Defensiveness
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| Thu, 12-29-2005 - 1:37am |
New here and this problem may seem small but - it could lead to something worse.
I've been married for 25 years to DH, a great guy in most ways. Attentive father, responsible around the house, financially secure, doesn't run with the guys/smoke/drink/gamble/do drugs/chase women. But there are a couple of huge problems in our M, and the biggest one so far: he is so defensive that we can't have a reasonable disagreement or discussion.
I've actually been feeling distant from him off and on. He is often distracted and sometimes depressed, and I try to understand what has happened to cause those feelings by talking with him. But when I am distracted and down sometimes, he doesn't seem to notice and doesn't ask about it. Although he is exceedingly responsible about the house and he will suggest activities for us, he doesn't connect emotionally with me. I just don't seem to exist as more than a room-mate, except for sex which involves 1 minute of foreplay with "hey how about ..."
So I'm capable of asking for what I want or need. The problem is this: when I ask him to hold my hand or tell him I need to talk, he is nothing but defensive. "You don't need to ask me to hold hands. I've held your hand before" or "We just talked last week. Why are you always saying I don't listen to you? Why do I end up being wrong again?" are typical responses. I won't even go into what happens when I do criticize him.
I've lived with this for 25 years and now my tank is running on empty. I've told him over the years that one day, someone will come along who is willing to listen without being defensive and I fear what I might do. That day is here, and I'm trying to tell DH how empty I am and how vulnerable I feel - but he immediately becomes defensive. I hear "Every time we talk, it's always about how I screwed up" to the point I can't say anything that can't be turned into an accusation. I'm fighting to tell him I need his help - his attention and his concern - to avoid seeking it from someone else. But protecting himself seems so much more important than listening to me.
I'm sick and I'm sad and I'm tired of trying to dance around his defensiveness. I'm ready to give up. BTW, I asked him to read a MC book with me but he said I was trying to trap him into admitting some mistake.
Any advice on dealing with this before I bail out after all this time?
QB

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Hi Queenbea. Welcome to the board.
I've got a few different comments and am a little worried that I'll be hard to understand, so I'll go through your post point by point in the quest for clarity. Also, please understand that I'm making a number of assumptions here. I've got it all *ss up, please don't be offended - just give me more info.
>>he is so defensive that we can't have a reasonable disagreement or discussion<<
Being defensive is an instinctive reaction to feeling threatened. And from reading where you've quoted him, I'm guessing that he feels overly criticised and nagged by you. I'm not saying that you mean to do this to him or that you're a terrible person - but something needs to change and I suspect that it's in the manner of your requests. I'm also not saying that you should ignore all the issues here, but perhaps you need to learn a whole different way of communicating your needs. Out of curiosity, how often do you make suggestions of how to fix things in the relationship?
>>I've actually been feeling distant from him off and on. He is often distracted and sometimes depressed, and I try to understand what has happened to cause those feelings by talking with him. But when I am distracted and down sometimes, he doesn't seem to notice and doesn't ask about it<<
This is a classic example of Venus and Mars. In this aspect, you and he are no different to almost every other couple out there. He's not ignoring you or being uncaring. He simply thinks that you need space to work out your issues. I've yet to meet a man who willingly wants to probe into other people's problems LOL. This isn't something he's doing wrong, rather, it's how men are programmed. It's no different to you asking him about his feelings when in reality he probably wants space to work on them. You are a normal woman and you like to talk about what's on your and everyone else's mind. He's a man and men like to figure things out themselves. If you want to talk about what's on your mind, just come out with it. If you wait for a man to ask, you'll be waiting forever. Likewise, if/when he doesn't want to talk about his problems, respect that. Don't try and change him on this one or even discuss the Venus Mars thing with him. It's just how most men are.
>>he doesn't connect emotionally with me<<
I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Can you give any examples?
>>I just don't seem to exist as more than a room-mate, except for sex which involves 1 minute of foreplay with "hey how about ..."<<
This is something that can be easily addressed in the bedroom. When he's ready to climb on board, just say "I'm not ready yet" and stop him. Or when you initiate sex, you could say in a sexy voice "tonight is going to be a looooong session of foreplay" with a nudge and a wink.
