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| Thu, 12-01-2005 - 11:07pm |
Well gals, I'm back again. Maybe I'm in the wrong place and should go over to the "codependents & love addicts" board...not sure...!
For anyone wondering - yes, already in therapy almost weekly.
Life's not so tumultuous for the time being (last several days lol!) and other important life and family issues are getting resolved. BUT, I am worried still about the one topic I keep coming back to haunt all of you with - my relationship.
Of course everyone says "run" "flee" "leave" or as most of you are probably wanting to say "just stop whining and leave the guy" - easier said than done. Especially when there are SO many things I sincerely love about this person (however I don't seem them on a regular basis now that I think of it). However, I think that the issues both of us have combined make for a very intimidating mountain to climb...not really that I don't want to face it but I don't know if he is willing to do the work required.
You see, I think both of us have so much work to do on ourselves, however we do love each other. Being so far into this relationship and so emotionally invested is so difficult because I'm seeing things more for what they are now.
I know for myself that I am very demanding. Due to family history I struggle immensely with relationships and somehow end up in very destructive ones; this time with an emotionally unavailable person. Sometimes he is not like that however most of the time he is and the frustrating part for me is that because of my issues, sometimes I don't know if I'm right or just overreacting!
When we first met he was very engaging and showered me with attention but it was like after he got me, reality was just too boring. Most times he has excuses...and I was really trying to consider this whole "accept him as he is" thing and he (lately) had been putting forth more effort for me and it really meant a lot, but it's not consistent. Most times I feel like he is so distant, he usually has a spaced out look...when we are together we are usually watching movies or tv, or have our children playing together. The other evening he came over with his son. Wait let me back up a bit...
So the other night after yet another fight, and he wanted to break it off but then said despite the drama, he still really loves me (we never really talked about it though he mentioned talking but when I asked, he said there wasn't much to talk about and that we "just love each other" and both of us need to "keep trying harder" (yes I agree to that 100%). So I was like ok whatever, I guess we'll just never discuss the issues brought up in anger that may hold a lot of truth.
I felt like I was wrong in the argument though I apologized, got over it, he was still angry, wanted time, space etc. I said I apologized & stopped acting childish so could he do that also? And let's just have a good night...no, he couldn't do it. (Although mind you, my reaction I tried very hard to keep to myself was to something that was a trigger from the trust issue, and my gut reaction was complete anger and annoyance though I did that initially, I tried to stuff it and leave the room to just get over it and he came in and kept asking what was wrong, I didn't even want to bring it up but just wanted to let myself get over it because I knew I was overreacting). Anyway, after parting ways he said he would call the next day after a certain activity he does that ends at noon (and then put off calling until 6 at night) I was pretty annoyed and acted so and he said, well he was reconsidering but he thinks he might still want to end it (cuz I was annoyed that he put me off all day). Anyway, after going back and forth and finally I end up putting all my pride aside and crying and saying that I love him very much (it seems his pride never bends for some reason) and still stubbornly wants to put me off (it's almost like a control thing), he wants to think, then calls the next day without revealing much emotion and says that he's tired of the arguing (which I agree on though I think some of that is due to his actions also) but that he still loves me very much (can you SAY it with any LESS emotion?) and that's his "dilemma". Meanwhile he said he kept "slipping" back into being with me before and I told him not to "slip" this time but be with me wholeheartedly either because he wants to or don't cuz I need someone fully present.
Long story, well not short but shorter anyway, we're back together without much discussion of resolution over underlying issues (one was his emotional unavailability which I said could have had a lot to do with the breakdown of his previous marriage - oooh he didn't like that, he blamed HER for most of it & during the argument he admitted that maybe he needs to talk to someone - you know, the old textbook emotional issues stemming from past issues with parental figures, blah blah blah ).
So next day, he surprises me by bringing me a Christmas tree & a stand. I literally have tears in my eyes for a while just because he thought of me unexpectedly. (yes I'm still broke, oh and btw I got into an accident on Thanksgiving - yes I'm fine and so was the other person)
So the day after that he comes over with his son, I run out to the grocery store, get back and try to make a really nice meal. When I ask him to do a couple of things to help me (wash tomatoes, grate cheese, slice bread - to which he commented "what is it like carving a turkey? you can't do it yourself? but when I got upset at that he said he was "just joking"), he seems completely unresponsive, almost annoyed that I'm asking him to get up from the couch after he's been working so hard pushing papers behind a desk (but somehow still finds enough time to surf the net quite a bit) however because I'm a SAHM of 2 and don't have a job anything that maybe I do or need help with I should be able to handle since "that's my job" right? (made that comment when we were arguing). Oh and that evening also said "jokingly" that he thought getting the tree would at least "buy him a couple of days"...?????!!!!!
