Difficult situation with wife
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| Wed, 05-31-2006 - 12:58pm |
Hi, I am going to try to make a long story short, but forgive me if it draws out a little bit.
After 18 years of marriage with my wife, we are at the point where it might end. For the most part, we have been happy except for one primary cause. She is an emotionally needy person. She requires constant attention (high maintenance). A lot of this stems from her childhood where she and her sister were pretty much abandoned by their father first, then once they reached their teens, their mother. My wife's search for love and attention caused her to be promiscuous, beleiving that she could get somebody to love her through that (which we all know is false).
When we met, we had a whirlwind type romance and fell for each other, then soon after married. Along came kids and everything else that goes with marriage. Over the years it has pained her that I have not shown the attention to her that I did when "courting". Now I have always treated her very well and try to always remember to show some kind of affection to her daily and to tell her often that I love her, etc., but she seems to think our marriage should always be like it was when we were dating. We used to stay up until 3am often those days talking (and other things), but she didn't work those days and could sleep until whenever, but I had a professional job and had to sneak away somewhere to take a nap because I was getting exhausted.
Over the last 6 or 7 years things have taken a turn for the worse. Whenever things get busy and attention fades just a little bit, her reaction becomes more severe. Accusations of affairs, yelling and screaming, throwing things. If she could gently nudge me that things are lacking, I would happily give her what she needs, but instead she says that I don't love her because if I did, meeting her emotional needs would be automatic. I cannot even get a word in edgewise during these times and have learned to just shut up, but resentment just builds inside me, and naturally makes it more difficult to give her the attention that she needs because I feel like I am being manipulated.
Here about 3 or 4 days ago, she said she didn't want to be married if I was going to be this way. Things I thought were fine, then whammo, she was livid at me and hit me with this. I didn't want to argue so I walked out the room to cool off, then she went nuts and started hitting herself in the face and stuff. She took off her wedding ring, which remains on the nightstand. No further talk of divorce has been mentioned, and we are civil to each other.
My question to anybody is - does it appear to anybody that a woman like this can be ever satisfied with attention short of quitting my business and trying to recreate our honeymoon? She is quite beauty, but at 35 she has been getting really down about wrinkles, and excessive weight, and things like that. If I try to tough this out, will it just be a continued marriage of pain? I hate hurting her, but I don't know how I can ever meet her needs, as it seems like her needs are far more than one person can meet. She says I am a great husband outside of this area.
Also, she will absolutely never consider counseling. She thinks it is all hogwash.
All comments will be appreciated. Thank you.

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"Others include her tendency to quit things easily because of her fear of failure. Her need to control everything. Her tendency to immediately try to find someone to blame when something goes wrong (and it is never her). I spend my life biting my tongue because even if I gently suggest the things that you are speaking about, she gets very angry and defensive."
Check, check, check....this is a profile of my X and very consistent of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder)...your words/feelings, not mine.
I divorced a borderline after 7 years and I can not emphsize enough how difficult it was to see the situation for what it was while I was in it. I did exacly what you did....taking the blame on myself, trying, and trying, to fix "situations". At the end I recall four very strong feelings
1) I felt like I had to leave or she was gonna kill me (not physically, but my spirit), there was no sustainable joy when around her.
2) It did not make any difference what I did, and the "situations" were irrelevant....this is how she was, and who she was --- period.
3) My kids were growing up seeing this as their strongest example of a marriage --- this literally frightened me to my core that they would grow up thinking this is how married people are together ---- what chance would they have at happiness!
4) What is wrong with me that I let someone treat me this way?
The last one took a lot of healing time and therapy after the separation. Hang in there. P.
Wow, I had no clue. I thought some of these symptoms were unrelated. Your point #2 hit a nerve, regarding that it didn't make any difference what you did. Needless to say, expectations of me are extremely high in all areas of life. There are not enough hours in a day to fulfil all expectations. If she complains that things around the house and yard are falling apart (exageration), then I can spend my free time shaping things up, then I haven't spent enough time with her, or our son, or whatever.
One thing that has really come on strong here in recent years is that her focus is her health. She become quite a hypochondriac. She's had some ongoing back and neck problems and I have always been there to help her deal with it, but every little sign and symptom of anything becomes our focus of conversation for many days. And no matter what kind of ill I have, she has it work. If I have a headache and mention something, she has more pain than I am. If I am feeling stressed out about work or something else, she has more stress. Reminds me of that character they had in an old Dilbert comic strip called Topper. No matter what the situation, she can top it.
