Since we have been talking on the phone and we still get irritated with each other and he starts yelling at me.

I am sure this is a common-occurance with people, but it is like in my head I completely agree that this is not working and it is never going to end; but then when I see him, in the house we bought, dogs we bought together, my heart is just speaking so much louder to give it another try (but I have said this over 20 times in the past year). We are still in counseling. She can see that we love each other, and wants to commit on a hard 6 months together of work with her weekly and this was after I moved out again on wednesday to my place.

Any advice would be much appreciated and thanks for your time!

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 12-23-2006 - 12:34am
Hang on, Confused. There is a ton here and none of it's good. I'm going to go through it one piece at a time, so this will probably be mega-long. I'll apologize for that in advance, and I'll try not to get off in a tangent while I'm writing.....


First up -- your little voice being confused. It is confused because what he says and what he does don't match up. Words are easy, Confused, action is where the proof is. Don't be confused or fooled by words. You know if he's serious if you see actions that back up what he says. He may *always* tell you it's going to be different, but it's not and that tells you where his intentions are. Anyone who waits for words to come true when actions show that they're not is waiting in vain and being taken advantage of.


You say you know he loves you and your therapist tells you that too. I have no doubt that he does. But loving you isn't enough, is it? It sure shouldn't be. Love doesn't change who he is and it doesn't change the fact that who he is and what he wants for his life is not compatible to what you want. Loving you doesn't change him and it doesn't change you. Loving you doesn't make you any happier and it doesn't make this relationship any more right.


I have to tell you I took in air and held it as I read your second paragraph. I'm copy/pasting it here, I want you to read it but pretend it was written by someone else, ask yourself what you'd think if you read this about someone else's situation:
"I feel like I have been the one that has made changes for our relationship in the past year--switched jobs so I would not travel as much in March after moving here in Dec, dropped some weight(8 pounds)/firmed up and cosmetic surgery, lost money in my condo when we initially moved to here to just get it sold, and not to mention move a different state. He wants me to have a successful career, work-out five days a week/look good all the time, help him in his business after my long days at work, take care of the dogs/ make him break/lunch/dinner, clean the house, and party until 4am at least a few times a month when he so desire(which I hate staying up past 10pm as I am so tired from getting up at 5am every morning)---I just don't think I can keep doing this or want to for the rest of my life(this is MYLitteVoice too). Everytime we go out he tells me in my ear carbs--(so I don't eat more than one piece of bread) and you really need desert? He constantly checks my phone to make sure that no other guys are calling me (when I have never cheated on him) and checks my email---I feel like I am always being watched."

You feel like you've done a lot because you have done a lot. Did you read back over what he wants from you? Sweetie you are not in a partnership, there is nothing fair equal or shared about your situation. Do you see that you're running yourself ragged, killing yourself, doing everything for him and getting nothing in return???? He not only controls and direct what you do (be successful, work on my business afterward, keep my house and keep me fed, stay out and party until 4 a.m.) but he also controls you straight down to what you eat. He checks your phone and your email -- do you get to pee by yourself? I'm sorry, but this is out and out blatant and total control. You feel watched because you ARE being watched. Being checked up on and watched is not acceptable. It has no place in a healthy relationship. It is not right and it should not be accepted or allowed. It is controlling and entitled. Confused, this is a situation to get away from as fast and as far as you can. There is nothing healthy here, there is nothing right or good here. Sure, he may be a "nice" guy in one way or another, but this is abusive and I am not kidding. Control is abuse and he is controlling every step you take, everything you do. This is a serious situation and this is not right or healthy.

Confused, of course he appreciates the changes you've made. He's stroking you to keep them coming and to appease you. Cripe, who wouldn't appreciate the changes you've made? His bit about you needing to change your non-verbal cues because it sends him the wrong message and sends him off is classic abuser. He's making you responsible for his anger, he's making you responsible for his reaction, and sweetie, the only one who is responsible for how he reacts is him. However, you are the one who has to change, you are expected to change this part of you, the part that says "these things that you expect me to do is bull". He wants you to devote every second of your life to doing what he wants, and he expects you to like it. If you don't like it, he expects you to suck it up and change your non-verbal cues so he doesn't have to see anything he doesn't like. Sorry, but this is so much crap. You've got to see that, don't you? In a normal, healthy relationship, he would deal with his own reaction and would take you for what you are. Expecting you to change so you don't make him mad is incredibly controlling, entitled and superior.

Does the word "entitled" fit him? Notice how you've made all these changes and have all these demands and expectations placed on you but he doesn't have to change a thing? Notice how you're not good enough as you are and need to make changes, but he doesn't? Entitlement is at the heart of abuse, and abuse is about a lot more than being physically hit.