Anyway, we've seen each other with our children the last couple of nights, tonight he didn't have his kids and I offered to make his favorite dessert (since I was to tired too yesterday and we also decorated the Christmas tree) if he wanted to come over later, however he said he needs to clean his house (but I am quite sure he is out shopping right now spending the money he just got from RETURNING the bed he bought for my daughter after he got one from next to the dumpster, however the box spring was in plastic so it MUST be ok & after that I'm sure he'll be thoroughly enmeshed in surfing ebay for the cheapest XBOX 360 he can find to buy now...although he doesn't really KNOW I know how much he's been looking this thing up)
My dilemma ladies - I know I have problems, I am trying to deal with them. I love this man and over and over with sincerity in his eyes and occasional action he tries to show me his love for me - one day he came over and worked really hard to help me clean up my house. Occasionally he'll offer to make dinner (usually doesn't, come to think of it, he never has), or he'll make a dessert like brownies or something just to be nice, or he'll help me with my kids when they're misbehaving and when he feels up to it he'll play with them. Even the other day when I was feeling overwhelmed, he took my son to the grocery store with him just to give me a break for a little while. He offers sometimes when he's over for me to go take a bath (I never do, but maybe I should?).
For the most part we usually don't "talk" about anything meaningful and I don't know at this point if it's him, or me, or both, and if so what do I do (besides therapy) more along action-wise, what does he do and I know everyone says "love's not enough" however we both really do love each other, I think we are both willing to try for the sake of our relationship and have both tried (though I don't know if he could be doing more or if I'm just such a pain that he might do more if I leave him alone...??) but we want to save this relationship and I know neither of us wants to see it go under but we need help and concrete ways to save this relationship but without him in therapy with me, it's impossible for anyone to see the entire situation.
I really do think he's very emotionally unavailable, not completely but he doesn't know how to be emotionally intimate with another human being very well or very often anyway. I've seen effort from him but I don't know what to do since this situation is so compounded by the problems we both have. Both of us really have family background issues and this is like exploring foreign territory for both of us - he thinks it's unhealthy because no matter what, if an important issue comes up, because of his desire to squelch anything serious or emotional, it usually ends up being strained at best (if not a full blown argument) and he perceives that as "negative conflict"; I however see his rusted shut doors of communication opening somewhat (and me learning to be calm)and I feel like it's "progress". So I don't know if it is that I am unnerving and unsettling his "comfort zone" by shaking his indifference to the core with my explosive personality and making progress, or am I just so dominating and tyrannical (which I've been known to do, no little miss muffet here) which was compounded by the whole "trust issue" which caused him to pull away so much (though even my therapist agrees that he has a lot of "avoidance behaviors")? Which is it?
Ok if anyone cares to read all this and respond, lay it on me...!

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Since someone gave you links to all your old posts, go to them and print them out....read them when you think you are going to 'cave' and/or change your mind.
Here's the thing about giving someone reasons (besides being hurt or angry) most people will do anything to keep the status quo so they will swear they will change, they may even do it for awhile, some may finally agree to counseling, but then after a few visits decide it's not for them. When you give someone a reason, they think they can FIX it, they want to fix it to prove you wrong because they feel less than and think that 'if only' they change they can win you back or make you love them again, or keep you in the relationship. The problem is - it IS engrained in their personality - it IS who they are. If they haven't seen a need to 'change' it before you, then they are happy where they are.
Don't marry your mother (the male version of your mother) to try and heal what she never was able to give you. You will draw in people that are emotionally unavailable to try to heal that childhood wound (over and over again) until you put it in persepctive, forgive, heal, let go and move on from that need (not an easy thing to do, but therapy does help).
Make a list of the things he's done to you that constantly proves he's emotionally unavailable, things he uses for escape (addictions included), things he does to avoid emotional/sexual intimacy (porn).
The comments about the trip, the tree, etc - if he was giving to get something from you, to keep you from leaving, then he was giving 'things' to you for the wrong reasons. And this is key, he still was NOT giving of himself. These were 'things' - material things to replace what you really wanted - an emotional connection, real feeling.
You have to be 'ok' with being the bad guy in his eyes, for wanting out, for recognizing basic incompatibility, for knowing what you want, speaking your truth and moving on with your life.
::And he WILL start retaliating saying he's sorry for having done or bought me anything (the trip for my bday, the cell phone, the Christmas tree)
Response - "Sorry you feel that way." Do not offer to fix his feelings. You are not obligated to leave him with a healed emotional heart. That's his responsibility.
Edited 12/2/2005 4:13 pm ET by itwinflame
Carrie
Here it is in a nutshell......
