Arguing constantly...advice please
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| Tue, 12-19-2006 - 10:37am |
Thank you taking the time to read and respond. My fiancé and I have been together for over two years and I moved from Chicago to Portland because he is from there and I could transfer within my company. Since we moved a year ago, it was not easy for me learning the city on my own while my fiancé became a work-aholic (9am to 9pm Mon-Sun except most Sat night we go out) for his business---we began to build up a lot of walls with one another/arguing/fighting and I moved out at the end of September. We were bickering from April to August several times a week. I began socializing more with co-workers in Aug/Sept.
During the month of October, I immediately started dating a gentleman at the same company that I work at as he was a good friend hearing me vend about my fiancé, but I new I still had feelings for the x. After a week that I moved out, my fiancé wrote me a well-thought out long letter for all the things that he saw went wrong, we then sent several nice long emails back and forth followed by weekly coffee meetings and some dinners---it seemed that I saw more of him in the 6 weeks than I did living with him; I never stopped loving him, I just lost hope that we could forget the resentment/hurt feelings/things were going to change/go back to how they were in Chicago.
He tells me things constantly like I can accept that you are not everything on my ideal perfect list (I don't like partying until 4am three times a month(he is 39), I don't like being outside in the cold weather below ten degrees). It used to be that I was not petite either as I am five eight and 130 not five foot and 100 pounds, but he total accepts that now and says that I am the most beautiful person in the world.
I moved back in November and he is still working the long hard hours and the emails/text-messaging/phone call during the day has faded over the past week. I have asked (since May) for two nights a week (Saturday plus a weekday) for him to come home at 6pm and he keeps saying he wants to, but the business or he tells me fine he will quit everything, sell the house and live in an apartment. We have been in counseling and it seems to help. I love my fiancé more than anything, but we constantly keep fighting. For the past two weeks we have been fighting non-stop (I still kept my apartment while I moved back in) and he said on Wednesday to just go and find what you need so I packed up my car and went back to my apartment. Of course he called me an hour later (shocked that I left) and told me that I just don’t understand him and that he loves me and wants to work on us. Since we have been talking on the phone and we still get irritated with each other and he starts yelling at me.
I am sure this is a common-occurance with people, but it is like in my head I completely agree that this is not working and it is never going to end; but then when I see him, in the house we bought, dogs we bought together, my heart is just speaking so much louder to give it another try (but I have said this over 20 times in the past year). We are still in counseling. She can see that we love each other, and wants to commit on a hard 6 months together of work with her weekly and this was after I moved out again on wednesday to my place.
Any advice would be much appreciated and thanks for your time!

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Thanks for all your help. I am getting through this slowly. I didn’t realize there were two different sites at first and do agree with you that I am still in the middle of it. I have a written outline list and this morning I started a more detailed one as you suggested. I am trying to go out with friends, but I will admit that I do get sad after a couple hours and start to think about him, although I read your posts again last night and did not contact him. I have put in some calls to getting a counselor (I don’t think that I want to go to the one that we have been going to together or the other 5that we went too and my X did not like). I have told my family and some friends about the situation which has helped. I am in the middle of reading “Why does he do that”
I am also realizing that maybe the reason I am holding onto this for so long (coupled to being in a different state and isolation from family/friends and missing having someone to worry about/feed/household duties/dogs), is that growing up I thought that if I pushed myself through school, got a great job, financially secure/debt free that I would meet the one and only man of my dreams and that would be it. My X is my first sexual partner; which was another early control tactic I can see looking back---him throwing porn in my face, making me go to strip clubs, sex worlds to become more of a sexual criter for him prior to a little plastic surgery. I had several bf’s before him, but never wanted to get too serious as school/work was always my number one and wanted to be financially secure/debt free before getting heavily involved. I can see that I have tried to live this life that I dreamed of when I was a a kid, but have to realize that it is ok to mess up and start over.
Thanks for your help and posts
I want you to know that I do know how hard and confusing this is. Getting out rarely happens overnight. It's a process and yes, I know I'm pushing hard. I want you out NOW: ) The good news is you're on your way. You're making realizations, you're making changes, you're doing things to help yourself.
I apologize for you having to find the abuse boards on your own, I thought I'd provided the link to the DA board in an earlier post to you, I don't know how I missed it.