You have been a great help to me. Knowing that somebody else has dealt with this (not that I wish this suffering on anybody), but that IT IS NOT ME. She has no clue of how rude and downright mean she can be, saying or doing things I wouldn't dream of doing to my spouse, but I am too big to stoop down and get even, so to speak. When she gets on a verbal attack, and tries pointing things out as to WHY I am feeling that way (such as explaining why I haven't been wanting to be intimate with her), she won't even let me complete a few sentences without accusing me of turning the tables and trying to get the heat off me. Sometimes I get so damn frustrated I wish I were dead. But I'm a very positive person and bounce back quickly, luckily, otherwise I know I would fall into a deep depression.
Thanks again.
Hi 2ndLife,
Maybe I was a litle too positive when I said otherwise my marriage has been good, but I cannot say we haven't had our good times, or there has been times when I am happy. However, for the most part, I am unhappy. It's a good thing my glass is always half full to counter my wife's glass, who is always half empty. I compensate by enjoying the other things I have in life and making sure that I am a decent person and good to other people, my wife included.
You ask what happens in our relationship that brings on her neediness attacks. Generally it is the lack of the attention she needs, not meeting her quota. She can go through short periods of time in which she is quite independent, and that is such a relief for me, because expectations of me are less. When she kind of hangs out around the house feeling depressed and I don't shower her with attention, both emotional and physical, then things are building up in her. I work out of the house, so I can be deep in thought and working hard and cannot be hugging on her, and she gets annoyed by this.
Yes, our intimacy has suffered, but a lot of it is due to my resentment towards her. One of the posters on this thread has lived through this, and he understands what I am going through. It's hard to want to get intimate with someone who is so doggone rude, and the things that comes out of her mouth can baffle the mind. I have to FORCE myself to be intimate, and I know as long as I do a good job at it and she is satisfied, I can earn a few days of peace in the house (she is very sexually selfish). When I was younger I used to dream about being with another woman, and while this enticement still exists, much of it now is wishing to be married to a normal woman, like some of my friends. Their wives treat them so well and they are bent on pleasing their husbands. Most of my time is spent trying to please a self-centered wife, and the thought of how I created this monster constantly flow through my head. I keep thinking maybe if I wasn't such a giving person she wouldn't be so selfish, and on and on and on. I analyze myself over and over and compare myself to some of the other husbands out there where their wives would be thrilled for them to do half of what I do as a husband - it's the only thing that keeps me sane.
Thanks for your well thought out response.
The hypocondia in an adult is often present when there was severe childhood abuse (a therapist told me this). In non-BPD it is kind of a avoidance mechanism for certain situations. In case of BPD she is using it to generate sympathy --- this is one of her main emotional currencies....paint herself as a victim (of all kinds of stuff, at the hands of many others, including being a victim of physical pain). If she finds someone that feeds into this she is getting her emotional need for sympathy met --- like a sponge sucking it out of whomever will listen to her.
One therapist tried to explain it to me like this...she has the emotional reactions and control of a 12 year old --- "arrested emotional development." This is why her outbursts seem so childlike in natute...they seem like total over-reactions...and she will do or say ANYTHING to get her way (control), nothing is sacred and once she knows your buttons it can be absolutely brutal. As a good illustration, the very last minute of my marriage before separation looked like this.....she was hammering me about getting off the couch and doing something for her (mind you I was playing a game with the kids), so after taking a torent of verbal abuse I sighed and got up to do what she asked. As I did I said (in a very calm but slightly annoyed tone), "once in awhile I just wish you would say please." Her reaction..... she freaked out and started hitting and attempting to choke me through a torrent of profanities, all in front of our children. That was the last straw, I moved out that minute --- she had been escalating the physical stuff as she felt me disengaging in the weeks prior to separation --- she was losing control which is the ultimate fear of BPD'ers.
I am curious...one of the absolute tell tale signs of this is what psychologists call "splitting." One minute you are a hero and within seconds with little or no provacation she will unleash a torrent of verbal abuse turning you into a life form below a slug. She will do it with friends and family also ---- people often go from her best friends to the dog house and back regularly. Do you see these behaviors?
Reading Stop Walking on Egg Shells was actually a defining life event for me...suddenly things that never made sense, started to make sense....I was flooded with a sense of relief. And I was able to slowly step back and realize what part I truly paid in the failure of my marrige (significantly less than I thought/feared when in the situation, probably cause she spent so much time telling me what was wrong with me). Eventually after dealing with a lot of the turmoil of separating, I worked on figuring out how to heal myself from the damage that had been done.
P.