>>So I'm capable of asking for what I want or need. The problem is this: when I ask him to hold my hand or tell him I need to talk, he is nothing but defensive. "You don't need to ask me to hold hands. I've held your hand before" or "We just talked last week. Why are you always saying I don't listen to you? Why do I end up being wrong again?" are typical responses. I won't even go into what happens when I do criticize him<<
OK, what I'm getting here is that both of you are falling down in expressive and receptive communication. Why do you ask him to hold your hand when he's made it clear that he doesn't like you to ask him? Why don't you simply hold HIS hand and avoid any need for requests at all? With the "you don't listen to me" thing, I can totally understand where he's coming from. He's probably got no idea of *exactly* what the problem is. You need to get specific. Don't use generalities when asking for what you need. And most importantly, DON'T EVER make suggestions where the sentence starts with "you never" or "you always" or "why don't you ever...?" etc etc. Such sentences are 100% sure to make him defensive. And if he's learned that "we need to talk" means that he's going to get criticised, of course he'll get defensive before you even start on the subject. You've gotta find a different opening line ;-). If you give us some examples, perhaps we can help you word them so as to not make him defensive.
I'd be inclined to summarise my response with the following advice: Read the Venus and Mars book and figure out which of his behaviours are instinctive. Use it to help you work out what needs to be addressed and what doesn't.
Thanks for the quick reply and I'll try to be more specific.
I would estimate our M generates a major emotional discussion once every 3-4 months (as in "we need to talk") and a minor casual adjustment once a month (as in "could you please ..."). The last time we had a melt-down was October. The usual course: I feel ignored, I try to tell him, he reacts, I shut down, nothing gets communicated and he doesn't care.
Well, that's the issue. I feel ignored, I try to tell him, he reacts defensively and I have nowhere to go with the communication because at that point anything I say is a criticism. We are no longer talking about me or my feelings: we immediately shift to him and his feelings. I don't exist; I'm not allowed to be dissatisfied.
>>he doesn't connect emotionally with me<< I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. Can you give any examples?> We go out for a nice evening. He talks about going back to our hotel and "playing a game." We have an intense conversation about something else, not angry. We get out of the car and he walks away without even looking back. I ask "Would you wait for me" and he is defensive "You didn't move fast enough. Why are you blaming me?" For heaven's sake, the man was just talking about having sex with me and he can't even wait for me to get out of the car? Forget hold my hand. I figure a hooker would at least get that.
I'm reading Love Languages and I ask him if he would be willing to also. He agrees, so we go to the profile questions in the book. He makes fun of the questions, won't answer, gives silly answers - I say "Maybe this was a bad idea. We don't have to do this if you don't want to." But he says he doesn't want to stop yet he won't take it seriously. When my turn comes, he doesn't listen to my answers, my enthusiasm is obviusly shot and the whole point of taking a profile to see how to communciate better is ridiculous now because he has no interest. I'm hurt and disappointed that this means so little to him, that understanding me means so little - and now tears come. I put the whole thing away and his response is "What's the matter with YOU?" I have no simple answer to that accept "I can't do this right now" and he doesn't even bother to ask why. Should I blurt out "Because I feel so alone living with you that I am thinking of having an affair?"
So now I'm confused. I thought I WAS supposed to ask if it's on my mind. I have to ask because he's 5 feet ahead of me and I can't catch up. I saw it as a nice excuse to slow down.
My last opening line was "Would you be willing to read this book?" Geez, I'm having trouble with this one because I avoid obvious opening lines - having learned that "We need to talk" is translated into "I need to tell you what is wrong with you."
Sometimes it's "We have a nice life but it takes work and I'm having some difficulty." Or "Any marriage requires work. I know we've been busy but I feel disconnected. Can we talk about that?" Or "I'm concerned about our intimacy, and our sexuality is important to both of us. I don't get sexually started as fast as you, so I was thinking it might be better for both of us if we could ..."
Is this problem clearer? And yes I'm aware he feels overly criticised. But I swear to you, it doesn't take much and I'm so tired of every discussion being about his issues. I truly feel like I don't exist and my issues don't matter.
