Deal With Conflict Differently! (long)

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Registered: 05-19-2003
Deal With Conflict Differently! (long)
24
Fri, 02-24-2006 - 2:02pm

Hi to all of you great ladies (and probably a few men). I've posted here irregularly in the past but lurk often. 2nd_Life, if you're reading this, you and I have emailed due to prior postings, where you also referred me to the domestic abuse board - and thank you for that! (I posted under the nickname "borismchugh" those times.)

All of that being said, I do spend time on the abuse board, because I believe H is emotionally abusive and I know it's a situation I need to get out of. I do have 2 small children which makes it difficult and while I try to establish a timeline for leaving, I need to try to "keep the peace" so to speak, without losing myself in the process.

My issue today is this: When H has a problem with something, he usually gives me the silent treatment or uses sarcasm and is very confrontational. Occasionally we're able to have somewhat "rational" arguments, but it's usually when I'm the one bringing something up. My way is probably over the top in the nice and thought out department, based on the way he is but anyway, when I'm upset I try to wait for a quiet moment when he hasn't had a bad day and approach the situation calmly, trying to be very careful of wording everything right i.e. not being confrontational, using the words "I feel like" or "it seems when we...." instead of "you always do this", "why don't you figure out...", "it's your fault that..." etc. which is the way he likes to address something he's upset about. He loves to start out with one problem he's having and then tack on a few more and by the time he's done I'm boiling!

This was today: DD is almost 3 and we're weaning her off of the pacifier. She is hooked on it for sleeping, right after she wakes up and in the car because DD, DS and myself have a long commute everyday. H announces one day last week to DD - "that's it, you're done with the paci except for sleeping". Hello - he never discussed it with me except when we talked about her stopping it when she's 3. At that point I pulled him aside and said "I would appreciate it if we could discuss these things ahead of time - I'm the one that will be dealing with the "separation" process more than you will." and we agreed to do it more slowly saying that while at home she gets the paci in bed only but still has it in the car. Well, I kind of screwed up I guess, because I still let her have it in the a.m. while she gets ready because then she just takes it in the car. This week was her last week for having it in the car so therefore she wouldn't have it in the morning next week. So, he sees her with it this a.m. and immediately says "why do you have that paci?" and then turns to me and goes off saying "this is why she whines so much, she's always getting different information from us, we agreed she wouldn't have it except for bed, I don't know why I bother saying anything around here, you never listen. and by the way, you left the garbage cans out last night and didn't turn on the outside light, why not just announce that someone should come by and try to break in." (he was out last night getting drunk with friends, which he does twice a week while I got home at 7:00 a.m. with the kids, fed, bathed, played with, put to bed, emptied and loaded dishwasher, did load of laundry, picked up and finally fell into bed at 10:15 p.m. But, I digress....) Of course I immediately lost it, listed off all of those things I'd done the night before while he got in the car and left. He called and continued the argument from the car, saying I never listen to him, I always have to be right, why does he ever bring anything up, etc.

My problem is the way he communicates. Very confrontational. I am very non-confrontational, which also isn't good and I'm trying work on that. My parents never argued in front of me which probably gave me an unrealistic view of marriage in that regard and made it difficult for me to deal with confrontation but I KNOW that and feel I've worked at it. With anyone else I'm fine but when he goes off on me, I feel very attacked and naturally go on the offensive. I've tried very hard to remain calm but he makes me so mad. I don't feel I always need to be right and I think most of the time there is no "right or wrong" but he always feels there is. It's so completely frustrating and just one of many reasons why I need to leave. I've told him if he could just stop for a minute (or a day!) and bring things up calmly, I'd be less likely to be immediately on the defensive. Then he goes off on this "i know, i'm not perfect, now you're trying to tell me how to talk to you" tangent which solves nothing. Do I think because (one time) the garbage cans are out at 11:00 at night and the outside light is off means we're more likely to be burglarized? Not at all but I'd agree to not let it happen again. Which I told him later when I had calmed down.

