Don't know if we're gonna make it....

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-21-2005
Don't know if we're gonna make it....
50
Tue, 10-11-2005 - 8:20pm
I need help. Today I had the realization that an actress on a show that my bf likes to watch all the time was a name I had seen on his computer (long time ago). I flipped out when I realized who it was. (All stemming back to porn suspicion, but this was when I found the porn and crap when he hid it) I flipped out at him too because I didn't like the fact that he seems to be into all these beautiful women and don't know what I trust him looking at anymore...
I can't stand him watching angelina jolie movies cuz he used to look up crap on her too. I don't even like watching one of our favorite shows we used to watch together all the time because there's sexy scenes in it all the time.
He says he doesn't know if he can handle my insecurity and I don't know if I can handle this either. This stuff did not bother me as much before the porn issue, if we watched a show with whoever in it, it didn't affect me like this, but I am a mess now and I don't know if I can handle myself anymore in dealing with this.
He lied to me before when I thought he was the one person that never would, did something I felt so disgusted with that he already KNEW I hated and even said because of "LOVE" he wouldn't need to but did anyway... Now I feel threatened even opening a magazine and seeing women who I don't know if he's looked up, looked up porn on, seen porn on, or just likes to check them out cuz they're hot....a stupid magazine I used to buy all the time which I put down only a few minutes later because all the reminders literally made me feel sick to my stomach. I don't know what to do.
I'm just a mess....please help...
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 10-14-2005 - 12:32am

Quirky, I see you're headed in another direction, but personally I see much more reason for concern than I did before -- and I saw plenty before.


You don't know if he's addicted to porn? What does he say? What is he doing about it? You say he was in rehab/12-step program for cocaine addiction? WAS? Is he not in a 12-step program now? No NarcAnon or anything similar? You said, "my therapist recommend that he go to SA meetings because of his addictive personality and that it may be porn now, or was (I hope)..." This is very important: there is no such thing as was addicted to anything. Once your an addict you're always an addict and it is a battle you fight each and every single day. Yep, addictive personalities can and do cross over to new addictions, that's called "dual addiction". They can start with alcohol, get cleaned up, go to drugs, get cleaned up, go to porn, and/or relapse on any and all while they're going into a new addiction. The bottom line is this. He is an addict and he always will be. It disturbs me very much that you don't have any idea whether he has a porn addiction or not and you don't seem too concerned to find out and I honestly think it should disturb you too. Is he concerned? Has he done anything to explore the possibility? You say he doesn't talk much and that you've learned to accept that. Are you saying you're kind of in the dark about what he's doing/thinking about this whole thing? I am not an expert by any means, but I do have some experience with addictions and treatment and I can tell you that from my experience the addicts who do not talk about their problem, who sit quietly and say they're okay are the relapsers, the ones who are still using whatever their "drug" is. Or they're not actively working their program to stay clean, they may be clean for a while, a few weeks, a few months, but they'll go back to it the first time the urge really hits them. Here you are, with guy who's a known addict, who's been lying to you for a year and you're not sure whether he's addicted to porn or not. Does he need treatment? Hard to know if you don't have a clue whether he's addicted to it or not. What's he doing about this? All of that is very alarming.


Another thing that sends red flags flying huge for me is the whole sex thing. IMO the fact that he thinks he can't wait a few days for you to get back to town indicates a lack of control to his sexual needs. He can wait, a few days will not hurt him. Self control is a part of being an adult. Please do not think I have anything against masturbation, I do not, but nobody *has* to have sex every day or every three days. I think the fact that he can't or won't use self control indicates the possibility of a sexual problem (addiction issues). *Needing* to get off to to get off to pseudo images of you because you're out of town for a few days is what's creepy. I checked this out with my husband, he thinks it's creepy too. And why would he tell you any of this??? If your guy needs the aid of a picture to get turned on and satisfy himself to, simply not using a photo should mean he's not aroused and doesn't have a need for self-satisfaction. I know we all have our own sexual habits and preferences, but what you've indicated raises flags of not being within the healthy realm and, I think, build a stronger possibility for the sex addiction we've been talking about with the porn.


You say he wants to be Prince Charming. What's he doing to achieve it?


You say you don't want to "give up on him" because others have not given up on you, etc. this is not the same thing. This is your life you're talking about and it's about making the choice to stay with an addict or not. You cannot put this into the realm of "both needing a lot of work", this is addiction, it will never go away. You've identified one addiction for certain, probably two, the writing's on the wall that there will be more to come. Why? Because for starters, he hasn't identified his triggers, hasn't recognized the addiction cycle that puts him back in danger of more/new addictions. And maybe he never will be interested enough to do the hard work that's necessary to get in control of his addictions. My ex husband was an alcoholic who went to rehab, unfortunately it was not successful. Why? Because his interest was not in stopping drinking, his interest was in keeping me from leaving. When his efforts in rehab "paid off" (I stayed) he slowly went back to drinking. Not that he preplanned that, but when you're not really interested in stopping what you're doing, removing it from your life, you're not going to stay away from it long term. he will be an addict for as he lives. For as long as you're with him addiction will be a part of your life and will be something you'll have to stay aware of and alert to.