Hmmm...I'm not sure where to go with this. I'm hoping some other posters will chime in shortly with their POV. But in the meantime, I'll give it a shot.
From what you write, it sounds as though he's perfectly happy just as he is. He's got no intention of changing because he's happy with himself and his life. Which essentially throws the ball back into your court.
If things never change, can you stay in the marriage? Because at present, there are no indicators that he's wanting to change anything.
My first marriage was a little like yours. My husband was essentially a good man, but he was really only interested in himself and his own issues. I felt very lonely and yes, I did have a couple of affairs. When I eventually left the marriage, I was greeted with a string of "we can work on this" or "I can change", but for me it was too late. Once out, I didn't ever look back once.
If you think that there is still hope, then I suggest that you do something drastic to make him take notice of just how miserable you are. Tell him that it's marriage counselling or else a trial/permanent separation. And if you choose this route, only do so if you are sure that you can follow through on your threats.
I also think his reactions may well be a way of avoiding dealing with problems. If he takes a "how dare you" stand, and manages to put the blame back on you, the focus is now on you -- you're the defensive one, the one who scrambling to defend yourself against his accusations, leaving him completely off the hook and out of the light of focus. If he manages to make you feel guilty about it, chances are you're not going to bring the subject up again for a while, so he's off the hook there too.
You asked, "Should I blurt out "Because I feel so alone living with you that I am thinking of having an affair" Well I don't know about blurting, but if that's honestly where you are then yes, I think giving him a reality check is absolutely appropriate. If you're ready to walk out the door or look for another man to satisfy you, then absolutely he should be informed that your marriage is at that point -- the breaking point. I would suggest one of two things, sitting down with him and telling him exactly where things stand, where you are and what's coming next if there's not a drastic change. I wouldn't suggest doing that without knowing what you want and expect (couples counseling should be mandatory) and what you're prepared to do if he shrugs you off or refuses to take the actions you need in order to continue. That way he knows exactly where he stands and what the consequences are of not taking action. This also gives you the ability to give him "one more chance", give it straight up and real, leaving no doubt as to what the problem is and what needs to happen. If he doesn't agree to what you need then you know clearly where you stand, what you and your marriage mean to him and you can move forward full in the knowledge that to continue to try is useless and to stay is senseless. If you choose this, I would have a paper with my needs/issues/requirements bulleted out, short and sweet to help keep you focused on the issues should he try to direct attention another direction. Also, if you're like me, in situations of heightened anxiety (as any 'showdown' is) my brain goes blank and I need the help of written words to remind me of what I wanted to say. The other method I would suggest is to write him a letter. Maybe explain to him like, "I don't know what to do, how to approach you. I'm not happy, but when I tell you I'm not happy or try to talk to you about things I need to see change in our marriage you say things like, "We just talked last week.", "Why are you always saying I don't listen to you?", or "Why do I end up being wrong again?" How can I talk to you if doing so makes you feel blamed or wrong? How can I make you understand I'm not happy if I can't talk to you? How can we make improvements in our marriage if we can't talk about them?" I would also write out that you're at that point you are. He needs to see that your marriage hangs in the balance here. What he does with that knowledge his his choice.
25 years is a long time to be in a marriage, but staying because of the amount of time you've put into it isn't a good reason to stay, IMO. Adding more time and more misery to 25 years already spent happy does not make any sense. Staying you'll know exactly what to expect and what your entire life will have been made of up to your death. Leaving affords peace, happiness and freedom from an unhappy, unsatisfying, uncaring relationship. You may not know what life on your own will have in store for you, but you'll know for sure what you'll be leaving behind. I was married for 17 years when I left. Not 25, I know, but enough that some would say, "should I give that up?" Frankly, I said, "what's the point in staying for a lifetime of THAT?" It just took me a long time to figure out it wasn't going to change and then some courage to get out that door on my own. I can't speak for you, but it was the best move I ever made.