Am I doing something wrong here? Could I communicate more effectively with him? God knows once we divorce (some day!) I'll still need to deal with him because of our children and I don't want every conversation to break down into this. And, although later on this a.m. he apologized, said he was stressed out, that's always his excuse and we'll go through this again sooner than I'd like. He won't work on his end of this, so I need to work on mine. But frankly, I'm at a loss. It's SUCH a struggle for me to remain calm lately although I usually can. Ugh. I just can't stand him most of the time and that's the main problem. Maybe I need an outlet - a punching bag? LOL!

I'm sorry this got so long and involved but I'd appreciate any input. You guys have SUCH good advice on this board - which is why I lurk so often! I'd love some help.

Thanks so much.
Lisa

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Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 02-24-2006 - 2:13pm

Welcome back Mom2dylan2001 ~


Yes we have emailed, and as I recall there were more than a few similarities we shared!








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-2005
Fri, 02-24-2006 - 4:56pm

a few thoughts that might help you. There's really no such thing as a rational argument.

Argument is one person attempting to make another person/group see things from their point of view for their own benefit. It is simply two entities talking "at" one another and whoever can talk longer or louder, or whoever can ignore longer without it disturbing them to be silent/getting the silent treatment wins.

There is no resolution of a problem sought in argument. It's the attempt to get someone to do what you want, or do it your way - so that you don't have it to do it or adapt to another method.

the "silent treatment" is the first form of manipulative control we learn as kids. Whoever can handle the silence wins....so the least attached or bonded person always wins...that's how you can tell who's involved and who's "benefitting" from any liason.

go back to the story of Solomon - who had the child brought to him with two mothers claiming maternity......his answer found the mother "split the kid in half, each gets half" - the one who spoke up and did not want that, was writhing on the floor in agony at the thought and rushed towards his throne with no hesitation for her safety - no, give her the child befofre you do that. That's the mother.....

So the perosn giving you the silent treatment is strictly there for benefit and convenience, and so it doesn't "bother" them not to have contact with you, in fact it would iconvenience or upset the to have ocntact with you because they don't consider you worthy of it at this time as you have "upset" them.

My problem is the way he communicates. Very confrontational. I am very non-confrontational

No...here's the thing - the entire relationship has been on his terms,for his needs, his way or the highway. He wouldn't have gotten with you if you weren't there for him, while all you wanted at the time was "inclusion".

He didn't get with you out of respect and appreciation of your intelligence and character. HE didn't get with you because he considers it a privilege and honor to affiliate with someone of your standards and principles. He got with you because when he barked - you jumped...and he likes making you jump and squirm. And anybody who won't jump and squirm is an irrelevant worm,and he wants nothing to do with them.

Here's the thing...the man is emotionally driven. He reasons like an immature nad insecure person - which means his feelings are high in priority in the thinking and action and feeilngs patterns he utilizes to conduct himself at all times.

Feelings are transitional...they're not facts, goals, calls to action, and tools of cognition........but he's using them as all those things.

So basically, he wants you to be soldier at the ready to do his bidding at all times, and you're supposed to read his mind and do whatever it is he thinks is right at that moment.......

so you're trying to reason with someone that thinks with feelings........it can't be done. And if you have no expectation of stability, serenity, dependability, stability or responsiblity on his part towardsyou or the kids or the bills - you'll be just fine...otherwise, you're doomed.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

Avatar for mom2dylan2001
iVillage Member
Registered: 05-19-2003
Fri, 02-24-2006 - 5:44pm

Erin,

I was happy to see your response. I always read your responses to others on this board with interest because you seem to have so much insight and are so good at sharing your observations. You've also nailed my situation right on the head and your honesty is appreciated.

