Hoping for insight.........(m)
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| Sun, 11-06-2005 - 10:46pm |
.....from someone in a long term marriage/relationship, or someone knowledgeable.
I'll try to condense the story...lol. My husband and I have been married nearly 18 years. The first four years were spent in the military (him), and they were stressful to due his duties, but stable. And we were happy. Pretty poor (lol), but happy.
Lots of stuff has happened in between - he got out of the military, went to work, etc, etc, etc. As far as I knew, we were always happy for the most part.
8 years into our marriage, he confessed to an indiscretion that occurred during his time overseas in the military. We cried together, and I told him I forgave him. And I really did. We had managed to spend 8 happy years since, so even though I was in pain, I wrote it off as an immature, isolated act, and we proceeded. I don't think he ever had another episode like that exactly, but he is somewhat of a flirt. He was taking college classes, and I found notes that he had exchanged with girls in class. They were flirtatious notes, but didn't seem to lead to anything physical. I did confront him about some of them, but he stated that I was over-reacting. I convinced myself that he's just a flirt, and that I'd just have to deal with it.
The college years passed, we had another baby, and we both matured a great deal. Everything seemed wonderful. We led a crazy busy life, but I believed we were happy. Our kids were involved in things, we were involved in those same clubs, activities, etc. We had lots of great friends that we interacted with, and we even managed an annual romantic "escape" to a certain spot that we love.
A few months ago, his work took him away for a major project. The project is lucrative, so it's not one that he could easily turn down. For the first few weeks, we talked on the phone obsessively, and missed each other very, very much. I took the kids for a visit, and it was nice. Then, I went for a visit alone. He was busy with work, but it was still nice. We managed to spend SOME quality time.
Then after that, things got kind of weird. He was planning a visit home, but when he got off the plane, he immediately acted strange. He normalized after a little while, so I blew it off. We were intimate that night, and everything seemed fine. I figured he had just been nervous about coming home. But the next day, everything seemed weird again. That night, I couldn't stand it any longer, so I asked him point blank if everything was ok. After a little coaxing, he finally said that for the last 10 years or so, he feels that we have just been "good friends" and not a married couple. When I asked if he still loved me, he actually paused and said, "I Love you.....I just don't know that I'm IN love with you." My heart sank. I was like, "What?? Where is THIS coming from??" Then he proceeded to tell me how he feels that my level of affection had decreased to the point where he just felt that we were friends. I asked him, But what about all our trips together? The places we've gone? Our plans and dreams? So he admits that there were *times* that things felt good, but not ALL the time.
Ok, I'm not buying this. There have been times RECENTLY where we would sit and talk, holding hands over the table, and he would have that special look in his eyes that just radiates emotion. Plus, when he first went away, he would say (on the phone)"You have NO idea how much I miss you...." and he would sneak and make babysitting arrangements, then surprise me with the news that I was flying out for a few days.
Now if you're thinking "another woman," I've got to say....it really isn't likely. Given the circumstances of his job, women are few, and the ones there are quite a bit older. Plus, I am practically always able to reach him by cell phone, and he never seems "caught" if you know what I mean. PLUS, he claims to really want to fix things. He still calls a couple of times a day, and we talk. He even tells me that he loves me before he hangs up. And yes, I do still love him, very much. I know he wasn't always such a good boy, but I'd like to think he's grown up a bit in recent years. He says that he is "Hopeful" in regards to our working things out. I'll tell you - this guy is unique. He works so hard, that he works himself into a frenzy and causes himself a TREMENDOUS amount of stress. So stressed in fact, that he gets migraines.
If you've hung this far, thank you SO MUCH.
So these are the possibilities I'm thinking. I would LOVE input/advice.
a. Maybe he's (unconsciously) resentful of me for getting to spend all the time with our kids. (he's crazy about them!)
b. Maybe he's applying a defense mechanism. If his feelings are "off," then he doesn't have to miss me while he's away? That would certainly explain why this came up so suddenly and recently.