You said, "I know how much we lean on each other and understand each other and we are each other's support system in a lot of ways... ". You cannot be his support system or his "lean on me" person in this. He has to deal with his addiction himself and in programs that deal with addiction. This isn't your place, you're not able to be this for him. CANNOT.

You may both suck at relationships, but this is so much huger than any relationship skill. This is ADDICTION. You can both be wonderful at relationships, an addiction would still be something to run from, especially in what you've described. This is not a guy who has ten years sobriety under his belt, this is a guy who's relapsed recently and likely has come up with a new addiction yet to be dealt with. This is serious, and will not take you good places. Add to that the fact that you have issues surrounding his new problem and you've just thrown gasoline on that fire. You've also guaranteed yourself a whole lot more trauma. You're also putting your kids in the middle of this addictive problem. Please think about that.

Huge, huge, huge red flag: you see "potential" in him. That thinking has trapped more women in bad relationship than any other I can think of. Potential doesn't count unless he's doing something with it. We all have potential that we never, ever use. Sticking with someone because of what they might become isn't reasonable or rational. All you have is what they are today, that is all you can count on or rely on. To expect anything different is fantasy. Unless he's actively striving to achieve that potential -- for himself, not to be what you want him to be -- potential is nothing.

"I know I never would have learned all I have or gotten to the point I am at without support from people who loved me and who I felt safe with. "Do you feel safe with him? "He still is in many ways the person I was always looking for, a partner who can share so much with me, we lean on each other and are learning together. I just think both of us need a lot of work and I hope that we can do that together somehow... " Addiction is not something you can "share", he'll have to work his program himself. It's his issue, his problem, his to deal with. And if he's not working on his program he's in danger of relapse. You can't lean on each other, he cannot lean on you, he has work to do that you cannot help him with, and you cannot lean on him because he's busy dealing with his own stuff. If he's not, that's a huge problem too.

I really, really urge you to find a therapist counselor who is trained in addiction. While your counselor seems to key in that your boyfriend may have a problem, he's not correct in thinking his addiction "might be porn now", "might be porn too yes, but "now", no. Unless he's trained and licensed in addiction he won't understand the processes, the addictive thinking and can't know how that will play out in a relationship, therefore will not be able to counsel you adequately. Being competent in the area surrounding the issue is of the utmost of importance.

You said he really is the man of your dreams. Please consider.
The man of your dreams..
  • lies to you for a year?
  • Allows you to build a relationship that contains things he knows are hurtful to you, things you've expressed as being very fragile about?
  • Is someone you have to check up on?
  • Doesn't talk about the issues?
  • Doesn't possess good relationship skills?
  • Is an addict who is not stable?

    I get the feeling that you're not well versed in addiction. I would strongly suggest you join a Nar Anon for families group to get acquainted with what it means to be in a relationship with an addict. But mostly I would urge you to step back from this relationship, think about what you're putting yourself in and what you're putting your children in. Take a look at the reality of the situation rather than what a great, nice, cute guy your boyfriend is. There are plenty of great, nice, cute addicts who are active in their addictions, and/or who relapse continually relapse and use throughout their lives. The devastation caused to the people around them is great, the effects do not go away.

    I too write tome-sized posts. Do not worry about the length of your posts, you need to say what you need to say. As far as "monopolizing the board", I say, huh???? Nobody has to read your post unless they want to. You're monopolizing nothing, post away.






  • ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 09-21-2005
    Fri, 10-14-2005 - 4:07am

    I can't sleep, too many thoughts in my head...

    Ok first off, yes he is an addict. He was sober for 10plus years, relapsed almost a year ago was in counseling when it happened, admitted it to his counselor when it happened. I don't know how those kinds of things are supposed to be dealt with. Not only was he dealing with things with me but things were turbulent in his life as well. I don't consider this an excuse and drugs have no place anywhere in my life. Period. He will always tell me the truth and I wont jeapordize my family either, but I have not been afraid of him doing this again, if I did I would leave him. I never have and never will put myself or my children in a situation like that. However I am also uneducated and don't know if he needed to still do something else about it.

    The porn issue - I had never reason to believe he was an addict. All the indicators I've read of an addict don't describe him. At one point he got into it as a lot of people do. I know this man cannot lie to my face. I know coming on here has made me much more paranoid, feeding the fear if you will and that's why I have become more afraid, but in going back on my experience with him, he cannot lie to me if I confront him. He confirmed that some of the things I was afriad he had done, he did not do (cyber-sex,chats, etc.) in looking at his temp int files that had not been deleted for about the last year or so, I did see many pics and videos but didn't see any indication of chatting or even of porn to an extent of...hmmm don't know what to call it, increasing the impact like abusive stuff, I never saw anything like that. His x was ok with porn, he said he was ok with it but really wasn't (more on that later). But otherwise besides his withdrawal I didn't see a lot of other strong indicators except for the occasional comment (but I make comments to him too about his body/sex style and I've never looked at porn) but that's no excuse. I will not let him off the hook so easily on it though and I do want to explore the idea there is a possibility he was addicted, however I do know now that he hasn't used it in many months and has cleared everything off his computer, doesn't delete his history, was willing to get rid of internet even... in the beginning of our relationship it was rather impulsive in a lot of ways and sex was mutually frequent. Why he did it while I was gone I don't know... however in discovering his use I demanded that he either get self-control (because I even said if he couldn't then it must be an addiction) or that I wasn't going to be with him.