Continuing to post about your feelings and your situation is important, it gives you a place to get it out (and therefore think about it a little more clearly) and it gives you feedback, which helps you stay clear on what's going on. Reading the other abuse posts and continuing to read the information on the Domestic Abuse Board's Homepage is important because it gives you new information and realization and it reinforces what you know; which is really important.
Your recognition of what brought you and keeps you in this relationship, and your ability to recognize tactics he used (and is using) as well is huge. You're more than on the right track, you're doing great!
I was cleaning out my pc's Word document PSFC folder this morning and came across a couple of abuse documents that I thought might be good to share with you. Hope they help to reinforce what you already know.~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Thank you for the attachments. I understand the first attachment (love,hope, and fear---constant cycle and makes perfect sense to me) and am a little confused by the second one. For the violence wheel he does place verbal attacks, isolation, and minimizing the blame.
As for me, these boards have helped and I did talk to a therapist yesterday---it was more the initial stages.
As for my X, he has respected not calling nearly as much; however, definately texting. I finally spoke to him yesterday, and to my surprise he got the book as I told him to read "Why does he do that" and appologied and said that he can accept that he was controlling me though those were never his intensions and he wants to stop. He also said he realizes that he needs to stop in hopes for me or anyone else he may see. He has also been going to therapy on weekly basis and appologized for a lot of things he did wrong and states that he wants to change. He also told me that he completely understands why (this was the first time) that I did get the restraining order because I was scared of the scarey phone call a year ago when he broke into my vm coupled to threats of a PI, taperecorder etc. He said he just wanted the truth (we were broken up) and realize that he went about it the wrong way.
I told him that is great that he is doing the things for himself. As far as any possibility of us, I told him that time will have to tell for the two of us. His court case is at the end of january and I told him that I would definately not make any promises to him right now as I need to work on myself and see how is after he doesn't have this hanging out there. He understood/agreed. I don't want him to have criminal charges on his record, I just wanted him to stay away from me---I am confused with the charges as I dropped the restraining order? on how the city is going after him now.
I have to tell you, asking him to read the book is a mistake, and will do you no good. I can also promise you at some point he will use it against you. He may be saying he knows he's abusive, etc., but if you read the book, you know abuse is about their belief system, what they believe about women. You're not going to convince him that he's wrong or abusive, you will, however, give him reason for anger and blame later -- ammo to use against you.
He wants to change? Great. So has he found himself an abuse offender program to enter? Seeing is basic individual therapist will do no good, it's a great way for him to spin his wheels, make it look like he's doing something, but he's doing nothing.
You're talking again like you're considering staying in the relationship. I'm confused. Previously you said you knew this is not a long term relationship. Where are you going? What are you thinking?
~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Thank you for your emails--I am sure you are prabably frustrated with me. I am completely confused right now in all this. I did good by not contacting him at all last week, but then I speak to him yesterday and hear how much he wants to change; I know I need to stick to the no contact rule. I realize that I am confused and I am going to go home to Chicago this weekend for five days and talk to friends and family; which
In talking to him yesterday and reading the apologetic emails/texts/ and seeing that he wants to change by therapy and reading books. He bought four books a few weeks back: Why does he do that, Anger Management, & Never Be Lied to Again. His previous relationship, his gf cheated on him with his good friend and the reason that he wanted to have my vm, emails---after he broke in the wrong way to show that I could be trusted (I didn’t think that he would read every single email from back to 1998 and be upset by what he read)---I realized this was wrong and told him no more in September, which he now accepts.
He has now moved to tears over the phone and extremely apologetic saying that he will change. He leaves me texts such as “I want to show you that I can and will be the loving supportive man you deserve-please give us one more chance, I now stand right where I proposed to you and am so sad, I love and respect you-please forgive for anytime in which I may have let you down or you feel less loved, I know we can heal our heartache and love each other more than ever, because we learned the value of respecting each other over being right—I personally value our love more now than ever because of our lessons and I do not want to loose such a deep love—please call and I will show you”---??? He said that he accepted why I got a restraining order, and constantly keeps saying, but I don’t think it is criminal charges. I told him that until February I won't even consider anytype of relationship with him because his mannerism since he got the summons the past 5 weeks have been perfect and I fear that after the court that he will go right back to it even though he says that he won't.
I don’t like the fact that he may have criminal charges on his record for all of this. These are the facts in my mind: Yes, he scared me/terrifed me when he broke into my vm a year and a half ago. Yes, he scared me with a taperecorder in my car and threats of a PI. He was banging my car door window, pulling my door handle, begging me not to leave. Yes he has broken a couple things in the house when we are in heated arguments the past year. ----ok so typing this is good and I get angry.