The main thing I'd like to know is this: Could it be perfectly normal for a man to question his feelings about his partner after 18 years under stressful conditions, but eventually come back around? (If anyone knows for a fact this can happen, PLEASE let me know)
Part of me just wants to fix this no matter the cost....I do love him. Another part of me is angry! If I did withdraw my affection at times, it was no wonder! It was HARD WORK getting past that indiscretion, plus all the flirty notes. I've stood by and waited patiently during his military time, and now during a very demanding career. I care for our children alone while he is away at this time, and I just can't believe that he has come up with this. Worst of all, we have to try and fix this over long distance and the weekends that we are together. Not easy!
Like I said, if you got this far. You are an angel. I am so anxious for advice on this. Thanks in advance for any that you can offer. My heart has felt like it's had a knife plunged into it for about a week now.
Thanks again!

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I think for right now there really isn't much you can do about it, he's long distance stressed to the max (working and exhausted) he wouldn't have much left for anything else.
Why won't he consider counseling? I would say it's a pretty safe bet that a problem that's ten years in the making isn't going to fix without professional help. I would also suspect a big reason he doesn't want to go to a therapist is he doesn't want to face up to the affairs he's had in the past. I get the feeling you don't categorize the note passing as an emotional affair; if the flirting didn't go both ways, then perhaps it wasn't, but it was certainly inappropriate and a breech of your relationship. Often, a good way to gauge whether it's appropriate behavior or not is to ask him if he'd be okay with you doing the same with another man. If he says "no", you know even he doesn't think it's acceptable or appropriate behavior.
I still say there's a lot more to this than he's letting on. You may have pushed him to admit the reason, but the answer he gave isn't very plausible, it strongly indicates a deception, poorly fabricated (as though he had to come up with it as you were pushing for it) in an attempt to keep from telling the truth. I think you need to get to the bottom of it, I think until you do, you won't be able to work on the real problem, and if you're not working on the real problem, you're only spinning your wheels.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
And his dream could easily have been guilt induced. I think you're obsessed with this because you can't rationalize it, and you can't rationalize it because it doesn't add up -- it doesn't make sense. When you get the truth, you'll understand, until then, you'll continue to try and make sense out of something that doesn't make sense. Keep asking him questions and don't accept the answers until they make sense.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Good morning all;
2nd life - what you're saying makes sense, I'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt without being in complete denial myself. Tough, tough, tough spot. The reason I'm skeptical to think it's a recent affair, is that during the time I visited him I actually accompanied him at work, and believe me, the days are long, and there is hardly any time or opportunity for such things. And like I mentioned before, I'm practically always able to raise him on his cell phone, and he always seems willing and able to talk.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not totally dismissing that as a possibility. While an affair is not likely, I realize that ANYTHING is possible. Especially, like you said, with his history.
Just a bit of info about the "affair" that occurred in the beginning: We were both very young, in our second year of marriage when he was on an overseas tour of duty. He and some other (extremely intoxicated) servicemen wandered into one of those spots that 'caters' to servicemen, and in their drunken stupor, gave in to peer pressure and dares from each other to "go for it." My two best friends' husbands were right there with him, doing the same thing. It sounded to me like a meaningless bit of cheap sex, and he said that if you lined up two of those girls side by side, he wouldn't have been able to pick which one it was the next morning. At the time he admitted it, he called himself "Drunk and Stupid," and he cried so hard that he shook violently from head to toe. That is NOT something he normally would do, so I believed that he was genuinely regretful - especially since it had been eight full years, and he was still that upset.
You might be right on the note passing thing. Maybe I'm NOT classifying it as an emotional affair, because no, it did not seem to go both ways. The girl was asking him for advice about a guy...wondering if she should continue to call the guy or not. He kept making flirtatious comments, but still she would press on with the request for advice. She didn't exactly respond to his comments, so it was almost as though there were two different conversations happening there. In the end, he finally told her to "go for it" and try to call, and if he doesn't answer or return her call this time, then maybe he's just an "old flirt like me." And the other note, I had found wadded up in his pants pocket while doing laundry was where he just wrote, "You are giving a very decent view of your thong in the back..." to where the girl had simply replied, "thanks.." Barely a conversation at all. (pretty sloppy of him to leave the note in his pants, don't you think?)