    I guess I don't understand the creepiness factor in these women resembling me. I know for a fact that he's always been attracted to women that look like me (x-es, actresses) I just happened to come along and look like the women he's been attracted to before so I still don't see how it's so creepy that he would have been looking at women that look similar to me...??? Even with two of my x-es, I resembled their x-es very much. Even he is my "type", the kind of guys I have always been attracted to the most, the ones I enjoy looking at the most on tv or in movies so I just don't see how it's so weird...

    I know I have been focusing a lot on the bad issues here and I won't ignore the ones I think need to be addressed as I am finding everywhere I turn. However I will say this, this man does have integrity. Yes he lied to me (not for a year, probably about 6 months) so it hasn't been the duration of our relationship. I KNOW he CANNOT lie to my face as he could not when I confronted him, his eyes tell me EVERYTHING I need to know. He also has NEVER used the word "promise" or "swear" unless he actually and completely means it and between these two things from our conversation tonight, I know he has not gone back to it since we last addressed it. Still whether his addictive personality had something to do with it we have yet to discover that.

    To be honest I think we are just beginning to really uncover all of this and are learning too. It hasn't been an issue that's been addressed because I know he was ashamed and hasn't wanted to talk about it. I've been afraid to ask. Lately he has made a lot of effort to let me vent without getting upset and I'm telling him just how angry and upset I am about it (without screaming...) He's definitely improved where communication is concerned just on this one issue he's been reluctant. In all other aspects of his life, I see him to be a stable person, he's held the same job for almost 10 years now (I think has taken off like 2 sick days in the last 2 years), takes almost the majority of the responsibility for his son, is careful with the people he chooses to be around, has actually moved away from most friends and a half mile away from me (and we're like 35 min from the city where he was about 10 before). He participates regularly in healthy activities and is actually trying to develop new and more positive friendships in his life. He makes attempts to go to Church, always lets me know where he's going, or what he's doing, and is for the most part very respectful to me. (except where the trust issue is concerned, doesn't approach with disrespect but always got frustrated) I have known him to be consistent with many things even more so than myself...so yeah Aisha I guess I feel like a dummy in saying he doesn't express himself in other ways. Well he has shown improvement but I've been more concerned with him being attentive to me...anyway, he's a very hard and dedicated worker and besides this one issue I've never known him to be dishonest in his dealings with people and he also likes to help others with his skills. He has a very respectful relationship with his mother and is extremely responsible when it comes to finances. So I haven't seen him to be "unstable". Yes he lied to me but I think my x even did when I found porn tapes in his stuff at the beginning of our relationship but it didn't mean he was an addict...I know I sound like I'm defending him but besides this issue I have not gotten extremely alarmed about his behavior. (If anything I usually don't stick around long enough to know anyone if I see signs of complete instability) I was going to leave him when I knew of the porn issue if he didn't quit, I would never have stayed if I thought he would go back to drugs (though my trust was shaken for a while after that too). Even the other day the moment I thought he might still be doing it (using porn), I really did call him up to end it but I know he was not lying to me about what he was doing.
    Anyway, I do want to participate somehow in these programs either with him or apart from him because many people have expressed this so far.
    I will also say that if this man thinks he has an issue that he feels is a problem for him, I have seen him address it. Even though he hasn't helped me work out the problem with this one issue, in several other instances where someone even mentioned he might have a problem with something I have seen him try to find out if they are right (example, his x told him maybe he has ADD, went to psychiatrist& went on meds) In cases where we've even gone out and maybe had a little too much to drink or he's had too much, he pulls away immediately from any of those tendencies. He doesn't like to take pills often because he doesn't want to be dependent on anything. When I call him out on communication, I can see the wheels turning in self-analysis. However like I said we are just getting this issue out on the table because we haven't been able to deal with it and now we finally are...

    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Fri, 10-14-2005 - 11:52am

    Yes, I agree, this is alarming.