Confused, control is abuse and your relationship is abusive. That being the case, your therapist is not appropriate for you and seeing her is not appropriate and will not help. It will, in fact, make it worse for you. Here's why:

"Regular" vs. DV Counseling

Here are a few informational posts on relationships. Take a look and see where yours stacks up:

Is Your Relationship Healthy?
Rship Components - Healthy & Unhealthy

Let me know what you think.







~ cl-2nd_life

"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"

~ Author unknown



Edited 12/23/2006 1:17 am ET by cl-2nd_life








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-27-2006
Sat, 12-23-2006 - 6:19pm

Thank you for all the excellent advice. Everyone on this board has helped me so much in the past couple weeks and I am very thankful for all of it. I am getting through this difficult time and being strong; a lot of which has to do to postings on these message boards.

What do I want?---I have no clue anymore. Everything just seems so blurry to me right now. I saw my X for the first time last night in a week and a half and he told me everything that I wanted to hear---he was going to work hard on therapy, make more time for me, tell me that I am his number one priority, very beautiful, apologized for going into my car to check my phone at the start and said that he would stop checking my phone and asking to see my email(counselor told him three weeks ago that is wrong and he needs to trust me), took the time to have a long good conversation with me and I did have the courage to tell him that I needed my space right now and I don’t know what the future holds as I am very confused and don’t want to get in bad habit pattern. He said tearfully that he understood though he wants me to move back in….he then said that he will work on his own in therapy while I take this space and asks that I tell him if I have started dating because he won’t until I do (what does this sound like to you?)

You are right, what he says and does are two different---he says for 9 months now that he will fix the bathtub (he broke it in march by accident and keeps saying every week, next week when he has time) and he hasn’t (which is/was one of my favorite times). He says that he doesn’t want to tell me how many guys tell him that I am pretty because he doesn’t want me to get a big head.

Yes, I do feel like I am running myself ragged and the reason I know I need a break. I feel mentally drained. The only thing I have asked for all year is to go on a trip and spend some time with me. He says that if I talked nicer than it would have happened, but because of my nonverbal cues causing him to get upset he decided that he did not want to take me anywhere this year.

So back to what do I want right now?---I know it is a wrong and unhealthy relationship, but when I see him and the tears, my heart goes out to him because I do love him, but head knows that I can’t keep living like this and that I need to completely break it off. So then I ask myself, what do I love about the relationship?-my dogs, house we put together, if I need someone (I am alone in Portland) in an ems, he is there for me, I do respect/admire his work ethic though seems to contradict that I feel that he does not have anytime for me.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-27-2006
Sun, 12-24-2006 - 1:19pm

You are right, he is emotionally trying to control me. I don't know why I keep trying when I know in my head it is wrong, but my heart is crying. I am always wanting to move forward and let water under the bridge (as most are fights are nonverbal cue initiated/him reacting) while the X always wants to analyze the past and process through it.

He resents me fo the fact that we moved here and I was not as happy as I should have been (my nonverbal cues disappointed him). I can admit that it was hard and things were upseting to me as I delt with an unplanned pregnancy that ended in a miscarrage, job difficulties, lost money in my condo. He at first resented that would not go out and party hard until 4am, that I was not more outdoorsy in zero degree. I resented him that he kept pushing the wedding date back for fear of his commitment level---original date was april then may then june then august then 2007---we would make destination wedding plans and he continually pushed it back because he was scared as he was married before and it did not work out five years ago. Then when I moved out at end of August, things did get nasty and I was scared the day I left as he was screaming at me and banging on my car not to go (when reality actually set in, he could not believe that I would actually leave as I was not from here) so I put a restraining order on him (the day before I found a tape recorder/tracking device in my car that he had put in there which scared me) which I dropped a week later as I could admit at the time I was completely freaked out, but I don't think he would physical harm me. When we have gotton into arguements the past month he brings it as ammo to basically tell me how horrible of a person I am.

Then he will call a couple hours later and we make up. He says done, over this time you spoiled bitchy brat (prabaly about 20 times in the past year), now since August, I don't think twice to leave and go to my apartment as now I have somewhere to go. We appologize to each other. This is how its been. We are now in therapy the past month, but still have the same old fights. Like I said, I love him so much and hate to see him hurting when he is begging for me to come over and I say no. He says he loves me and we will get through this as he states the therapist says that when he says done, over, yelling at me I should not actually take that as him wanting it to be done rather a dirty old habbit pattern and let him cool down---but do I really deserve to be talked to like this? & wait for him to forgive me completely for putting the order on him when at the time I was scared?

