Arguing constantly...advice please
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| Tue, 12-19-2006 - 10:37am |
Thank you taking the time to read and respond. My fiancé and I have been together for over two years and I moved from Chicago to Portland because he is from there and I could transfer within my company. Since we moved a year ago, it was not easy for me learning the city on my own while my fiancé became a work-aholic (9am to 9pm Mon-Sun except most Sat night we go out) for his business---we began to build up a lot of walls with one another/arguing/fighting and I moved out at the end of September. We were bickering from April to August several times a week. I began socializing more with co-workers in Aug/Sept.
During the month of October, I immediately started dating a gentleman at the same company that I work at as he was a good friend hearing me vend about my fiancé, but I new I still had feelings for the x. After a week that I moved out, my fiancé wrote me a well-thought out long letter for all the things that he saw went wrong, we then sent several nice long emails back and forth followed by weekly coffee meetings and some dinners---it seemed that I saw more of him in the 6 weeks than I did living with him; I never stopped loving him, I just lost hope that we could forget the resentment/hurt feelings/things were going to change/go back to how they were in Chicago.
He tells me things constantly like I can accept that you are not everything on my ideal perfect list (I don't like partying until 4am three times a month(he is 39), I don't like being outside in the cold weather below ten degrees). It used to be that I was not petite either as I am five eight and 130 not five foot and 100 pounds, but he total accepts that now and says that I am the most beautiful person in the world.
I moved back in November and he is still working the long hard hours and the emails/text-messaging/phone call during the day has faded over the past week. I have asked (since May) for two nights a week (Saturday plus a weekday) for him to come home at 6pm and he keeps saying he wants to, but the business or he tells me fine he will quit everything, sell the house and live in an apartment. We have been in counseling and it seems to help. I love my fiancé more than anything, but we constantly keep fighting. For the past two weeks we have been fighting non-stop (I still kept my apartment while I moved back in) and he said on Wednesday to just go and find what you need so I packed up my car and went back to my apartment. Of course he called me an hour later (shocked that I left) and told me that I just don’t understand him and that he loves me and wants to work on us. Since we have been talking on the phone and we still get irritated with each other and he starts yelling at me.
I am sure this is a common-occurance with people, but it is like in my head I completely agree that this is not working and it is never going to end; but then when I see him, in the house we bought, dogs we bought together, my heart is just speaking so much louder to give it another try (but I have said this over 20 times in the past year). We are still in counseling. She can see that we love each other, and wants to commit on a hard 6 months together of work with her weekly and this was after I moved out again on wednesday to my place.
Any advice would be much appreciated and thanks for your time!

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I have no doubt that you are very clear on the fact that this guy is not good for you. I'm sure that most reasonable people would agree that any relationship requiring therapy before marriage that has this many problems is not worth salvaging. As I may have mentioned before, this is going to be very painful for you. You need to grit your teeth and bear it. It will be over at some point and you will be very proud of yourself.
I'm sure that he believes every word he says. I have no doubt his words are sincere, at the moment. I also think he will say anything to get you back at this point. That does not make him a good choice for you. If it were possible to have a healthy relationship with this person, you would have by now. He is toxic. If your best friend were in the same situation, would you advise her to stay with someone like him? I don't think you would.
I honestly don't think he is capable of being the kind of guy you should be with. He doesn't have the ability.
You know what you should do. Not one person has recommended that you work this out with him. There is a good reason for that.
May the force be with you. :)
C
Quick story that has nothing to do with your situation yet has everything to do with your situation. My ex-husband was an alcoholic. Bear in mind things weren't always bad, always boozy, always wrong. Like in any dysfunctional relationship (yours, for example) there were good times too. Over the years we were together things would go along until I would reach a point of having had enough, being ready to leave. This played out several times during out marriage, however, at the time I didn't see them as a pattern or as predictable. Each time I'd be ready to walk he'd be ready to do anything to resolve our problems. Individual counseling, couples counseling, therapy, inpatient alcohol rehab, you name it. Of course, when he offered to do whatever it took to save our relationship, I felt I needed to stay; after all, how do you walk away from someone who's trying, right? So, we'd do whatever, and it would make a difference, not a big difference, but things would be a little better, for a while anyway. But soon enough, things went right back to the way they'd been; and as you know, once you're back, fully engaged in the relationship, it's harder to walk away. What I finally realized is that he never wanted to stop drinking, he was perfectly happy with his drinking. What he wanted was for me to stay. His goal in treatment, therapy, rehab, etc. was keeping me in the relationship not stopping his behavior. He'd do the work, but once it was done and our relationship was back on more solid ground, it was back to the relationship as it had been before. Again, because his goal wasn't to stop, it was to keep me, once that goal had been met he could go back to life as usual. Your boyfriend has no desire to change. He has desire to keep you. He woos the heck out of you but once you're back, he's critical and demanding as always and his work habits haven't changed.