So, how does one deal with a person who thinks with his feelings? His feelings do govern all of his actions and reactions. I've gotten tired of catering to his every whim, trying to anticipate every "need" and want and basically be his mother. I believe I am doomed if I stay with him. I have finally realized that this behavior will never change. No matter how I approach it. He always talks louder and longer and so many times, you're right, I've given in. Out of exhaustion, frustration, to get back to the false sense of peace that I try to live in just to get through every day. The silent treatment I've been handling differently lately. I'll ask him what's wrong only one time. When he says nothing, I go about my business. I'm trying very hard to break the pattern of agonizing over what I've done to set him off and ask him over and over to tell me. I no longer agonize, but I do still analyze things I've said and done over the period of time leading up to the silent treatment. It's been very difficult for me to break out of that pattern. I suppose it's going to take me some time. But, me ignoring him while he ignores me usually works - he'll eventually tell me what I've done to "cause" his silence. And, IMO, it's always something ridiculous. And although I try not to treat it as such, because it always makes things worse, sometimes I just can't help it. And, now that I think about it, his response to me in these situations is "I know, I'm not allowed to have feelings. I'm not allowed to be upset." I HATE it when he says that.

Again, how am I going to deal with him? I can't have the rest of my life be one confrontation after another with him. Maybe, eventually, once we're apart it will be possible to get along, enough for the kids' sake? I once had thoughts that if his emotions could eventually be removed from me we could, but after reading your post and realizing that you're right, he is emotionally driven, I doubt that will ever happen.

Thanks for giving me some things to think about. I'm again amazed at how right you are about everything - it's as if you've been watching my relationship with him.

Lisa

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2004
Fri, 02-24-2006 - 5:49pm

I lurk here sometimes and dont remember posting before. Have you noticed that almost all the advice given on this board is some variation of "leave him, you are being abused"? I really would take the advice with more than a pinch of salt, if I were you.
I have to play devil's advocate here and say that instead of LISTENING to your husband all you are focussing on here is how he approaches you.
When your husband pointed out that you had given the child the pacifier, he was right that she was getting wrong signals, was he not? Instead of realizing that, you come here on this board to vent about how your husband is confrontational. What does that even mean, "confrontational"???
Secondly, your husband goes drinking twice a week. Is that something you agreed on? If it isnt then you need to address that. If it is, then why are you completely ignoring what he said and focussing on the fact that you did blah blah while he was out partying.. if you have a problem with his partying while you are left stuck with the kids then focus on that, not on the fact that he is "confrontational".
From what you have written I dont see anything other than normal issues that come up in a marriage.. parents differing on how to handle kids.. couples arguing about garbage cans and lights. Why are you reacting so badly to this? Maybe part of the problem lies with the fact that you dont even know what arguments are.. if there is any difference in opinion you immediately start feeling victimized and like you are in a corner. Arguments happen between people, and often they happen when both people are not perfectly calm. It happens in every scenario.. you cant expect to go through life being protected and only have arguments with your husband under ideal scenarios. That is utopian, and that's not how most relationships work. People argue and get over it and make up and forget about it.

"I never listen to him, I always have to be right, why does he ever bring anything up, etc"

These words are the words stemming from extreme frustration at not being heard, and from you have written, I do tend to agree with parts of it.
I'm sorry, but I think that you are also in the wrong here. I am sure that you have issues in your marriage and your husband's communication style is different from yours and needs to be worked on, but it seems that instead of actually HEARING your husband and communicating, you prefer to come to this board to get validation on how nasty your husband is and how you are being emotionally abused.. I dont know anything about your past history, but honestly from what you have written in this mail, I feel that you are as manipulative as your husband is. You keep on using his behavior as an excuse for not addressing the real issues in the marriage or even acknowledging your own lapses. You probably have a ton of resentment against him and probably even fail to notice when he DOES make a genuine effort. If I were you, I would go to a real marriage counsellor instead of coming to these boards and getting all sorts of biased advice. A counsellor will be able to see both points of view and be able to show you how BOTH OF YOU can possibly improve your own approach so that you and your husband communicate more effectively. If you want to fix the marriage then stop blaming people and start taking responsibility for your actions.
Does your husband yell, scream, call you names, threaten you, control you? If he does, then that is abuse and you need to get help. If not, then stop feeling like a victim.
Is his tone very abrasive and strong? Then that is confrontational and aggressive behavior. Is that your problem? If so, then you should work on that with a counsellor.. not start throwing up your arms and ranting about it on a board where everyone agrees with you and tells you that you're right no matter what.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 02-25-2006 - 1:11am