I know in my head that this not a good relationship, yet when I drive around I miss him. I don’t mind being alone in my place, I guess it’s that I have grown used to this bad drama in my life. I went on a couple dates in the past few weeks, and all I can think about is him during most of it. I know if I had a daughter, I would not want her in the same situation as me, then why I am so confused?
Yes, you're right, you need to stick by the "no contact" rule. You've seen over and over again how not sticking to it only confuses you more, so in order to keep yourself from being confused, stick to it. Make it easier on yourself by deleting his numbers from any speed dial you have, delete his email address and block him from your phones, email, etc. Sound familiar?
"His previous relationship, his gf cheated on him with his good friend and the reason that he wanted to have my vm, emails---after he broke in the wrong way to show that I could be trusted" Do you see that he's not taking responsibility for his actions? It's not his fault, it's that his ex cheated on him and now he's insecure. Insecure my @ss, he's controlling. This is his fault, any "reason" besides "I screwed up, it was wrong" is an excuse. And excuses show he's not taking responsibility -- classic trait of an abuser.
Tears on the phone. Confused, this is the exact same thing he always does. He's always soooo sorry, things will be different, he wants to try, be given another chance. He's always coming up with something to prove how good things can be, and yet, repeatedly, things are not different. Stay clear and recognize the cycle, the pattern.
He wants another chance to prove himself? Great, give it to him. This is how it goes: He seeks appropriate treatment (abuse/violence therapy with a counselor accredited in the same) to resolve his issues. After one year you can check back in with him and see how he's doing, if he's successfully completed the program, etc. Yep, I said one year. That's enough time to get through the program, be able to focus on it without a relationship getting in the way of that focus, and it gives him enough time outside the program to see if he continues to practice this "new him". Oh yeah, and he gives his counselor approval to speak with you about his therapy. Sound extreme? I don't think so. You've given him how much of your life and seen the same over and over. He wants to prove how much he can change, then let him. But let him do it knowing you won't be in the picture for a year. That'll also show you if he's doing it for you or for him. If he's doing it for you, it's bull and it won't last. If he's doing it because he really wants to change, then maybe he'll be one of that 1%. But chances are this is the same song and dance you've heard from him all along. He's found a new way to soften you up, instead of buying flowers and songs, he's buying books. Purchases are just like words. Let's see his actions. Apologies and purchases are not enough, you've heard it before. Action is the only thing that matters now, and he'll need quite a bit of action without your interaction. Again, if he's not willing to do it, he's not sincere, he may wail, "what if I lose you?" Well, that's the chance he takes. The good news is he'll be a changed man for the rest of his life with or without you. Betting nothing's gonna change though.
You talked about him amping up his counseling sessions, with his "regular" individual therapist or with a domestic abuse counselor?
I'm glad you're going back to see your friends and family; in all honesty I hope you find a way to stay and not go back at all.
I'm glad that the mere act of writing out your concerns about criminal charges reminds you that he's to blame for them. Feeling sorry for him, getting him off the hook is giving him the message that what he did is okay, it assures it will happen again. It feeds him with "he was right and the charge wasn't warranted or his fault". It's time to let him face the consequences of what he's done. Like Blueliner told you on the DA board, his previous charge is not innocent like he tries to make it out to be. He'll talk about this charge the same way to his next victim. In reading what you wrote in that paragraph about what he's done, and thinking about it in terms of abusers escalating, can you see that he is and will become more dangerous?
Just because you miss him doesn't mean the relationship is right. Everybody goes through missing their ex. In case I haven't posted it for you before, he's an article that very clearly explains why contact is not at all helpful:
LETTING GO OF HARMFUL RELATIONSHIPS
One more question:
You said you'd contacted a counselor, is this an abuse/DA counselor? If not, it really needs to be. You may hate to think about you being in an abusive relationship, but seeing a counselor who is not trained in the field will not help you, it'll only make you more confused. In order to be helped you need to be addressing the actual problem, you wouldn't go to a foot doctor for a heart problem, you need the right doc who's trained in the right field. This is no different, and could be just as damaging as having a foot doctor treat your heart problem.~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
I did call the DV hotline and spoke with someone for a good hour in my area. I explained the situation and she confirmed that it was abuse and discussed that all his actions are DV and that they could get worse. She was very helpful and made me laugh. She pretty much said much of what you had outlined in your posts---nice to hear it being reinforced and restated from pretty much everyone I talk to except the X and his therapist. She said that he was not justified at all for him breaking into my vm when we were broken up, the counselor said well he thinks he is justified to do that then he can tell the judge that. She said that his intentions were to scare and threat me---what else and why else would he do that.