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Sat, 10-15-2005 - 9:33pm

    I know you feel you've become more paranoid since visiting the boards, and are feeding your fear. What you've heard is the voice of experience, the problems and issues that are involved in porn problems, whether addiction is an issue or not. Giving you none of the information you need to make intelligent choices for yourself or assuring you everything would be fine wouldn't have been helpful or wise. Some truths:
  • The porn issue: In the end it doesn't matter whether he's an addict or not. The situation is certainly more amped up if he's addicted (and he may be), but if he's not it simply means he doesn't hold the same beliefs, values and morals that you do. If that's true, he will almost certainly use porn again. You used words such as "habit" and "shame" in talking about his porn use, those are words that are associated with addictions and that is something to be acutely aware of. Porn addicts come in all shapes and sizes. Some use all forms of porn, some use only one. It doesn't make one a "worse" addict than another, just an addict with a different "drug of choice".
  • "I wont jeopardize my family either" You already have and you continue to. Choosing to be with a known addict is putting them in an environment of heightened danger and concern, no question.
  • "I KNOW he CANNOT lie to my face as he could not when I confronted him, his eyes tell me EVERYTHING I need to know. He also has NEVER used the word "promise" or "swear" unless he actually and completely means it..." Oh my, this is an extremely dangerous thing for you to think. He can, he has and he can lie to you again. If you move forward thinking that you will know whether or not he's being honest you are only fooling yourself. I'm sure you think I'm awful and negative for saying so, so I won't go further. If you attend NarAnon for families you'll hear this from those who are there as well, belive it.
  • "he lied to me (not for a year, probably about 6 months)" He stayed away from porn for the first six months of your relationship THEN went to it, knowing how you felt, how fragile you were, how much an issue this was for you? This you think is not a huge danger sign?
  • "...drugs have no place anywhere in my life. Period. He will always tell me the truth and I wont jeapordize my family either, but I have not been afraid of him doing this again, if I did I would leave him. "He used again while you were with him and you didn't leave. He used porn and you didn't leave. He knows from experience that he needn't be overly concerned that you'll leave, you've shown him that you don't.
  • "To be honest I think we are just beginning to really uncover all of this and are learning too."WE are not just uncovering this, he's known all along. You cannot work on this, focus on this, this is his problem and issue, not yours. To try and have a part in it is co-dependant behavior, which hurts, not helps the issue and is not a healthy relationship.
  • "Anyway, I do want to participate somehow in these programs either with him or apart from him " You don't have a place in his program and he has no place in yours. You cannot participate with him. "However I am also uneducated and don't know if he needed to still do something else about it." It isn't your place to find out what he should be doing. He knows what he needs to do -- at least if he's genuine about staying clean. You can't direct him, urge him, or insist that he "do what he needs to do", he has to go because he wants to not because you insist. The program only works if he wants to be there. Again, sounding very codependant. You have a lot to learn about addiction and addicts, I hope you get well educated before moving forward.


    You've called him your "knight in shining armor" and have made reference to him calling you "his Juliet". All very romantic, but do remember, Romeo and Juliet died. This is real life, not a fairy tale and fairy tales are not reality.


    Considering that you've made it clear how seriously against porn use you are, that you have previous issues that make this a serious concern for you, I am astounded that you've gone from this being a very serious issue and concern to completely putting it aside and excusing it. It seems you've jumped from one extreme to the other and neither is a healthy place to be.


    It's your life, and you are the one who decides what is right and best for you, no one makes that decision for you. No one will argue that. We can only go by what you've given us here, and respond with what we know about these issues, both from firsthand knowledge, education and what we've learned from others in these situations. We are not in the situation to see it fully, we know that. I sincerely hope this all works out for you, Quirky.







  • ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 09-21-2005
    Tue, 10-18-2005 - 12:44pm

    Hi 2nd life,
    I have a question - how do you know then when and if someone deserves a chance? I have dealt with people and their addictions with my immediate family and I have resigned myself from them because I know they do not want to change or help themselves. My father died an alcoholic after my mother left him. My sister is a drug addict/alcoholic/probable prostitute - she refuses to change and there is nothing I can do, when the chance has come up to change and she begins to she falls right back into her old lifestyle.

    I understand the concerns you have. However I also know that I am much like this man. I have not deserved the chances I've gotten at times. I have hurt people and made so many mistakes that it's a miracle I am at the point that I am. But I see desire in him to become a better person, I see him pursuing the things in life that a healthy person should. This man did lie to me by omission, but he didn't look me in the eye and say "no I'm not doing that". In the time I've known him he cannot look me in the eye and say something that is untrue because I see his eyes shifting. I was going to break up with him when I thought he was still doing it. We and even he has suggested us not being together because of the issues that have arisen because of this. He may not be directly involved in a group per-se, but he is trying to surround himself with the things a person needs to live a healthy addiction-free lifestyle. Even I after not being involved with drugs for over 15 years now had a slip with something I was really not happy with. It served as a reminder to me of who I am, where I've come from, where I'm at now and who I want to be. It reminded me that I am not perfect, invincible or faultless. It showed me what I am still capable of and made my resolve only even stronger to be more careful with myself, the friends or environments I may find myself in and what is important to me that I need to put first.
    He does agree with me that porn is wrong and that he doesn't want it in his life. However I also wonder if because I am the first person to come into his life that seems so against it while all other people have been accepting, I just don't know if he realizes the extent of the issue that it was. If he is being truthful and is trying in many different ways to be an honest and pure man does he not deserve to have the benefit of the doubt?
    I would say that I have an addictive personality. I have to be careful with my involvement in unhealthy activities. However I am a person who faces my challenges. I slip up, I screw up, I have been downright awful and unbearable to people who have loved me but I never give up trying to improve and only in my relationships have I seen just how I am and how I can change. I've only found that by people loving me am I able to understand myself or understand what it means to love even. Some people because of their lives act out in a way that is destructive to themselves and to other people. A resolve to change and be better doesn't happen overnight.
    I just need to know how one knows when someone does deserve the benefit of the doubt.