Please go back and read your posts. Your boyfriend is incredibly controlling. He has violated your privacy on many, many occasions and you would be very naive to think this will ever change. He has proven himself to be controlling and to think nothing of looking through your things, spying on you and more. This is more than a red flag, Confused, this alone is reason to run, not walk away. This is an enormous issue. Here again, he's sorry, he "knows it's wrong" yet it has continued - and it will continue. Not only will it continue, it will get worse. Confused, you're staring a spider's web right in the face. You have the choice to stay out of it or step in and be trapped in it. Sweet talk, lovely words, songs, flowers, etc. do not change what's behind that dazzle. You're a smart woman, I know you know this. I know you already rationally know everything you're being told. Confused, this is who he is. He will treat every woman he's with exactly as he treats you. A year of "nice guy" (this is how he establishes a relationship - face it, if he'd acted like this from day one, you'd never have continued), then he emerges into who he is. This is nothing new, it's how it is. You say you want change, but continue to focus on the heart-pulling stunts he employs. Put all that smoke and mirrors aside. What has he done to show you he's changing?
You're confused and swayed by the "sweetness". Think with your head, not your emotion. Put his sweet tactics aside and look beyond them, into what this is really about. You're confused because you continue to try to see his sweet talk as change, but it's not. It's only what it is - flowers and words.
Confused, I'm going to post some links for you to look at. These are from the Domestic Abuse board. Understand that many of what is referred to is regarding physical and verbal abuse, so they certainly won't all fit, no abusive relationship will fit them all.
How to Tell if He's Changing (or Not)This post is regarding change in physically and verbally abusive relationships, but it still applies to your situation. I think you can adapt what's said and apply it to your situation.
Checklists that you need to take a look at:
Extensive Domestic Violence Checklist~*~Traits of Abusive Personalities~*~Please take a look at these links and tell me what you think.
~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Thank you for sharing your story of your ex-hubby and more site recommendations---they do help. You are right that he showers me with attention when I am not with him, but the next day that I move back in, he starts to slowly ignore me unless I am out with friends then he calls a few times during the hour. He has said for almost a year now that he would fix the bathroom and fireplace and he has not. He definately resembles the not changing first point "He says “I can’t change unless you do.”"--he tells me that we both have to change and that he is willing to go to counseling with me because he wants us to communicate better. He says that I am the cause of most of the problems and blames it all on me and my depression about the miscarriage/moving here/losing a lot of money/etc. He always acts superior to me and everyone else---he says all the time, that no one can keep up with him and that he will always do it better.
Just a few things that align with my relationship to the site:
Threatens to leave me all the time
Makes me afraid by looks, actions or gestures.
Limits my freedom, tells me what to do, where to go, and when to come back.
Makes all the decisions
Blames me when I am mistreated. Says, "I provoked it!"
Insults my most valued beliefs and upbringing/background.
Monitors my phone calls, or mail, or the odometer mileage
Calls me a bitch or other sexual demeaning names
He pressures me for sex
Becomes upset if dinner, housework, or laundry was not done exactly the way he thinks it should be.
Twist my words around and will not let me explain the correct thing that I was I saying.
Shows disrespect by interrupting and changing the topic.
Calls me names, swears or makes humiliating gestures.
He digs in my purse, and in my private things.
He really hasn't done anything to show me that he is changing other than schedule one therapy session for himself(which he has done before).
My family and friends don't understand what I did see in my X at all. I can't lie though, I do miss him a ton though long-term I really can't see myself with him at all. Short-term, present, I want nothing more than to be with him, but I pretty much know that it will be good for a couple weeks and then bad again. He is going to therapy for himself now because he says that he wants to get better, yet he wants me to go with him to couples counseling so we can work together---it is hard, because there is a part of me that thinks that he can change; yet I don't know for how for. We have definately had our good times and definately bad ones too; I guess right now I am not willing to trust that he can/will entirely change as he is 35 and pretty set in his ways.
Thanks for your help
Edited 12/28/2006 8:21 pm ET by confused7772006
"Regular" counseling is not effective or helpful as it does not address the problem, neither is "anger management", as it is does not address the problem either. The problem is domestic abuse and that is what must be addressed in order for hope of change to occur.