Welcome to the board, Plainjane95, it's always nice to meet a board lurker ~


I hear you say that you disagree with the advice and suggestions generally given on this board and I urge you to post with your thoughts. Differing viewpoints are always welcome, it's what makes the boards so great; what works for one doesn't work for another. A differing viewpoint can offer a perspective that's very helpful and valuable -- I've changed my entire thoughts on issues because of a perspective I didn't start out agreeing with.


In this situation, Mom2dylan did say her husband was verbally abusive. She also said she frequented the Domestic Abuse board. As for her husband's alcohol use, abuse issues and a better picture of her situation (you said you didn't know anything about her past history), I posted the link to her previous post in my first response to her in order to help those who respond to her post have a better understanding of situation and past history.


In the situation she describes, I agree with you that they were both in the wrong, and that the communication isn't good, but having good communication with an abusive, alcoholic, or (as in this case) an abusive and alcoholic man isn't possible.


I hope to see more of you on the board ~







~ cl-2nd_life

"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."

~ Author unknown








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sat, 02-25-2006 - 2:29am

Lisa, here are several informational posts on constructive arguing in our Information and Resources section. These were given to me by therapist friends who use them with their clients:
Verbal Fencing With Someone You Love
Ten Rules For Fair Fighting
Dos and Don'ts For Fair Fighting
Conflicts - Points to Remember

While they may help you with your part of the situation, they won't resolve a lot as long as your husband isn't agreeable to do work on his share to make your communication better.


The thing is Lisa, you can't have good communication and a good working relationship with an alcoholic, abusive person. It's just not possible. You can suck it up, you can kiss his rear, you can yell back, but the bottom line is he's going to continue to act and react the same way he always has. It's not about the issue, it's about entitlement and control. In my experience of living with a verbally abusive alcoholic, it was more about damage control than anything else. You can do it all right, but it won't matter, he'll find a reason to be angry and blaming anyway. Fact is, abusive men decide to be angry and set their women up so there's no way they can't fail.


In the specific situation you described, you were both wrong. He was wrong to mandate the end of the pacifier without your agreement and you were wrong to ignore the agreement the two of you eventually made. Going a bit off side of this, I think you're both wrong to push this kid to let go of her pacifier. This child is growing up in a verbally abusive, alcoholic environment. Her dad's angry and fuming, her mom's tense, angry and unhappy. Pacifier's spell comfort and this kid needs all the comfort she can get. Why take it away from her, she'll give it up when she doesn't needs it anymore.








~ cl-2nd_life

"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."