    This weekend was a time of reconnecting for us. We talked for hours and hours about many, many different things. In looking ahead we want the same things, we have the same tendencies because of the life we had but we both have overcome terrific obstacles to make the life we have now (separately). We keep tabs on our own behaviors but I feel like I do understand that tendency to fall into certain things one may not want to do but does anyway for reasons that may not even be clear to ourselves. I see genuine longing in him for good things, just as I long for them myself. I have and i am sure I may make more mistakes in trying to attain that life that I want but it never extinguishes my resolve to get there and he is the same way and his life is proof of that.

    I do see your point, or your many points but I also want to know when you are faced with someone who you believe to be genuinely trying to change and better themselves, and who is very communicative and active in doing things to try and live a life in accordance with what believes in ones heart to be right, how do you know not to believe them or that they are not worth being with?
    I do not know what his past relationship was like but it obviously was unhealthy because he let himself become in things he didn't feel were right. However, I did that too, in fact I was probably even worse than he was in some things I did. I was searching for something that I could not find in my life and was looking for it in the wrong ways.

    It is very hard for me to turn my back on someone who I love very much who I feel is trying with all their heart to be a good man. I have turned my back on people I have loved very very deeply because I saw no desire to change or help themselves but it is not this way. I cannot put into my emails the sense that I have about his genuineness or the way his eyes well up when he talks to me about the person he wants to be for me and for himself, I cannot show you what his life is like or how we interact. However, it seems to improve and not get worse. I find us growing closer together and becoming more open as opposed to growing apart and becoming more closed off. I cannot explain the way he looks at me or the way he says things to me when he says he does not want to hurt me and how he is sorry for what he has done to hurt my trust in him.
    His track record says he doesn't deserve another chance; my track record says I'm irresponsible and untrustworthy too in certain ways, but does that mean giving up? Should someone have given up on me? Should I give up on him?

    I am a screwed up individual but I know the struggle of what it means to fight within yourself with things you feel are not right and what you want that you feel is right. I feel sorry for some of the people that were in my life, I truly am. I have hurt people and put people through hell but I want to be a good person and have only learned by my mistakes.

    Maybe I am making a mistake by being with this man, but I also feel like I know his struggle and the light that you keep climbing towards at the end of the uphill tunnel. I have spoken with my therapist and she doesn't warn me like many people are doing, maybe it's because I can talk and tell her more things that are going on. Wouldn't she be telling me not to be with him also? I have been with a man who was so put together, Ihad no reason to doubt him in any way but in my heart, he couldn't understand me, I couldn't understand him. He had no significant struggles, he didn't battle with himself the way I do and in the end it was a dead relationship. He had everything a woman could and would ever want in a man, however he was lacking so much in his understanding of me or how to deal with me, which I understand. At times I felt like I was just the permanent screw up because he was so "good", he was like a father and not a partner. He would say things like "when will you learn... when will you understand... when am I going to teach you..." In this relationship, I see faults, I see failings, I see imperfections that I also have, but I also see a desire of changing, of improving, of heartfelt emotion, I see a courage to face challenges, or shortcomings, I see a person who is SO not perfect, like myself, who has made the same or similar mistakes as me, but whose life is also testimony to the life we are working to achieve...
    It's the intention of the heart that I am concerned with and the strength and evidence of the person and their life that I am looking at here, I have respect for where this man came from compared to where he is now just as he does for me, but unfortunately it also means we have much more significant weaknesses than other people...

    Maybe I am just naive to liars, but I am not naive. I obviously don't know much of what a stable life is but the persons I have tried to befriend or surround myself with in attaining some semblance of normalcy are usually the ones that come from similar backgrounds who are trying to attain the same thing...how do I know when and if this man does or does not deserve a chance for my love?

    iVillage Member
    Registered: 10-13-2004
    Tue, 10-18-2005 - 5:39pm

    >>how do I know when and if this man does or does not deserve a chance for my love?<<

    In brief....

    When the bad stuff emotionally outweighs the good. When you find yourself spending more time worrying about the bad than enjoying the great times.

    hope this helps

    Dress Up Games, Doll Makers and Cartoon Dolls @ The Doll Palace
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Wed, 10-19-2005 - 5:15am