The hypochondria is something that gets more severe each year. Granted she has some medical issues due to neck problems that has come back after a severe accident several years ago, but her fears regarding her physical condition has reached new heights. This morning she was upset that her left ear lobe was red and her right one isn't. She is now very concerned about this and she things it may be a sign that something more serious is wrong with her, something the 8 or 9 doctors in the last 2 months have missed. She has had an MRI, CT Scan, Xrays of her head and neck region, and it shows 3 bulging disks in her neck which is treatable, but every little symptom that she has must mean something more severe. Typical hypochondriac thought process.
Probably about 75% of our communication these days is about her neck and back. This hurts, that hurts, should she see another doctor, and so on and so on. I am about ready to pull my hair out. They have already told her to expect a recovery period, but since she is not OK now, then something else is wrong.
You asked about splitting. I have never thought about this until recently and now I can remember a lot of examples. In fact, just this morning there was an example. She is on her way to the chiropractor and she calls, and his receptionist (who is his wife) is now a "witch" because she seems to cop an attitude when my wife is late for appointments, or asks for anything extra, etc. Up until now, my wife had only glowing remarks about her. For me, it is only glory or goat, no in between. She can turn on me in a heartbeat, and I am to the point where I don't even want to be around her anymore. Right now she is gone for several hours and I feel at peace. When she gets home my stress level goes up without her even opening her mouth because I never know what to expect.
A question I have for you. When you decided to leave, how did your wife react? Were you afraid she would do something to herself, or to the kids, the house, or even you? Or were you at the point where you didn't care anymore (except for the kids of course)? I am tempted often to leave, and one point a few years ago I already had toured a few apartments, but I am still concerned about her well-being and the possibility of suicide and things like that. Are these feelings just part of the control?
Thanks for all your help.
Hey Groovinguy;
Glad you are gettting a few hours of peace.
If/when you make the decision to leave there is lots to consider. I made some mistakes along the way that I would do differently if I had to do it again.
Myt X did not handle it well to say the least. I made the mistake of thinking that separation and counseling might help and save the marriage, so I left the house, moved into a one bedroom apartment near by but did not file for divorce for 3 more months (we told the kids I was travelling for work during the week and she would go to work on weekends and I would come to the house). Iwould also meet them at their weekly activities. The therapy was a disaster, she spent the whole time denigrating me and frustrating the therapist until she finally split him bad and stopped coming. During this he recommended that she see a psychiatrist so she could get medicine with monitoring. She went and then promptly stopped taking the meds after about 3 weeks. When she stopped coming to therapy I filed for divorce. This was like setting off a bomb. She went nuts. She immediately called all of my personal friends, family, and some work associates and told them that I was crazy and having a mid life crisis, having an affair and all sorts of nasty stuff (this is common reaction for BPD's I learned from Stop Walking on Egg Shells). She hid some of my possessions with a neghbor, threw out lots of my stuff and started spending money on stuff for the house (getting the decks stained, new carpet, etc.). She immediately took thousands of dollars out of our joint account and put it in a new account just for her....despite the fact that most of this money was expense reimbursements for me for work that needed to go to American Express. She physically assaulted me just about every time I came to the house to pick up the kids (who I talked to before filing). Threw stuff at me, pinched, punched, tried to get in my car so I could not leave, attempted to choke, and on and on. For awhile I had to have the police there during the exchanges cause she was truly out of control. She told me I could not see the kids anymore. I had to live with every other weekend for months till I got a temporary order in place which included more time and curbside pick-up so she was supposed to stay in the house. She would often barge into my apartment when she was dropping off the kids and start screaming at me. Slowly as we ground through the courts these things got rectified, the money and the custody but it was a long battle. So that brings me to some advice if you go this route.
1) DO NOT leave your marital residence. As soon as you do you automatically start from behind with the custody situation. You need to live there and continue to particpate with the children even after you file for divorce. She is gonna make this a living hell so I recommend lots of trips with the kids, and a separate room with a keyed lock (that only you have a key to). Even though this will be difficult you need to stay unless you truly believe she will kill you. The good news is the months of hell will prevent years and 1,000's in court cost. If you are lucky she will leave...saying haha lets see you deal with the kids without me.
2) Once you file do not engage intially in negotiations with her if you try and she is abusive. Let your lawyer do this when she is at court. In addition to saving you the abuse, it is important that others in the court system start to see how irrational she is (including her attorney).....she will be highly susceptible to outrageous demands and outbursts in the stressful situation of being at court. The court people will realize quickly she is irrantional, will be frustrated with her behavior (as will her attorney) and this will pay big dividends later if she decides to fight long and hard (mine did and it cost a fortune and took years). She said often her plan was to try to torture me for the rest of her life (I actually played this answering message in court at one point).