~ Author unknown








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 06-17-2004
Sat, 02-25-2006 - 2:42pm
I read the link you posted. Thanks for pointing me to it. I still stand by what I said, however. All your advice to this person is based on the assumption that he is indeed an alcoholic. She said that she is sure that she can establish that he has a drinking problem and based on that you concluded that he is an alcoholic. As far as I can see there has been no real proof that he is indeed an alcoholic. Maybe he is, but shouldnt a counsellor, who can see these people and here both sides be a judge of that. Moreover, she mentioned that she had indeed be seeing a counsellor for 6 months, yet she does not mention that the counsellor indeed confirmed any of her suspicions about his having a drinking problem. You are basing all of your advice on what she says here, without, I am afraid, thinking too much about it. I think that it is very easy to label things as "emotional abuse, verbal abuse, alcoholism" because it doesnt require you to delve deeper and you can immediately throw out your pet refrain: leave him. I dont mean to insult you or anyone on this board. I know that everyone means well, and it's great that they take the time to reply and advise people. My concern is that considering that people actually do follow your advice, you may be doing them a disservice.
In all those past posts there is NO proof whatsoever that he is verbally abusive. Yes he threatened to take the kids away, and no doubt that was said in anger.. Yes, he comes home drunk and that very well may be signs of a problem..it's just that it hasnt been validated by a counsellor who talked with them for 6 months. This woman married this man knowing that he was of questionable character, knowing that she wasnt happy. She had children with him knowing the same facts and all she has done to rectify the situation is go to counselling (?? what sort) and come to this board for validation of her own weaknesses and insecurities.
People who like to become victims often do end up becoming so, and I have no doubt that if she is not already truly one, her behaviour, her lack of effort in introspection will indeed turn her into one and indeed one day her husband will be able to manipulate and control her. I am absolutely certain that this woman is a manipulative "victim", and a weak, insecure person. She knowingly married a cheater, a dishonest jerk just so that she could spend many more years doing exactly what she's doing.. complaining, without acting on it. She needs therapy from a real person, and marriage counselling from a qualified professional. She doesnt need more patting the back and validation.
You people, who advise people on this board, have had some lousy experience being married in the past and it is my fear that you end up projecting it on every single relationship problem. Some problems are NOT big.. some are not signs of "abuse", which is a word you people use pretty freely.. and some can be solved by some talking, introspecting and action from both parties.
If I ask you to find 10 cases in the past few months, where you and others on this board have no advocated leaving the marriage, can you find them? I dont think so. You think that you are helping people, and I respect that you are indeed trying... but I would urge you to stop and think about what I am saying, before you go ahead and advise any other people.
Giving people the advice to leave relationships, labelling people abusive and alcoholic are serious allegations. Please dont make them lightly. And please act responsibly when you do make them.
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Sat, 02-25-2006 - 5:24pm

Just cuz you asked,

I think I can find 10 cases (maybe not in the past few months since my posting has been spotty in there) where I did not advocate leaving. In fact, I rarely advocate leaving IF the people are married. If they aren't, well, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax. But I do think divorce is too easy. And in this particular case, I haven't bothered to read the first post and haven't responded to this one either. Just wanted to say, that making overgeneralizations are something that everyone seems to do. (Hehehehehehe.) :)

Jen

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Sun, 02-26-2006 - 10:08pm

What I know is this, Plainjane. The OP sees alcohol as being a problem. One of the definitions of alcoholism is when alcohol is causing a problem in your life yet use continues. Alcohol is causing a problem in his life; he isn't able to make it home approximately two working nights per week and the relationship he has with his wife (and kids) suffers as a result of that as well as is strained due to the problem that his alcohol use is causing. If you prefer, switch out the word "alcoholic" with "problem drinking". It's a problem and he's not changing it. Maybe he doesn't see it as a problem, obviously he doesn't want to stop. Her choice is to stay and accept what she can't change or leave. You can't force someone to change if they don't want it.


I don't agree that it's easy to toss out words like "verbal and emotional abuse", but I won't shy away from suggesting it is the problem if that is indeed what I think. I suggest you read the links and informational posts on the Domestic Abuse Board’s Homepage . You should have also noticed that I always refer those who I believe are in abusive situations to post on the Domestic Abuse board and read the information available on their homepage. I ask them to check further into their own situation. But suggest that living with a man who is verbally or emotionally abusive is okay or that it will get better is keeping those women stuck where they are. If you understand abuse you understand how confusing and trapping the cycle that it follows is. See, the tricky part of verbal abuse is that it's not necessarily verbal threats to kill or inflict bodily harm, it's much more subtle than that. It doesn't seem to be abuse at all, and that's a big part of what keeps women stuck in it. It kills your spirit and your self esteem. I'm sure you know about positive reinforcement, it works the same as the negative reinforcement of abuse. You're right, these women are victims. Some walked into situations totally blind to characteristics that indicated worse to come, some follow the examples set by their parents, some saw signs of concern, but believed they would get better, some just weren't thinking. No matter whether they walked in willingly (and wrongly) or not, I don't believe the mindset of "you made your bed, now lie in it" is a sentence anyone deserves.