    This is not at all what you asked for, Quirky, but I'd be negligent if I didn't point it out. You said, "I have dealt with people and their addictions with my immediate family and I have resigned myself from them because I know they do not want to change or help themselves. My father died an alcoholic after my mother left him. My sister is a drug addict/alcoholic/probable prostitute - she refuses to change and there is nothing I can do, when the chance has come up to change and she begins to she falls right back into her old lifestyle. ", but in an earlier post you said you were uneducated about addiction. Sounds to me like you've had a very upfront and personal kind of addiction education. You know full well how hard it can take hold, how it can throw lives in the toilet, what it can do to people. Here's my warning, and please take it seriously: The very fact that you have been close to addictions, lived with it, been brought up around it and been affected by it (whether you realized it or not) puts you at an incredibly higher risk to land yourself in an addiction relationship. Rather than learn not to be around it, what happens is addictive people are comfortable to you, you know how to act and react around them because you watched it, learned it and lived it growing up. Girls whose father's were alcoholic, abusive, etc., tend to wind up in those same kinds of relationships. Not because they were happy living that way but because those are the kinds of relationships they're comfortable in. They know how to act there because they've lived it, watched their mother's play the role and rehearsed the same role for years. They want healthy relationships, but they don't know how to act in them, they're not comfortable in them. Understand, this is not a conscious realization or decision. I can't tell you how many women have posted saying, "I swore I'd never end up in a relationship like this and oh God, I'm right where I swore I'd never be". No matter how hard you tried to get him to show you love and warmth, you didn't get what you wanted. Nuances attract you that you aren't even aware of. A very common phenomenon is the subconscious attempt to recreate the past to finally "get it right". For instance, say your father was cold and uncaring. You meet a guy who has some cold, uncaring tendencies, you're attracted, but you don't really know why and you certainly don't see the coldness. What's happening is your subconscious is making the connection between this guy and your father and sees this as a chance to win this guy over, get that love and warmth and finally fix that old outstanding issue. Obviously, if we could see these things playing out, we wouldn't do them, but that's not how it works. Being acutely aware of your issues and therefore, your vulnerabilities helps. You would very likely recognize that even though you're attracted, it's not a healthy attraction for you and one you should avoid. Your past should have red flags wildly flying and warning sirens screaming loudly. It's no coincidence. Neither is it a coincidence that your first marriage was an addictive one as well. "I understand the concerns you have. However I also know that I am much like this man. "

    A while back we had a member, Pandabu who posted about an addiction problem, her ex was an alcoholic and her current husband was a gambling addict. She was wrestling with how she had landed back into another addictive relationship. There were some very interesting and insightful responses by a member named Doubleblade. As I recall, Panda did not at all agree with Doubleblade's assessment of the situation and argued quite a bit agianst it. But, a couple of months later came back to tell Doubleblade that in addiction-based therapy she'd come to realize that Doubleblade's assessment had been exactly right. Your boyfriend may not be an alcoholic or a gambler, but an addict is an addict and the person who chooses an addict is the same as well. Just swap the names of the addictions and everything remains the same. You might be interested to read the posts, especially those from Doubleblade:
    Addiction problem - again
    Hey Doubleblade - You were right

    Having gotten through all that, I'd like to comment on your statement about your sister: "she refuses to change and there is nothing I can do, when the chance has come up to change and she begins to she falls right back into her old lifestyle. "Bingo. In your previous post you kept saying "we'll work on his addiction, I'll go to meetings with him" (not exact quotes by any means), but as I said, and as you demonstrated you already know. YOU can't do anything. The changes are up to her. Her success or failure is strictly hers. If you're thinking that as they gain more success you're more able to help, stop right there. Addiction is the disease and the responsibility of the addict from beginning to end. You can't help him, stop him or keep him straight whether he's an active addict or has been clean for ten years. It's still all the addict's -- every bit of it.


    "He does agree with me that porn is wrong and that he doesn't want it in his life. "Either he doesn't really believe it's wrong or he's addicted to it, one or the other. If he didn't feel it was right, he wouldn't have used it, period. If he knew it was wrong but couldn't stop himself, he's an addict and needs active treatment. It's obvious and it's basic. We don't do things alone, in the privacy of our own homes that we don't believe is right, unless we can't stop ourselves from doing it, which means we have an addiction. That's reality.


    The lying. I get the feeling you think I think you're stupid, naive, blind or the like when it comes to this. That's not it. Not it at all. I know I can't drive this home for you so I don't know why I'm saying it, but here I am. Addicts lie. Incredibly well. You can't tell, I can't tell, their mother's can't tell, the Pope can't tell. Believe me. They can be the most upstanding person on the face of the earth, the most honest, most ethical people. People you believe, trust and admire. When it comes to their addiction, they are consummate liars. It's not you, you just can't tell. If your boyfriend is addicted and you believe you can tell if he's being honest or not, you are being naive and you are going to get taken for a ride. My comment was not about you or your intelligence, it was about addicts.


    Your therapist, is she trained and licensed in addiction therapy? If not, she's not qualified to help you in these areas and will likely cause you more harm and damage in these areas. "Regular", individual therapy is very different than addiction. It can't be dealt with the same way, and without the training addictive behavior isn't recognized. I think I said all that before?


    I know you have a lot of past that you've alluded to but nothing more, so I'm only able to speak to what I know. You seem to be likening your life/people skills with his addiction issues. They are not the same and are not comparable. You can learn to change how you handle yourself, make changes that become habits and have a better way of handling things become second nature to you. Your "slips" are not addict slips. They might have you treat someone unkindly or the like, but they don't have you using drugs or have the potential to start the kind of downward spiral your sister is on. He will always be an addict and will always have to monitor that. You say he's not seeking a group, most will tell you (recovering addicts included) that without active involvement in recovery-based group you'll likely fail. The fact that he slipped a year ago and still doesn't seek the help and support that will help him stay clean should concern you. Certainly, everyone is an individual and no one thing works for everyone, but what did he do to get clean in the first place? Treatment and groups, I'll bet. He wasn't going to groups and he slipped, no matter how many years were between getting clean and the slip. In the early days, treatment got him clean and groups helped him maintain it. That hasn't changed. This is something you can't mandate, push or urge, but you sure should be paying close attention and deciding whether this is a situation you think is safe and healthy for yourself and your children to be involved in.