Again, thank you to everyone for allowing me to vend, help me and respond to my emails.

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-27-2004
Sun, 12-24-2006 - 9:20pm

Let me get this straight: He has screamed at you and pounded on your car, he put a tracking device on your car, he didn't believe you would leave him because he thought you had nowhere to go, you were sufficiently afraid of him to get a restraining order (and he resents the fact that you took steps to preserve your life when his behavior was irrational), and numerous times he has called you a spoiled, bitchy brat. Confused, you have the patience of a saint.

And where did you get the therapist who criticizes YOU instead of your boyfriend when he's the one who behaves aggressively? Is it his mom?

You have so many reasons to kick this guy to the curb. Don't worry about him when he cries--it's a manipulative device to keep you roped in. He will never marry you, he will always blame you, and he will use you as long as you let yourself be used. Please stop this endless loop and get away from him.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-27-2006
Sun, 12-24-2006 - 10:19pm

Everyone—thank you so much for your help---these boards have helped me tremendously and gotten me through this time of year. I have been keeping all this bottled up inside of me for the past year and it feels good to get it off my chest and hear from others that this is manipulative behavior. You are right, I am like a puppet on his string. People look at me though, and think that I have everything living with this guy five caret diamond engagement ring, huge house on a golf course, and other material items---people think that my X is the nicest guy in the world and have no idea the screaming matches that go on inside the home as my X strongly advises that I talk to no one about our problems except the therapist.

I too, thought it was me for the past year and I have tried to change pretty much everything about myself (my friends and family back home in Chicago say that they don’t really even know who I am anymore). My X knows I have a guilty conscious and always try to please everyone and now I am realizing that he is completely playing off of that through these posts. I saw him the other night and I would not accept the Christmas gift he bought me, though it was so hard as I saw my puppies and wanted to be with them on Christmas. He has left me ten tearful VM’s in the past two days hoping that I come over to spend Christmas with his family, I have stood my ground, but it is so hard because I don’t like the thought of him crying especially on Christmas?

The therapist said this would be a good 6-9 months of solid hard work. She advised that we only talk about certain hotopics with her to keep the fighting at a minimum, but I don’t think that I am willing to put in 6-9 months? To hopefully get this figured out between me and him. I am really seeing the light from all the help and support that I am recieveing from these and thank you all so much!

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 12-25-2006 - 1:31am
Good for you for staying strong and standing your ground about Christmas!

Confused, your ex is a controller, a manipulator, and as such, the therapist you have is not able to work with you appropriately or effectively. I'm wondering, did you read the informational post about therapy I linked to my last response? She's suggesting the time because she believes and expects that your ex is genuinely committed to changing. "Regular" therapists go on the premise that each are there with the best of intentions. This is not the case with controllers and manipulators, she is not trained to recognize his traits. You can go to therapy for six months or six years, but you'll not make progress and you'll not feel better.


My sister-in-law (actually my ex-husband's sister, but we still see each other) is married to a verbally abusive, controlling man. She also has the million dollar home, new cars every six months, the six carat rings and more. She also is never good enough, never does things quite well enough, but then, just like in your situation, nothing ever will be good enough, even if she were perfect. It's a high price to pay, your life and happiness for material things. She's lived long distance for the last several years and recently disclosed that she has had five ruptured discs over the last few years and injured her neck and back during their last move requiring her to be in traction. I suspect her husband has moved on to being physically abusive, though I doubt she'd ever admit it, even to me.


The fact that you're so unhappy and your family and friends say you're not the same person clearly and loudly say that this is not a good situation for you to be in. When things change you so that you are not the person you really are, it's not the right thing for you.


I can't say it strongly enough, ending the counseling and the relationship completely is the right way for you to go. His tears are his way to keep you on the hook, get you to come back. It's bribery, it's blackmail. Look at it this way, in almost every relationship that ends, there is one who wants the relationship to be over and one that does not. The fact that one wants out means the relationship is not right and needs to end so that both can be free to find someone who is the right match -- someone who is happy and compatible with each of you as you are. Continuing when you're not happy doesn't do either of you any favors. It prolongs the pain and prolongs a relationship that will ultimately end. The sooner it's done the sooner you both will be able to move forward to find partners who are ideal for each of you. Tears and pain is a normal stage of an ending relationship. Prolonging the relationship prolongs the pain and tears, it's something that has to be gone through.


I have two book recommendations for you:

"Are You the One For Me?" by Barbara DeAngelis


"Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft

Do the right thing for yourself. You must look out for yourself, no one else is going to. This is your life, live it in a way that you can look back and smile at the life you've led. Every day spent under someone's thumb, doing someone else's bidding, living the way someone else dictates instead of how we want to live is a day gone that you can't get back.