This means there is a 99% chance that your boyfriend will not change; and without appropriate counseling (abuse counseling rather than general therapy/counseling) there is no chance for change. Your boyfriend does not believe that he is abusive or that there is anything wrong in the way he thinks. Telling him would not be helpful, as I'm sure you can imagine. Unless he actively seeks domestic abuse counseling he is not working on the problem, he's spinning his wheels in therapy, getting nothing but words and cues to use against you. His therapy won't help him, but it will hurt you. Further, couples counseling is not only ineffective, it's harmful and no domestic abuse counselor would advise or agree to couples counseling - none. In case I haven't already linked you to an article on why couples counseling is harmful:
"Regular" vs. DV Counseling
The lists I linked to you that you related to both came from the Domestic Abuse board, to help those in domestic abuse situations identify them as such. One "yes" answer shows your relationship as having abusive tendencies, seven indicates serious abuse problems. You identified over ten. Doesn't that tell you how serious this situation is? Confused, not only are you in an abusive situation, you're in a seriously abusive situation. I urge you to re-read the list items you identified with in your last response as if they were written by someone else. What would you think if this were a friend's situation? Would you think it was an okay place for her to be? Would you suggest she stick around and see what happens?
You have some serious indicators on your own side. Your family does not like him, your friends do not like him. They have seen you change into a completely different person. These are serious indicators of a situation that is not safe or right for you to be in. Confused, your boyfriend is not changing and he's not going to change. He's giving you lip service, pulling out what he knows will get to you and using it as bait. You've said yourself you cannot see this as a long term relationship. Yes, I understand that you miss him when you're gone, but you also know it's a game, the niceness fades soon and it's back to the controlling abuser. That's the real face of this guy, the nice guy is how he sucks you in; it's not who he really is. Why would you waste another second in this situation when you know it's unhealthy, you know it has damaged you and continues to damage you and you know it won't be long term anyway. What could possibly be the reason for staying? It's certainly not entertainment because you had no problem getting dates when you broke up before. If it's your dogs, then rent a house and take them, you're entitled. He likely only keeps them as bait you anyway.
Confused, his tears are false, his sweetness is false. It's a game, a tactic, geared to keep you hooked in. The longer you're hooked, the longer you're dabbling in this relationship, the more damage is done to you, and the more damage done, the more therapy you need before you can be a healthy person capable of healthy relationships again. Why would you choose to stay and damage yourself?
Take a look at the Domestic Abuse Board's Homepage . Towards the bottom of the page are links to information on domestic abuse, read them - even those that don't seem to pertain to your situation, you'd be surprised how many places you'll find your boyfriend's behavior fitting into and you'll learn a lot about the dynamics of both verbal and emotional abuse, control and abuse in general.
Your situation is serious. I hope you're beginning to see that.~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
I have been reading the book, "Why does he do that" and also all the DV sites. I know in my head it is what I need to do. He is sweet-talking me like crazy right now, but I do sort-of questions he motives right now as he is being faced with possible criminal charges from the restraining order that I put on him in August, but I removed and now the city is going after him for this.
I remember clearly after moving to Portland, things got ugly very quickly and he was really not there much for me as I had an unexpected pregnancy that led to a miscarrage coupled to my job not being every that I expected it to be. Then I finally had another buyer for my condo in Chicago in December(the offer was much lower than one I recieved in August that my fiance told me not to accept because it was not high enough in Aug) with a much lower offer than Aug, but wanted to take it as I was not liking to have to pay for 1.5 mortgages. It was not an easy transition at all as my fiance began to travel much more too and I was feeling lousy about the miscarrage. He told me not to tell anyone about the miscarrage which I didn't until July; this basically made me completely issolated from my friends/family as everyone would tell me that I sounded so sad and no one understood why as it looked like I had everything. We started going to couples counseling six months ago on and off (he was more of the push). We began fighting non-stop again in August until I decieded to move out. My fiance was shocked and that last week in August was very nasty---I found a tape recorded in my car, threats of a PI on me from him, him screaming at me/then begging me to stay and now he realizes how much he loved me---I still was strong and left a week earlier than planned as he punched the wall one morning/kicked the doors outside and trying to grab me as I ran into my car.