You're nobody in your own view. As a result you've been of use, service, benefit, and convenience to everybody for inclusion - considering it approval.
You've taught people how to treat you. Which is basically if they have a use or need - call you if you're an appropriate source. Otherwise - you yack and talk and you're totally ignored - because you're nobody of substance.
You want a relationship to bring you validation, completion, affirmation, approval, and a positive sense of self.
A relationship cannot do that.
If you wish to continue to date this guy - do it day to day. Don't sit there planning a future - because at the rate you're going - yours will be had in the psych ward of the local mental hospital.
You've got to become someone in your own right and eyes - before anybody has anythihng but a "use" for you - because that is all you know how to do and they treat you accordingly.
In short, if we put you in a room alone without you knowing when you'd get out......you'd go nuts. Nobody to give to and do for, no distractions and diversions...just the constant pounding in your head of "you're inferior, insignificant, inadequate, inept, unworthy, undesirable, replaceable, and dispensable" 24/7.
You can end that - but other people cannot end that for you.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
If someone has to talk you into it then you aren't ready to walk away. And until you are ready to walk away on your own, you will go back if given enough "incentive". Thing is, that incentive will ONLY be there to get you back, not because there is a change.
So, walk away if you are ready. But there is nothing wrong with waiting until you are.
Jen
Quirky, I'm not going to give you all the reasons that you should leave. If you leave him, you should rely on yourself and your own good sense. Not by leaning on the shoulders of a bunch of strangers on the internet.
However, I will advise you NOT to tell him that he needs therapy if/when you break up. Not only would it be incredibly condesending of you, but therapy is his own choice and it is not your place to tell him what to do. The way I see it, you've caused as many problems as he has, so don't go blaming him and his 'faults' for this breakup. It's incompatibility that is causing this - I don't see that either of you is always right or wrong.
Regarding the money issues, you are confusing me no end. So, I'm not surprised that your boyfriend is confused too.
On one hand, you want him to quietly observe your material needs and buy you things before you have to ask. I also detect quite a bit of you expecting him to *buy* your forgiveness on previous issues. But on the other hand, you keep saying that you want him to behave like you are a married couple. Hello? You can't have it both ways.
While I can't speak for all married couples, in my experience stuff bought within a marriage requires communication. (With the exceptions of birthday and Xmas) If you need something, you raise the subject yourself. Hey, my kid needs a new bed - is it OK if we buy one together? If you want him to behave like a married couple, then ACT like one and stop expecting him to magically fulfill all your needs. If you need something, then initiate it. COMMUNICATE with him!!
And once and for all, stop complaining about him buying himself stuff. You are NOT married, it's his money and his right. You are so totally out of line here. At this point, I've yet to see a poster who agrees with you on the financial issues - doesn't this tell you something?
Update - all things nice and rosy hit the fan tonight. Although not explosively, surprisingly.
BTW - just so you all know, I know I'm very dramatic, and neurotic but if ya'll could kindly refrain from the jokes about the "mental institution" bit I'd sure kindly appreciate it... thank ya much. (very sensitive issue) I know I'm falling off my rocker, not quite off it yet, but hey I learned from the best - Mrs. John F. Kennedy & her other personalities (my mother).
Aisha - the money issue - as it stands everything we both have is one another's. We have planned on being married so now is the time to point ourselves in that direction. I haven't made any major purchases without talking to him. He was doing that at one time but then stopped. He is an impulsive shopper, knowing there are priorities of both his own and our future that need to be prepared for. One is his debt which needs to be paid off. We've both agreed to try and work on trying to get rid of our debt in order to be in better shape when we try to get a house. It's all priorities.
I don't know what was confusing about the material needs bit...I don't consider myself materialistic, just would like my SO to be considerate sometimes of me, is that asking a lot? I have been considerate of him many times.
Well, the whole xbox thing turned out to be something I completely misjudged, however his comment the other night "I think I'm going to try and get more into playing video games" didn't help this assumption. He bought it and was going to turn around and sell it for a profit right before Christmas. Only I was the last person he actually was going to TELL because he said he wanted me to be surprised and proud of him for doing something like that and he thought I might be upset because he was taking such a big risk with his money. Complete misunderstanding from - ta da - lack of communication.
I apologized for being wrong, twice and was very very glad to know I was indeed wrong. He was all mad and huffy, said he wanted it to be over, so I quietly proceeded to pack up everything I ever brought to his house. I went through every room gathering my things. He said he would take back the bed and the sheets he got for my DD and I said "well if we're going to play that game, then I guess I'll take a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k..." (all the things I had given to him or his son)he shut up. I could not believe how quiet he got, and an almost submissive presence like he can either call it quits AGAIN as he said, which at that point I was willing to do or learn to deal with a misunderstood situation better without dramatically throwing in the towel everytime. He said "well you could say you're sorry" I looked him in the eye and said "I did. Twice." Then I got my children ready told them to give hugs, hugged his son and left.