3) Keep your eyes on the financial stuff but do not segregate any monies that are already together. If you are afraid she will sell joint mutual funds you can have a freeze put on them so they can't be sold without both signatures (doesn't stop her from forging). If she starts misbehaving here it will eventually catch up to her in court. Keep good records....bank statements, credit card statements, etc. They will be key needed later if she plays games. Money is one of those things it is easy to become distracted with and to fight over.....most of this will make little difference in the end and is a waste of energy.
4) Get yourself a good attorney. The good ones cost more than the others but given her likely reaction you are gonna have to spend some time in court and a good lawyer is worth every penney when it gets to court. You will not have a typical negotiated divorce and I would venture to say your chance at amicable is less than 0. Many divorce attorney's have very limited actual court experience, ask about this (it is embarassing when the judge lectures attorney's on how they are supposed to ask questions of witnesses). You should also ask him/her about Borderline and what he knows about it and how it might effect his/her approach to the case. I assume you will file for primary custody, given she will be 10 times worse without you in the house with the kids...so file for this as soon as you file for divorve. You should immediately discuss a custody evaluation and potentially psychological testing for her. Her attorney will proabably fight it but if you get a decent custody evaluator they should see the situation....my custody evaluator did. Your attorney should have ideas how you can get the court to order the psych eval (may be able to or may not).
5) Get yourself a good therapist. You are gonna need someone to talk to initially about how to handle the additional stress and abuse that she will be heaping on you, and as time goes on how to heal yourself from being in this relationship. Depending on the age of the kid(s) they may also need therapy. Always ask for their experience with Borderline. When you deal with people who do not understand this they think you are lying or exaggerating her behavior cause it is often so illogical. If they have experience this, this will not be an issue.
6) She is gonna likely tell the kid(s) bad things about you and your motives (and that may be the understatement of the year. If they are about 4 or older, it is best to talk to them just prior to filing so that they get some rational alternative to what she says...it will still be brutal on them. She will not be capable of leaving them out of this....she is just plain incapable. The kids represent two things to her at this point --- a chance to control you, and another place where she might lose control.
7) Start keeping a very specific log of the abusive things that she says and does. If you wnd up in a long court battle over custody this will be key to helpoing th ejudge see just how bad it is. In the end my attornbey told me this was an absolute death nail for mine with hundreds of specific incidents "logged". This is not a chore you are going to enjoy but force yourself to stay current. I kept mine on my work laptop so I would take a fe minutes in the morning or at lunch each day and make upadates.
And lastly DO NOT engage her in debate or argument that leads to her abusive behaviors. Go to your room and lock the door, or leave the house. You need to TAKE THE HIGH ROAD here not matter how difficult it is. She will try to bait you into all kinds of stuff, pushing the buttons that she knows you have. If you lose your temper and engage and god forbid even assault her you will get killed in the courts and maybe even arrested. Given her hypocondria she will undoubtedly try to create some sort of health crisis where she has to be hospitalized to win your sympathy. Try to let BEST INTEREST OF CHILD(REN) GUIDE YOUR ACTIONS. This will be important not only for them but for the custody situation.
Hope this helps. Happy to offer whatever advice I can along the way. Rest assured once away you will slowly start to see how great the world is again, and how great of a rest of your life you can have.
P.
orange, you don't know how helpful your post was. I have saved a copy to disk (printing is too risky) for future reference. It is as good as gold.
What you described is actually what I imagine would happen here. It would be hell on earth and I would have to take the blame for everything. What will make things a little better is that our children are not little. The oldest son is 20 years old and long gone. Our youngest is 16. The oldest left on bad terms, and does not communicate with her anymore (says he hates her). I bet that does not come as a surprise. The youngest is more tender hearted and loves his mother, but I can see increasing amounts of frustration in him when dealing with my wife. I can sense he is feeling a lot of the same feelings that I do and has learned to not argue. Not sure how that will come out in the end.
For the last few days since I have learned all this, my mind has been flooded with so much, tying together things that have happened now and well into the past, and how they now have an explanation. It's bittersweet. Sweet because I realize that I am not going crazy, bitter in that I know her chance of getting over this is slim. She would be like your X in regards to therapy, except that she would never put her in the door the first time. She is very, very anti-psychology.
Something came to mind earlier today. She told me on several occasions that her grandmother used to beat up her grandfather. Her GM is still alive, but her GF passed away over 10 years ago. I know he was an alcoholic for many years and I attributed the beatings to his alcoholism, but now I am not too sure. I read where BPD can be hereditary, and I know there is mental illness on her father's side, but the GM in question is her mother's side. However, her mother is a piece of work anyway - she is the one who abandoned her sister and my wife when they were in their early teens so she can chase after married men and save them from their bad marriages. Her father was a Vietnam vet who left when she was 6 and developed severe schizophrenic symptoms. His mother apparently had issues to boot. So if mental illness is something passed down, the odds are pretty good here.