There has been a lot of going and back and forth a few times between wooing me with letters/flowers/songs/etc.; but I still have my apartment today. He does unfortunately still have my heart and it is soooo hard to get over him. I put a restraining order on him that day in August when I left because I was scared as I remember the scarey phone conversation we had in January 2005 (first time he broke into my vm) coupled to finding a tape recorder, PI---him going through emails, purse, etc. I dropped the restraining order, however, the city still believes that it is a criminal charge and now he has to go to court in february (he has a misdomeaner from 20 years ago coupled to a horrible driving record). He told me that he admits to what he did was wrong and that he loves me and wants to change. He admits that he did scare me, but does not feel it is a criminal charge and wants me to appear in court and say that? He appologized for everything that he did wrong and now says that he wants to change for him and hopes that I will go back to him. He keeps saying to me/begging, Don't let the attorneys or my family tear us apart---that he loves me and will make whatever changes I need.
Edited 1/4/2007 5:17 pm ET by confused7772006
So where are you at now? Are you still talking to him?
If this is true, then if you do not put yourself in the position to hear him, you will not be confused. So, STOP LISTENING. Stop allowing contact. Change your email, your IM, your cell and land line numbers -- DON'T ALLOW CONTACT.
He's pressuring you to beg off his criminal charges. Confused, he provoked those charges, he got them because he deserved them, he went against what he knew the law said. Bailing him out lets him get away without consequences, and Confused, he already feels plenty entitled, he doesn't need any added "proof" that he is indeed entitled and above the law. Letting him get away with it will be sending him the message, "Even if I say no contact, I don't mean it and I'll bail you out if you get in trouble." Letting him get away with it tells him it's okay to act like this, and he'll continue -- not just with you, but your choices will affect how he treats women he's involved with after you. It will make it a million times more difficult to get him away from you and it will make the police a million times less likely to treat any restraining order or call for help from you seriously.
What site are your reading, the DA board or the DA Homepage? Are you posting on the DA board for their thoughts, support and perspective? Do you need help finding an abuse counselor?
What I hear from you right now is you being torn in two, touching on what you know but focusing on what he's saying, his pressure. You need to get hold of yourself, get control of your out of control emotion and look at the reality. You need to stop running with your emotion and put your head - your reality - in control. Talk to me.~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Isolating you from friends and family is another typical, classic move by abusers, controllers especially. They slowly move you away from everyone until you are completely controlled by them and have no one else to reach out to. This is the world you're moving towards.
~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Right now, I have not talked to him since Tuesday (though he has left several vm’s, text msg’s---telling me how much he loves me and he will do anything to change and make me happy because he loves me so much, he has been in therapy the past month on an on-going weekly basis). I told him that we have so much resentment towards one and other and I don’t see how we could make it through. Also, that I don’t feel that he was justified to put a PI on me, tape-recorder in my car, break into vm and emails. I told him that now I called a family attorney (as I was scared as my X told me that it was going to be heated me verses him, and then my attorney assured me that it was the city going after him, not me and I don’t have any worries) and the attorney indicated that I should not be speaking with him right now either with this court case. My X now says that he wishes that we don’t listen to either attorney or my family.
On Tuesday, I asked him about his other charge 20 years ago (he tells me that it is her word against his that involves touching/drinking). He immediately married his college sweetheart who stood by him through all this, then married and they divorced three years later; which they still talk a few times a year. He through himself into work and became very successful. He does have a horrible driving record and pays an enormous amount to get insurance (only one insurance company would give him insurance of the 10 or so he called).
I posted on the Domestic Abuse: New beginning the same story. You are right, I am letting his vm’s get to me as he has been talking so sweet to me, but I am constantly pulling out the posts (print-outs), reading all the dislikes about him, and trying to move forward. It seemed that part of what I miss when I am alone is more this problem and I can’t seem to just enjoy being peaceful inside.
You are correct—I know that what he says fades as soon as I go back and seen it happen. I know he is abusive and that his violations of my privacy, his screaming threats, his punching doors, walls, whatever are violent acts made by a violent man. I know these things, yet when I hear him, I question me and feel guilty. My sane, rational side knows this is wrong and unhealthy. My sane rational side knows his words are only words, but my emotional side feels doubt, though I am trying hard to get past it and doing my best not pick up my phone from him (even though he now calls in restriction, which my folks have a privacy line so I just call them back now after they leave a vm as they know what is going on)...this advise helps me so much from these boards:)
In your posts I hear your turmoil, what I don't hear is a plan. If you continue to ride this way, you'll continue to be manipulated, threatened, sweet talked then controlled, manipulated and threatened again. That's the cycle you're in.
~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
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