Edited to say: regarding the opening line of your post, this is anything but a small problem. Your happiness is incredibly important. This is your life you're talking about. You want to live it feeling fulfilled, happy and satisifed. To do otherwise is existing, not living.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
Edited 1/3/2006 3:14 am ET by cl-2nd_life
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
2nd life,
< this is anything but a small problem. Your happiness is incredibly important. This is your life you're talking about. You want to live it feeling fulfilled, happy and satisifed. To do otherwise is existing, not living.>
Thanks so much for your lengthy response. It is so helpful to have a perspective outside my own. For so long I've been saying this is a good M that I convinced myself there were no problems. Now I'm not sure because I find myself exhibiting behaviors I don't think are healthy.
In his defense (funny!), I think he does care about me deeply -- but that only extends to the point I ask him to take responsibility. I remember vividly our first year of marriage having an argument in which we could not agree: if he said he loved me but I did not feel it, was it his responsibility to change what he did to create that feeling for me or my job to change and accept his words as enough? It appears we never resolved that.
He doesn't typically enjoy putting me down, hurting me, making me feel less than equal but I do think his idea of trying is to agree then go on as he's always been. I am sure he doesn't realize I am not happy -- and I'm not even sure "not happy" describes it. It more like not satisfied or essential or vital, just functional.
My task is to determine how to tell him that while getting past his defensiveness. I truly believe if he knew, he would take positive action and he would go to MC. But telling him in a way in which he will listen is the trick, and it may come down to talking about my thoughts of leaving. I appreciate the suggestion about writing things down because I do go blank.
This would just be so much easier if I had a concrete reason for feeling this way, a behavior that I could point to. But it's the absence of something so hard to grasp - that feeling of being seen and heard - that is so hard to ask for. But if I don't try I will never know.
"if he said he loved me but I did not feel it, was it his responsibility to change what he did to create that feeling for me or my job to change and accept his words as enough? It appears we never resolved that. "A few things come to mind. If you'd never felt the love he says he feels, then it's yours to either accept the relationship is as you chose it or leave it upon realizing it wasn't enough for you. If his actions, words, etc. changed and what you once felt from him is now gone as a result, it's his to be who he was, to some degree, but basically, in a happy, loving, healthy relationship if one partner doesn't feel the love the other professes to have, the partner is concerned and caring, wants their love to be felt and together they search for and work toward resolution to the problem. From what you've said it sounds like he didn't care to make any effort to concern himself with how you felt, or since you've said it isn't that he doesn't care perhaps it's that it's more of a completion to prove who's right and nothing else is addressed.
I have to say too that I'm a bit confused that you insist he does care. You didn't demonstrate that a bit in your post. How is it that he cares? How do you know, how does he show it? Could it be that he's told you he cares for so long that you simply *know* he does because he says so? Words are great, but they have to match the action or they're just lip service./p>
I also don't understand how he can not know you're unhappy. Do you think he's gotten so used to you "complaining" over the years that he thinks you just enjoy complaining and criticizing and that it has nothing to do with how you feel? I've got to tell you, if someone is complaining to me on a regular basis, I'm pretty certain they're not happy -- at least not happy with me. And if they're complaining about the same things over and over, I'm pretty clear about what issues are not being resolved to their satisfaction.
Lastly, do I hear you say that rather than describing how you feel as "unhappy", you feel a lack of being alive, noticed, appreciated or really wanted? I have a hard time seeing you as "not unhappy" yet looking towards an affair. Seems to me if you were happy in your relationship an affair wouldn't be the vaguest of considerations. Have you considered seeing a therapist to work on exploring and defining your feelings and working on figuring out what it is you want? I think that would be a good, healthy step.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
2nd life,
I'm afraid I may have confused things. My original question had to do with his defensiveness and then I veered into my feelings about the M - which at present are difficult to define. But to your final suggestion, yes I see a therapist.
We have come to the conclusion that the M is functionally efficient - in fact works quite well as a equalitarian relationship - but that my emotional need for recognition and intimacy are not being met. My DH is supportive and caring and a great parent and even a good sexual partner. Where things fall apart are our expressions of love:
- he uses acts of service (running errands, washing dishes, etc.) or words
- I am looking for a deeper level of attention to my thoughts (WHY my feelings were hurt by DD - not just that she did; WHY I was moved by that story - not just that it was sad) and my uniqueness (not just "I love you" - rather "I love you because ...")