And THAT sort of behavior goes along with what Jen suggested - it's almost as though he was trying to get them to flirt with HIM even though one of them was interested in someone else. To me, this example gives a great deal of credibility to what Jen has suggested.
He won't consider counseling because he feels that in counseling, the guy always gets the blame.
One thing just occurred to me while I was typing, and I'd like to throw it out there: At the beginning of the summer, I was dianosed with renal cell cancer and had to have a kidney removed. The operation took an hour longer than predicted, and my husband was reported to become very frantic about the delay, and I was told by all present that he was pacing the floor frantically, and approaching every medical person that walked by about "what's happening in there." Once in recovery, he took a full two weeks off from work and sat by my bedside and refused to leave. He would barely eat, and he bathed in my patient bathroom. This was only about 3 months ago.
So see why I'm so confused when he says he questions his feelings?? I just want to turn off the 'ache' for a while somehow. Ugh!
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~~This is why I get men counselors when DH and I do go. That way he doesn't feel like it's 2 women ganging up on him. Though my first reaction to this is that he knows there is something "not right" with him and he doesn't want to deal with it.
While men deal with stress differently than women, I think his reaction to your surgery and all was also a smidge over the top. Especially once you were in recovery and doing well, to not leave your room... AND with kids at home to boot. That just strikes me as over the top. And then to be bringing all this up 3 months later? You are still healing from the surgery and dealing with the diagnosis.
As an aside, I'm sorry to hear about your renal cell carcinoma. My MIL was diagnosed over 2 years ago and had a kidney removed but the tumor was 11 cm and had already escaped the sack around the kidney. For the last year plus she's been getting treatments for it because it spread in the year since they removed it to the next scan. But like I said, her tumor was HUGE. I hope that you do very well and that they caught it early and got it all.
I can't blame you for wanting to turn off the ache. I think I would seriously consider counseling for you, so you can deal with your DH's tantrums (they are at least emotional ones) and I would consider asking DH to go by himself if he doesn't want to go to couples counseling.
Jen
(((HUGS))) to you!
This isn't an advisory reply....I don't qualify! Well maybe one little thing, a weekly date night? We have one- we have to go somewhere together, just us, once a week. We don't have money to fling around, but just getting out of the house together helps us a lot!!!!
We are military. I know how deployments are, trusting him while he's away for months at a time. DH is gone right now.
I'm sending P&PT to your way!
Chin_up, you're totally missing what I'm saying. An affair doesn't have to have happened within the timeframe that he's been gone, it could have happened earlier and the guilt's beginning to wear on him, just like it did before. I'll also tell you that it's entirely possible that he is currently involved in an affair. I understand that there's no time for a physical affair, he could easily be having an emotional affair. An emotional affair could easily take place over the phone and/or internet. As you said, he's always accessible by phone. I thought I'd provided you with links about emotional affairs, in case I didn't I'll post them again:
Is It Cheating?
Is it just friends or infidelity?
Maybe it's that you don't consider words, communications about feeling for each other, descriptions of sex acts, as infidelity, but most do. IMO, it is very much a violation of your relationship. An emotional affair could easily make him feel every bit as guilty as a physical one and could make him every bit as distant as well. As the articles I linked describe, feelings grow and get in the way of the feelings you have about your partner, just like a physical affair.
Frankly, I'm truly surprised that you think the communication he had with the college girl as no big deal. Good for her that she wasn't interested, but doesn't it alarm and upset you that he'd come on to another woman? To tell her he loved the thong shot? That would be like you telling a guy you admire the bulge in his pants. You think that's okay? Harmless flirtation? Or is it that if the guy doesn't show interest and take it further it's "harmless". I suggest to you that the fact your husband could communicate this message with this girl says he's very capable of doing it again, may well have done it both before and since. Remember, he saw it as no big deal, thought you were making too much of it when you approached him with it. If he thinks it's no big deal, he certainly has no problem doing it again, and if he continues (and you have every reason to suspect he has with his history and his attitude) he'll almost certainly find some woman who'll take the bait and respond in kind. Whether or not this college girl continued the flirtation or not is not an issue, the fact that your husband would do it at all and would see it as no big deal should have you very concerned.