~ cl-2nd_life

"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"

~ Author unknown








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-27-2006
Mon, 12-25-2006 - 1:29pm

Yes, I did read the informational posts that you suggested last time which made a lot of sense and helped me realize. He says he wants to genuinely change, but so much has happened that I just don’t know nor want to put in that much time. He has sent lots of flowers and songs over my vm claiming how much he loves me, but I do definitely feel as you mentioned that he makes a huge effort to keep me when he does not have me. Then when I go back to him it seems he ignores me and I think I have had enough.

That is exactly how I feel that I can never do anything quite right---even if I set the table he rearranges, he picks a small strand off my blouse, he immediately wants to pop zits when they appear on my face (which I can’t stand), he tells me that it does not look like I cleaned the house at all when I just cleaned it. He wants me to make dinner for him, then I wait for 20mins and then he complains that is cold because I am always waiting. He constantly pushes alcohol on me so I loosen and have more fun after midnight (which I really don’t like to drink).

Thank you for the book recommendations—I will definitely pick them up.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-27-2006
Tue, 12-26-2006 - 11:44am

I feel that I keep second guessing my decision. In the past week, he has sent flowers, cards, emails, songs, leaves vm’s of the dogs(which is the one that gets me the most), and tells me how much he loves me and that relationships are work and that we have not had ample time to practice what the therapist has suggested. He says he wants us to change and be better for each other, yet so much other stuff and I am scared to go back in the house, thoughts???

I told him that I won’t be a verbal whipping post everytime he doesn’t like a nonverbal cue from me. He tells me that he is sorry and that only happened over the last three weeks because it was his way of processing the hurt feelings (he is hurt that I went out on dates in October when we were broken up, and I don’t feel that is something that I need to be forgiven for that).

Things I know that are wrong: He went through my planner and is hurt by the number of places I went for dinner when broken up, goes through my purse and found a business card from someone, checks my phone constantly (though he said he would stop that), checks my email, wants to know where I am at all times. Things I know in the past that are very very wrong: tape recorder in my car, breaking into my cell phone vm and emails a year and a half ago, putting a PI on me, screaming at me/calling me names, saying the relationship is over when he never actually means it; all of which he is very sorry for and says it won’t happen again, but I think I need to keep holding my ground….???

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-27-2006
Wed, 12-27-2006 - 5:23pm

I am very vulnerable right now---he keeps sending emails, texts, and vm's with the dogs(my real teardreaker). He says that he knows what he did was wrong, yet feels justified because he likes to say well I had a feeling you were out on a date (when we were broken up) and I just wanted to know the truth. I don't think that is justification for breaking into someone's vm, going through their purse, going through their car, etc.; he has appologized for all this and said it is wrong, yet he still feels justified. He is begging me to go to couple's counseling with him because he believes we are/were great together.

These boards do help and give me something to look forward too everyday now since I don't have my dogs.

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-08-2004
Wed, 12-27-2006 - 7:56pm
It must be hard to break up even when you've been treated so badly. One thing that might help you get through this phase and stand your ground would be to find hobbies. Pottery, painting? Learning a new language? If you have vacation go to an island somewhere for a few days? Something like that.. something to keep your mind off the break up.
There is no question that breaking up is the right thing to do. Abusers start with controlling ,tracking, monitoring and then move on to verbal lashings and eventually hitting. Five years from now do you want to be one of those women who get slapped across the face when they disagree? Now he squishes your zits.. next when you'll have a baby he'll make you have surgery to get rid of cellulite.. etc. Do you want to be his little plastic doll forever? He really wont change. You know that. A decent respectable, respectful man DOES NOT bug you, track you, go through your cell phone, play the guilt trip because you saw other men when you were broken up. Really confused!!! They dont... (btw the extreme jealousy is another symptom of an abuser.. you know that right?)
And there ARE plenty of men out there who wont do these things.. men who wont make you feel like you're never good enough. They will make you feel happy and light and relaxed. Dont waste preciious years of your life on this low-life. This man is not a good man, and he wont be a good partner. You wont be the person to change him... dont try. Stay broken up and keep yourself distracted. Start new hobbies and keep away from the phone. Send the flowers away (how predictably tacky of him to do this.. I can almost conjure up an image of him in my mind.. and a despicable picture it is).. dont pick up the phone and keep telling yourself it's the right thing.
Talk to your best friend (if you have one) or any other close friend.. talk to your parents.. share your stories and ask them what they think. Any sane person who knows a healthy relationship will tell you that this one isnt a sane healthy one... So be strong. And keep us updated.