He is devoted to tasks that show his caring for me, and I don't deny that his actions and his words demonstrate his feeling. But the feeling has a limit. He can't stop "doing" long enough to know or to ask if it has meaning for me. I'm just supposed to "know" he cares by what he does. And he does it without looking at me, without seeing me, without listening to me - almost as if I am an inanimate receptor rather than someone capable of giving feedback or having individual and changeable desires.
I'm not saying he thinks I am stupid: in fact, he actually considers me to be his intellectual superior. And it's not that he ignores me: we spend time together - he just ignores my emotion. And by ignoring my emotion, he is failing to know "who I am" and what I need to feel the depth of his caring.
This may be a matter of semantics, given that happiness is sometimes difficult to define. I am "content" in my functional relationship. Our M is "efficient and comfortable." On a daily basis, we work and play well together. My outer words are being heard and my actions are being recognized. He has done nothing to hurt me.
But on a different level, my inner thoughts not being heard - my aspirations and desires are not touched - my motivations are not explored and my satisfaction is not addressed. There is a part of me unrelated to my functional life that is unseen and starving. The thought of an affair is the cry from that emotional well: that says if someone asked me what I was thinking, what I desire, what motivates me, what I need to be satisfied - if he listened to that and indicated his pleasure in the uniqueness and responded to it - I would feel alive in a way I haven't for a long time.
I'm trying to find a way past his defensiveness to tell my H that, so he can be the one to fill that need. My fear is that if I can't convey that or if he is incapable or unwilling, then I am vulnarable to having someone else fill that empty well.
I think what you're doing is what I do for many years in my previous, dysfunctional marriage. That is to believe that if I could only find the right way to say what I wanted that my husband would suddenly understand, change and I'd finally have the happy, fulfilled marriage that I wanted. The truth for me, I think, is the same for you. There are no magic words, it isn't that he doesn't understand what you're saying. He's not stupid or deaf, he has no deficit where it comes to understanding other things you say, or other people, does he? The problem is you're trying to get him to change from who he is and that's not going to happen. It isn't that he doesn't get that you want more emotionally, it's that he isn't interested in fulfilling it, and it's not you, it's him -- he'd feel the same about anyone, it's just who he is.
All of the above having been said, you mentioned what he *does* for you in the name of *proof* of affection. What you describe is very typical of the differences between men and women. A post written years ago by a male member on another board that I feel explains that very well I've "borrowed" and reposted in our Information and Resources section. You can find it here:
Men, Women and their expressions of love
A book that you might find enlightening and helpful is "How Can I Get Through To You? Reconnecting Men and Women" by Terrance Real
I think what you're lacking is very important, I can't imagine feeling at all fulfilled without it.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Queenbea,
I've been thinking a lot about you and your post.
I'm going to differ from the other posters. I don't think your husband is a mean, insensitive guy who only cares about himself. I think that he is doing what he thinks is a good job of showing you love and is interpretting what you tell him as "You suck." Which makes him defensive and feel less of a person. I don't think that you are wrong or that he is wrong. I think that you two aren't understanding each other and there has been a lot of hurt in the process that is getting in the way.
I read Dr Laura's book today on The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands. I'm having a hard time with all of it, don't know if I'm just being defensive and selfish or if I have a reason to have a hard time, but it is opening my eyes on a couple of things that I think you would benefit greatly from. I know someone else recommends a book called Love Languages or something close... You could try that one instead.
I don't think you should leave your DH or have an affair. I think he loves you and is talking in a way he thinks shows it. I think finding a pro marriage counselor (yes, there are those out there who aren't into preserving a family unit) would be a great thing. I am saying this to you because you have said that with this aside, he is a great dad, partner, etc. So I think you have something wonderful and worth working on.
Good luck.
Jen
2nd life,
I appreciate most of all that you understand something is lacking and it is important. Yes, it is true the mechanics of the M are fine, that my emotional needs are not being met - although I have to consider if it is incompletely. What you said about yourself is very true of me: I do
I have not yet been to the post you recommended or looked for the book, but I will do both as I continue to work on this. Thanks for your insight and support.
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