I agree with Jen in that his reaction to your surgery was over the top, and again, guilt could very easily be the reason. He certainly seemed to be "paying" for something. I also agree with Jen in suspecting the reason he's against therapists is he doesn't want to be faced with what he's done (known and unknown). He'd rather keep it hidden and "work" on your problem without qualified help. Honestly, I don't know what kind of progress you'll be able to make without getting to the root of the problem (glossing it over and trying to proceed without getting to the root won't resolve anything and won't allow any real rebuilding). I also don't think you'll be able to make any real progress or changes without qualified help of a licensed therapist or counselor.
I think "giving him the benefit of the doubt" when you know it's bull isn't helpful. It allows him to continue the lie and doesn't open up a pathway for real work by working on the real problem. How can you effectively work on a problem when you don't know what it is?
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Edited 11/8/2005 9:41 pm ET by cl-2nd_life
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
April....thanks so much for the P&PT!! I wholeheartedly accept, and return the favor!
Also, I'd like to say that I hope my story did not discourage you in anyway, with you being a military wife. Being separated is hard enough without hearing such stories.
I really appreciate your post. ((Hugs)) right back!
Jen,
I am so sorry to hear about your MIL. I do hope that her treatments are successful, and that she can return to a normal life eventually. They do think they got all of mine when they removed the kidney, but I will have to return once per year for x-rays and further testing. I'll have to do that for five years.
Very good point you brought up about choosing a male counselor. Definitely something to ponder..
No worries here! I knew what I was getting into! I enjoy the independence!
Thanks for the P&PT and hugs....I'd never turn those down!!
Can I add?
There is only so much of the story you can convey in writing. The fact is--you guys have been married 18 yrs! WOW! So, I believe the counselor is definitely in order. I read that he didn't want to, but the fact is if you insist upon it, he'll probably cave in? He said he wants to work on your marriage, right? Use that leverage!
DH and I will be going to couseling when he comes home, eventhough we've worked through most of our problems already. Call it pre-marriage counseling happening a little late. We had a whirlwind romance...Wouldn't change that for anything, but we need to get realistic with each other! Enough about me.
From what you've written, the problems sound like they can be worked out. My hubby's "we're just roomates" complaint was fixed with a date night, but I'm sure since
I know. you're right. :(
Actually, the college note thing upset me a great deal, both times. I guess I was just trying to reduce the seriousness of it to make myself feel better? I had so wanted to believe that he had grown out of that sort of thing at this point in our life, because we've gone through so much since that time, and had some honest-to-goodness great times.
What's a girl to do when she's invested 18 years in a marriage, still loves the guy, and just wants to believe that he'll eventually grow up. I've started to imagine life single again (should this not work out), and frankly, it's very difficult to imagine. Oh I'm sure I'd survive, but would this heart-wrenching pain ever cease? Despite everything, I still find myself desperately hoping that we can work it out. He swears that it WILL work out - we just need to find a way to reconnect. We do have a date night scheduled. He'll be flying in the night before Thanksgiving, and we'll be staying over at a hotel near the airport for the evening, before joining the kids and everyone on Thanksgiving day. I have no idea how to 'plan' this event. Not sure if I should go for a romantic evening or what. I just want to avoid any tension. We won't have long together, I just hope it can be nice.
Maybe I should listen to you and Jen, and pursue counseling alone. How do you start that sort of thing? Does it require a referral? Does health insurance usually cover it? I've got to find a way to stop this hurting. I'm tired of it! I'm putting on a happy face for my kids, but it's hard, and getting even harder. I know I've taken up my fair share of time on this board - I do appreciate all of your input. I've had nowhere else to turn, because I do NOT want our friends and extended family members in our private business. So THANK YOU ladies for rising to the occasion and offering your valuable advice. As you know, I have a LOT to ponder.
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