    One more point that I know you're not going to get, but I'll say it again anyway. Whether he's addicted to porn or not doesn't matter. It will be a problem for you again. If he's addicted to it he's not admitting it and that says it isn't going to go away, just like your sister, just like your dad. An active addiction doesn't just vanish on its own, it takes treatment. If he's not addicted, he used because he enjoys it and doesn't really agree with you that it's wrong. Here's where you're totally not going to see it. People who do things because they like them don't stop using them. Why would they stop simply because someone else doesn't like it? If he thought shopping was wrong and you kind of enjoyed it, you might agree to stop, but to keep yourself away from something that you don't think is wrong, that you like? How will it hurt him if you shop when he's not around? Maybe just a peek into Nordstom once in a while. If you don't agree, you're not going to stay away. It's not unusual that he's swearing he'll never use porn again. He's swearing that because he doesn't want to lose you, I'm certain he genuinely believes he won't use it again. But as the relationship continues, the danger and concern fades, the relationship gets back to comfortable and everything feels very stable, no concerns about a break up. That's when he'll pick it up again. It won't seem like such a big deal, he'll just look while you're not around, what harm can it do? This is reality and I know you don't see it.


    I have friends who confronted the porn issue. He used it, she didn't like it. She told him so, he agreed to keep it out of her sight, not look when she's around, and that's fine with her, end of problem. It isn't that she doesn't want him to use it, it's that she doesn't want to have to deal with it. That ended the problem for them. That won't work for you though, you've made it clear porn has no place in your home or in your life in any way.


    What we're trying to do is save you from a lot of heartache and trauma in your life. It's your life to live and you make the choices. Please consider the reality and separate that from your emotions. You're choosing for your children and for yourself. Love will not get your through this. Take some time to weigh what's real vs. what you'd like, what you hope, what you think, what you want. Deal with this on reality.







    ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together



    Edited 10/19/2005 5:25 am ET by cl-2nd_life








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-26-2003
    Wed, 10-19-2005 - 5:42am

    how do you know then when and if someone deserves a chance?


    Time. Time and observation. Step away from the situation and give him the chance to prove that he means what he says and is willing to carry it out. Trust isn't regrown overnight and it shouldn't be. Blindly diving into trusting someone who's proven themselves to be untrustworthy is not exhibiting healthy self-protection. It means you're putting yourself back in the face of danger with the very person who proved to be the danger to you. He says he's seen the light and won't do it again, okay, now he needs to prove it.


    Set some healthy barriers and boundaries for the sake of you and your children. Make some agreements between you. If he proves himself trustworthy (say eight or more months down the road) then you can decide to take the relationship off ice, if he's not followed through or stayed away from porn, then you're done.


    But here again Quirky, we run into that niggling reality detail. If he's addicted, sorry and won't ever do it again aren't going to work and if he's not addicted, he's not being honest about his beliefs and he most certainly will use again.


    What continues to puzzle me is this guy has continually bucked on this, refused to take responsibility, been angry at hearing the affect it's had on you and yet, in the course of a few days, all this has changed, he's seen the light, and you belive it's for real? danger sign, huge danger sign.







    ~ cl-2nd_life

    "You can't control the length of your life,
    but you can control the width and depth."

    ~ Author unknown

    my signature exchange partner:

    Living Together



    Edited 10/19/2005 5:46 am ET by cl-2nd_life








    "Ignoring the facts
    does not change the facts"
    iVillage Member
    Registered: 03-25-2003
    Wed, 10-19-2005 - 9:45am

    Basically my assessment has become that she doesn't want to end the relationship at all and is looking for whatever reason she can to justify keeping it going. Which, since it's her life, she has every right to do so.

    I know the hope of hearing what you want to hear and finally! thinking that the guy "gets it" and that things will change and get better. I've been doing that in my marriage for years. And the process will make anyone very cynical (which my DH is HATING now). NOW, all these years later, I think maybe this time is different. But you know what? I'm not counting on it AT ALL til I see it happen for quite awhile. My agreement with my DH this time was I would give it 6 months to see if it's a real START to a change or not. He's never been able to sustain it past 8 weeks before.... but it took a lot of trial and error to get to this point. I wish I could save the OP the work and time....but she wants THIS guy. And she's willing to take him as he is.

    Jen

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    iVillage Member
    Registered: 09-21-2005
    Wed, 10-19-2005 - 10:56am

    Jen & 2nd life,
    What do you suggest that I do then? I know you've said try to set up boundaries...

    I hear what you all are saying, but I do love this man. I don't want to be miserable down the road or find out things I won't like. He continues to assure me, even when I don't ask now that he isn't doing anything.