She said if he was serious about getting help, it takes six months to one year to get help. I do accept that I am/was in an abusive relationship. I am no longer myself anymore. I see how I was isolated from friends and family.
I'm sorry all of this has happened to you (obviously), but so glad that you see it for what it is, recognize what it's done to you. You're on the threshold, kiddo!
~ cl-2nd_life
"Experience is what you get
When you don't get what you want"
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
hey confused,
well, i can't offer any further advice than what you've gotten, but i wanted to comment on the charges against your ex. you wondered how he was still being charged if you dropped the restraining order (not sure if you meant you also dropped the charges too?). anyway, where i live, they have this law, and i think it's something new they've just started, where the city or county presses charges against the abuser. for the life of me, i can't remember what this law or procedure is called. i've been trying to rack my brain since yesterday trying to remember for you. but since so many abused people, women especially, drop charges, either out of fear or whatever the reason, our area has decided to take the matter in their own hands. if a woman is beaten by her boyfriend and the matter is reported, pictures taken, etc, and she later drops the charges, the city or county will still press them on her behalf, whether she likes it or not. and i think it's great!
i don't know many details on how it works, and it could be different where you live anyway, but i just found out about the law a month ago when i learned of a family member in your same situation - except unfortunately she has no intentions of leaving his sorry @ss anytime soon.
anyway, just thought i would pass that on. i'm pulling for ya, and i'm thrilled that you're taking steps to get yourself out of this situation. huge ((((HUGS)))) and i have faith in you that you are strong enough to not fall for your ex's tears and empty words. (one question - how is he still calling you? can't you block his number? or just change yours completely?)
best of luck to you,
anna
Yes, the hotline referred me to a counselor and she has been helpful---I am going through the missing him/sadden that we won't be together lifelong, but realizing how unhealthy the relationship is with these message boards, books and talking to the counselor.
He told me that he completely understand why I would want to get a restraining as I must have been scared and wanted the peace of mind to sleep at night. He then got a summons from the city in mid-December and has been nothing, but sweet to me when I talk to him (I haven’t really talked to him much since New Years as I am trying not too, but gosh it is hard---I am understanding why love is blind---I am getting out and trying not to think about him, but even on other dates, I think about him?!?!---but I am doing my best to stay strong as I know it is unhealthy). He keeps sending me apologetic letters:
In a card he sent me on Saturday: “I want for us to love, laugh, live and be happy together. I pray for our heeling and new communication. You are the one for me, and we will get through all of our pitfalls together, because we love each other so much.”
He sent me a hallmark card this morning: “I am thinking of you, us, and our being happy together as the most important thing in our lives. This message is delivered to you with only passion and love… I love you more than anything. Please understand that I feel like you are standing away from me, when I want or need you to stand with me more than ever. I believe in you and I want you to believe in us….I hope that you please call me when YOU choose, and not just acting on someone’s guarded advice.”
He is reading the book recommended by his therapist called How Can I forgive you because he feels that he needs to forgive me for going on dates in Sept/Oct when we were broken up. We have broken up three times and everytime, I am not one to sit around and went out on dates; he asked about it and I said that I wasn’t so even though we were broken up he feels justified that he needs to forgive me for this. At least that was the situation in November.
I am also shocked by hearing him use the crocodile tears as I told him, he said it is because he finally realized how much he loves me and can’t bear the thought of us not being together. On New Years he actually whipped out the engagement ring and told me to please take and where it(I wouldn’t of course). He also said that he would like to go to church, enroll in anger management classes, and he has bough a lot of books that I told him I was reading.
Right now, I am continuing with a DV counselor, reading books, and going home this weekend to Chicago to visit with friends and family. I am really trying hard to get him out of mind. I know intellectually what he did to me was wrong. I don’t even really mind living alone as I used to for ten years prior to meeting him. It is like in this strange way that I cannot explain I miss the phone calls and knowing that someone in this state cares for me. I probably should think about moving back to Chicago as I don’t really have that good of a reason to stay here other than my job; which I am sure I could find something else.
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