He called me before I was even in the car. He even started crying and said he was hurt that I would think of him like that. He said he didn't think he dealt with the situation right. I didn't bring it up in anger in fact wasn't even going to say anything but he pulled it out of me and then flipped out. He doesn't give me the freedom to ask or say anything without fear of his reaction.
Well, he said, AGAIN that he doesn't want to break up. I said that I had apologized and was sorry, he said he was sorry. (oh and the bed? well he explained it in a much more pleasant way than I did on here and then proceeded to tell me he bought me stuff with the return - I was kind of confused of how to feel about that, I mean he did spend the money on my dd right so should I feel privileged that he spent the refund on me?).
Well I gotta go to sleep. I liked Jen's advice. I don't think I'm ready to walk away but I am taking it very cautiously one day at a time. Even my therapist said to give myself the freedom to not have to make a decision which is relieving. Funny thing is that I feel like I have never learned so much both about myself and about him and relationships until now...even though it's so difficult and whether this ends up lasting or not, I know that I have learned and grown so much from it which is a positive.
Goodnight ladies.
It sounds like when it's all said and done you do indeed know how to break up, you don't need anybody's help; which I suspected all along. You didn't use reasons or lists or arguments because they aren't necessary. Not that walking away wordlessly from a relationship is okay, but you certainly don't need an "approved, detailed" list or one that your bf/gf agrees with.
I'm sorry about the mental institution remark, I winced a bit for you when I read it. I'm sure you know the member who posted it doesn't know your history and that the remark was said tongue in cheek.
Walking away when you're not ready will have you running back at the first excuse and that's pointless. Of course, there's *ready* and there's ready. If you're looking for a time when it seems "good", easy or right for ending don't because it probably won't ever come. It's never fun or easy, and while it never feels good, after you've done it, the feeling can be pretty freeing; all the pain, drama, and emotion are over with, THAT feels pretty good.
I do think, though, that you're seeing more and more that points to the fact that this is not the right relationship for you, the compatibility is just not there. Sometimes staying around for a while serves the purpose of allowing you to distance yourself so that when it does come time to end it's not such a blow, you're prepared.
I'm not understanding what you're saying about the money issue, that you're pooling your money since you're going to get married. If that's true, why the struggle and anger over you having nothing while he has money to spare? If it's in one big pot, why were you going without? And -- if it's as you say, clearly it's in word only, he's still spending as he wants, and clearly showing you his personality and character in the process. This is another of those things that isn't going to change; it's another huge difference between the two of you. Regardless of what you've agreed money wise, no court in the country would side with you, it's his money. It also pretty clearly says he doesn't do what he says. He may say it's yours too, but he begrudges using it on you and does what he wants with it despite your agreement. Again showing that he doesn't consider you an equal or a partner. You got a glimpse of his character tonight when he went around jerking the bed away from your daughter. That's a real class act that would do that. But I'm sure you saw those same things.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
>>I don't know what was confusing about the material needs bit...I don't consider myself materialistic, just would like my SO to be considerate sometimes of me, is that asking a lot? I have been considerate of him many times<<
I don't know how to explain it any more clearly than I did already. (perhaps another poster may be able to better clarify what I mean) You seem to want him to detect that you need things and just buy them for you. However, you also say that your money is shared. If the money is shared then you don't need to wait for him to notice things - you just raise the issue yourself. He's probably quite happy to get stuff for you, but you need to talk about it. Not sit and fume because he hasn't noticed.
Is it asking a lot for him to be considerate of you? If he's naturally inconsiderate, then YES it is asking a lot. A previous poster suggested in another thread that you were trying to make him live by your standards. I do X for you, so I expect you to do it for me. Hon, manipulating your partner to act like how you want them to act isn't acceptable. You seem to be in love with who he could be - not who he is.
Lastly, the children saw the two of you break up - but it seems that neither of you has any intention of doing so. What kind of message are you sending them? That it's OK to threaten to break up and then not do it? That it's OK to be in a relationship where everyone makes each other miserable but 'sorry' makes it all OK? Do you want your children to follow in your footsteps? Because you are already well on the way to role modelling the behaviour.
Where is your self esteem? Why do you accept a guy telling that he doesn't want a relationship with you, but you still return to him at the drop of a hat? If he doesn't want you, then find your dignity and leave him. And for the record, if he REALLY, TRULY wanted you, he would not dare threaten to end the relationship.
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