    I know that I do not have the greatest ability to find healthy relationships but I'm trying. I have never been with anyone who is perfect in any way nor do I think anyone I am ever with will ever be perfect...I would like to hope that this man is someone who I can grow with, who because of the desire in our heart to be good people we will be of the same heart and mind...and I guess knowing that he doesn't think it's right (porn) gives me consolation.

    If he is being honest in saying he didn't think it was right, I don't know that he realizes it may have been part of his addictive personality, but he has always been open to knowing more about himself and to trying to be a better person.

    Just someone tell me, what can I do without losing this person? Should I break up with him for now or something? Should I tell him to go back to groups or I won't be with him? I don't know what he needs to do in order to show me he's for real...he has tried in other ways to do so...I don't want an unhealthy relationship...I don't want to be blindsided, or lied to...I don't care if he's not perfect, I just want someone who knows me, understands me, and I want to know and understand them, I want someone to grow with and learn with and he's the first person I feel I've been able to do that with...

    I want my cake and want to eat it too I guess. I just really do love this man and I respect him in many ways and I know he loves me too and respects me. After all things that have been going on lately, I see both of us making a lot more effort of trying to resolve these issues. He went totally and completely out of his way this past weekend for my b-day and the poor guy is strapped cuz he doesn't make a lot. He took me to Niagara Falls, we stayed in bed & breakfasts, he bought me gifts and dedicated the entire time to me...he paid for everything...we talked about things for hours, we talked about everything on our minds, asked our questions...I know he does love me and is attempting to improve himself to show me that. He is never mean or cruel or condescending (as my x was frequently). He is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but his heart really is in the right place. I am finding slowly that in a lot of ways we do bring out the good in each other. I don't want to be blind!!! I really don't, I don't want to be disappointed down the road, but this is the man that I want in my life and if it takes effort to get to a point where we know this is going to work then I know both of us are willing to do that, we just have to know what to do! So tell me what to do, tell me what we can do, in practical ways. He really is a kind and wonderful man and I know I've bitched a lot but I am lucky in many ways to have him. I have become a better person because of him and I'd like to believe he's become a better person because of me...I don't want to lose him and I know he doesn't want to lose me either but we need concrete means of making healthy relationship because I know that is what we both want. I'll even give you his email so you can give him suggestions!!! :o)
    I don't want another failed relationship! I know he doesn't either! We both are trying and I feel like both of us just don't know what else to do to make the best of this! I know he won't run away from me suggesting things to him and I certainly won't because I believe we both want to work together.
    You're right, I don't want to lose him, I never want to lose him and I know he doesn't want to lose me. Besides our faults we see the fulfillment of everything either of us has ever wanted in another person. Neither of us wants to let this go and I believe we are both willing to do what it takes to show the other person that we are committed to them.
    Yes 2nd life things have changed a lot in the last few days. In being on here and being in therapy I have not been afraid to voice myself anymore as I have because I thought that I was being naive or prudish in confronting this issue. I've approached it in the wrong way for several months now but have found other ways of confronting it. He has opened up to me a lot about it in the last few days in a way he hasn't the entire time we've been together and I am letting him know my concerns and I think even making him more aware in a way he may not have been before. It's not that he's seen the light but the way we were approaching everything I think was wrong and I think in talking to people it's making it clear the right way of approaching it. Even in just discussing things, I find myself removing myself from a lot of the codependency habits I was getting into. I find myself more detached in a healthy way and letting go in a way that I realize he is going to make his own decisions no matter how much I am up his *ss. But he's also been opening up to me in a way that he hasn't done before allowing me some degree of peace.

    Look everyone, I am scared. I am afraid to trust him. I don't want to be involved with anyone who is going to be dangerous to me or my children. I have mistrusted even those who probably deserved trust because I think everyone has a dark side and that's tough for me...I love this man but I want to do things the right way and I don't want to be one of these stubborn women who just justifies everything he does in order to make it all seem ok. If indeed he is being truthful with me I want to give him that chance, but I don't want to be taken to the cleaners either...
    (btw, I am uneducated when it comes to the rehabilitation process of drug addiction cuz I haven't been around anyone who's been rehabilitated, I've only seen them in the denial stage the entire way through....)
    I'm emotionally exhausted in dealing with this. I want this to be a good thing for us and I hope with all my heart that it can be. He is such a beautiful man to me...I have never experienced the joy or the happiness that I do with him with anyone I've ever been with. Besides the porn issue (which is no small issue at all) he is someone that I find great peace in being with and when we have no dividing issue, we are the best of friends...I have never ever met anyone remotely close to the qualities I admire about him and I don't want to lose him if he is being honest with me. I know that I wouldn't even trust the next person to come along either - I see things in a "guilty until proven innocent" way unfortunately.
    Ok, I gotta go. Please help me out here ladies. Besides this issue, this man is the man of my dreams. I don't know how or what to do to make a relationship healthy; even in finding a person who was perfect by society's standards, it just didn't work AT ALL...there has to be some way through the murkiness if both people are willing right?