Other than the upcoming battle with her, I see an upcoming battle to recover in me what was lost. Friendships that I had are pretty much all gone. No time anymore for friends, as all my free time is now spent with her or doing her rather extensive honeydew list. Not sure if you had that problem. We live on a ranch, so there is always plenty to do. We have had lots of problems making and maintaining friendships with other couples. I always took the blame upon myself thinking I have just become an uninteresting, introverted person. But I have seen a pattern in her friendships, the good/evil syndrome, and how she can come across as being very harsh to people. She can be very friendly and talk 100 miles an hour,but I think that comes across to other people as very pushy (I am very easy going).
Thanks for being an ear. I will keep in touch with progress or if I have any other questions. I guess one that I have right now is how did you keep yourself together during the separation and divorce? Man, it sounded like you were in a living hell. I have to hand it to you, it would be difficult to keep your composure.
Sorry to be coming back so late, Groovinguy. I understand that your wife's "neediness attacks" are brought on by having her quota of attention, what I was looking for was a specific example of an incident. Can you give us an example of a "neediness attack" and the circumstances that surrounded it's coming on?
~ cl-2nd_life"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Hi groovinhuy, glad I could be of help.
Since you are down to one child, age 16, the custody process will be much different than when dealing with small children. At 16 his wishes will play a significant role and he may be 18 anyways by the time you are divorced. You should find out what age child support is paid until (some states it is 18, and some states it is 23 or out of the house/college). If your son does not already get counseling you may consider it as part of this process. Almost certainly as she has split him as the "good son" (mine does this constantly, between my three boys, very common BPD parenting behavior) she will attempt to use him as I descibed. The more he tries to please her, the harder it will be for him and more he will feel conflicted ---- this divorce will really upset his world even more than some kids because he is in a role of trying to please both of you. My guess is that your 20yr old will give you a high five and ask you what took you so long at some point.
How did I hold it together? Lots of things and I made some mistakes along the way including leaving the marital residence, fighting about possessions that were insignificant in the grand scheme of things, WAY underestimating how hard she would wage a "scortch the earth" campaign against me, and not insisting my lawyer emphasize her mental health issues more formally in the court process (psych eval, earlier) Basically he did not believe me that she was this bad and kept telling me "you married her so the worse she is, the worse the judge will assume you are" --- this is a common saying lawyers use to try to get you to negotiate on certain points and he was convinved I had no shot at custody initially cause I left the house for 3 months before filing --- after a few encounters with her and a review of my abuse log (which he suggested) he got it. I did not read Stop Walking on Egg Shells and gain many of these most significant insights until about 1 1/2 years in and in hindsight wasted time in marriage counseling. My other big mistake was within about a day of separation I was out on the internet trying to date. After only about a month of casual dating, I found someone that was willing to be srious and I got way way too serious too fast. The good in this was she gave me some much needed medicine --- wsa nice to me and made me feel desired --- I was like a starving man craving these things at that time. In the end it was a mistake cause I was in no condition emotionally to be commiting to a serious relationship. It ended a few years later when I got my oldself back (although very amicably, at least). I know dating was part of the healing process for me, I just should have been more cautious about how serious I got in the middle of all this (easy to say, hard to do).
What I did right was relied on my extended family, made the most of the time I had with the kids, stuck to my guns on the court stuff in the issues that mattered most (my kids), made sure we still celebrated all the holidays and other family traditions as much as possible, and got some therapy. Initially as support through the current stuff and then later I moved on to answer the burning question of why did I let someone treat me like this for 7 years, and how I am I gonna be able to deal with my BPD X as a co-parent (knowing BPD...the term co-parent is of couse ridiculous, I feel like laughing every tme I use it in reference to our arrangement).
No magic formula I guess, just an understanding and admission that I needed help and support and the willingness to accept it (not always an easy thing for me and I think also many men).
Keep me posted on how you are doing. P.
Sounds like you've got yourself a true codependent there. As long as she looks to you to meet all of her needs, instead of herself, there are going to be problems and unrealistic expectations from her.
She really needs to get into some type of therapy if there are to be any lasting changes. Even if she won't go, it might be helpful to you to find some therapy to figure out why you were attracted to this level of neediness and how you can manage the situation (if you do indeed want to manage it any longer). If you stop playing into her manipulative games, she will have to make a decision to either change along with you or to leave, but she will have to respond some way. She will likely first respond by escalating the manipulation, but if you can hang on through that, she may change along with you.
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