I suppose we could insist OP's send their husbands out for evaluation then come back and let us know what the diagnosis was before offering suggestions, but that seems a bit much, don't you think? And I suppose we could doubt what they say and suggest they're exaggerating and that things aren't really "that bad", but both those things goes against the entire purpose of the boards. People post on the boards asking for the thoughts and suggestions of others, and that's what they get. They don't have to agree with it, they don't have to follow it, but they do get what they came for. I'd also like to point out that it's not as thought their posts are blindly followed, I'm always asking questions to make sure I understand the situation correctly before forming an opinion. If those OP's don't come back to answer the questions, I don't offer suggestions. I happen to know that many of the regular responders on this board wait for the OP's response before posting answers themselves if they feel more information is needed.


Yep, lots of us have had "lousy experiences", I personally don't think it makes us project anything. I think it makes us a lot more aware of what it takes to have a healthy, happy relationship. The funny thing about you suggesting that we should suggest counseling more often is that we very often do -- enough so that some charge us with "taking the easy way out" and suggesting counseling instead of offering advice. *sigh* You can't please 'em all, that's for sure! One warning about suggesting counseling though, couples counseling should never be suggested in situations where there is abuse (verbal and emotional included). "Regular" counseling is not helpful in those situations, it is harmful and causes much more trouble for the abuse victim.


You're absolutely right, Some problems are NOT big, some are not signs of "abuse", and responses to those issues can be found throughout the board. You're also right that some can be solved by some talking, introspecting and action from both parties. If you lurk much on the board, I know you've seen me post my list of constructive arguing links, and you've no doubt seen the first five posts in the Information and Resources section on Lessons in Communication. I refer OP's to them as well.


I appreciate your concerns and your disagreement. I again suggest you stick around and offer your own advice; differing viewpoints are good, and, if you feel what we're suggesting is wrong, offering what you feel is right would seem pretty important and valuable to the OP's that post here.


Lastly, your ten post challenge? I found your ten posts within the last nine days. Let me know if you'd like me to post the links to them.







~ cl-2nd_life

"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."

~ Author unknown








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-2005
Mon, 02-27-2006 - 12:11pm

Lisa,
I haven't watched your relationship with him...I've just been "you".....and "him" at one time.

How do you "deal" with an emotionally driven person.

You're going to have to step back and detach, and step back to assess objectively if you can meet your goals in life as an individual, and your obligations in life as a mother - while dealing with his inconsistent, incongruent behavior.

You can't 'rely' on emotinally driven people....because you can't control life's options and oppoprtunities that'll befall them in the course of the day.

So, a summary of how I'd approach today a relationship wtih an "emotionally driven" person is this........

If I was "in love" with someone that was emotionally driven, I'd have to put my life and lifestyle in ap osition where I was not reliant on them in any way - to do anything that was necessary as I see it for me to reach my goals, bea success, or expand my horizons.

I'd be treating them as someone I enjoy and respect and admire for 'who they are" - they're fun, but they're unpredictable, rather like either a "cute puppy" or something simlar. I'd realize I can't ocntrol them, or predict them - it becomes my option to "nejoy" them while letting them run free.

IF the day them "running free' and doing thier own thing and being their own person while I am following my path involves me spending time, effort, money or thought into "how what they're doing is impacting where I"m going" - I'd end the relationship.

You're responsible for the lifetyle you life, and the success in your life - and you've got to define it to achieve it.

I know if I had children I could NOT be with someone that was emotionally driven simply because it's emotionally draining. And raising children as I see it now is a responsibility laden obligation that demands that you "enjoy" the child, while guiding and nurtuirng the child to be a mature, secure adult as they define that.

So the way that you "enjoy" your children -when they do somethingthat pleases and gratifies, but the way that you structure and control your children so that they don't end up in trouble that eliminates thier options and your serenity....that is NOT the approach you can have an emotionally driven adult/adult relationship.

You can't control what they do or want, or believe is right and their right - if you can't enjoy them as they are, for who they are, you have no business with them.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

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