Lying: When is enough, enough?
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| Tue, 01-03-2006 - 5:15pm |
I have a dilemma.
DH and I have been married for 15 years. We have one son, four years old. Our marriage went through many rough spots, from addiction to lack of passion and emotional detachment.
After all these things, finally my DH had two affairs. After the second one my son and I moved out and to make matters worse, I slept with DH's best friend. He ditched the women and the best friend and we reconciled after counseling. While I was still reeling from his indiscretions, I gave it my all to make it work out for the sake of our son. I did and do still love DH, it's just different now that I know how we were supposed to be for the last 15 years but missed out on.
Several months later, I learned that he had been having lunches with a single gal he met a long time ago (while we were married). Before I confronted him, I spoke with her and learned the usual truth--she did not know he was married. It happened that one day he was supposed to meet her for lunch she decided she wasn't interested in him "that way" and cancelled. After she cancelled, he called me for lunch.
Anyways, I finally called him on it and he said he would move out. He hasn't mentioned it since (he has been travelling on business for a month) and he continues to talk about our future (moving, vacations) as if nothing happened. He does say he is having a hard time dealing with my sleeping with his friend. I am at a point now where I understand he can have a hard time but it is time to move on. I managed to get over him sleeping with two strangers and am still working on him maintaining a secret "friend" relationship with another one.
I made an appointment with our marriage counselor but wanted to pose this question to you.
At what point during marriage does lying and deceit grant you permission to divorce? Especially if you have a child? Am I morally obligated to remain married and keep on trying for the sake of my son?
Besides not being able to trust my husband, otherwise we have a picture perfect marriage and DH is a wonderful father. So I am not sure when to draw the line. Sounds like a no-brainer but after 15-years, it requires more thought.
Thanks in advance,
Robin, mom to Jesse

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At what point during marriage does lying and deceit grant you permission to divorce? Never, immediately or anywhere in between.
You see - you're not looking for a successful marriage. You're looking for a good reason for this to fail - and so you seek it out. I know you'd disagree but it's the honest truth.
Neither of you are wanting a partnership based in respect, admiration, trust, and acceptance of yourselves as individuals - and thus the other as an individual as well.
You're both wnating this union to make you what you're not, and provide you with what you cannot get on your own........tangible and intangible elements.
You married an addict - having been one...one of the many major stumblings blocks out of addiction is the dissolution of the "justification/rationalization and fault/blame=solutions" reasoning patterns. He's obviously never ceased to utilize that pattern in full.
All his life - he's followed his feelings as used them as facts, goals, and calls to action. That has "entitled" him to do whatever feels good at the time - and find a reason he was entitled to do it afterwards - only if he is caught.
This has been in existence throughout your entire relationship, marriage and parenthood experience.
If he doesn't need to not utilize this dysfunctional thinking pattern in order to remain clean....he won't - it's a very convenient pattern, it enable syou to do wahtever you feel like doing. Your feelings are your values in his world - and values justify and entitle a person to their actions, decisions, words, thoughts, ideas, and desires. So his sense of right and wrong - is directly proprtion to how he feels, which is transitional because that is what feelings are.
What you're asking him to "understand and accept" is that despite for 15 years you've tolerated him doing wahtever he felt like and you've "dealt with teh results of it" - you're not going to do that any longer.
If you and the hcild are of no value to him as entities and individuals - then he has no reson to choose change and the emotional and mental chaos that will cause him for years - in order to retain the benefits and alliance of either or both of you.
It'd be like marrying a spaniard, living in Spain.......knowing he has a mistress becuase it is the custom. Bringing him to the US and stating "in our society that isn't acceptable and you won't do it". You can take the man out of the country - but you can't take the culture out of the man.
But if you're expecting this not to repeat - notice the pattern. I want to use drugs - I do. I want to have affairs - I do. I want to spend money - I do. I want to go fishing - I do. I want to quit my job - I do. I want to ignore you - I do.
The entire marriage has had one person in it - him - and one benefits and services provider - you. HIs needs, wants, priorities, feelings, actions, goals, and thoughts - they've been yours - you've adopted them - you've attempted ot avert them alleviate the results of them, change the pattern of them - and you cannot do it.
They're his...not yours. He doesn't attempt to change you - he simply does whatever he wants. You stay - you go - that's not his to control, he knows it and doesn't attempt it. You being like you are - accommodating and providing - facilitates him. Make alot of demands - and he'll refuse to comply. And if you issue an ultimatum - change or you lose me - he'll let you know "don't let the door hit your butt on the way out".
He didn't get with you becuase he had to change...he got with you becuase how he is works with how you are.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
Your response contains many truths about our relationship. I spent many months in counseling and found all sorts of things I did wrong (in general life) only because I didn't know better or because I actually believed things would change--people change all the time, I was an optimist. We were married young and I permitted him to behave inappropriately in the past and that is why he continues. Now I just wonder, am I doomed to one of those marriages where the couple stays together "anyways" or "for the kids" even though they aren't equals with regards to respect and love and intimacy? I've done the "through thick and thin" thing and now that my blinders have been removed, denial has been squashed and backbone has been installed, is it simply too late?
Well, I was you thru 3 marriages, and him thru the 4th one.
In the 4th marriage - I sobered up - I addressed the dysfunctional thinking, reasoning, and emotional association patterns.
And so this might help you, if you need more - email.
When I sobered up - I had invested my entire inheritance in a business that "we" jointly owned and was failing under his management inabilities. I worked for him in the capacity of manual labor for two years building roads, and helping with the admihistrative duties - but I had no 'say"in the business - I wasn't an equal in the marriage or th ebusiness - at the time I thought it was because I drank - but that was not the case. Read on.
So when I sobered up - I ceased to resent him for me "having this life" and realized with my emotionally driven actions, decisions, words, and prioritization I had created this life for me. I had a child - the man was emotionally abusive, we lived in poverty and squalor and social disregard. The child was a servant and a manual laborer as well...and they had no relationship, nor did the child have one with me - then or now.
I sobered up at 33....I stayed till I was 35. When I was 33 an sober about 3 weeks, I told him I would work for him for two years - to equal the time I had worked for him while drinking. His claim was that I had eliminated his ability to run the business successfully with my unrealiability and unpredictability. That made sense - if you don't overthink or seek justification. So I stayed - I worked, I paid us out of debt, he continued to mismanage - but that is not the point.
I told him I'd say two years, and pay us out of debt as a priority, and if we could create a business working relationship of equality - I would stay forever. I realized that asking for a more passionate, involved, or emotionally bonded relationship with a self-serving and shallow individual was pointless...it was unrealistic.
Unrealistic expectations without factual assessment of life in general prior to involvement had driven me to anorexia, bulemica, 4 marriages that were all ended by 35, and the bottle, along with severe debt, etc. etc.
In that two years where I learned a great deal about myself, gained my own trust, respect, admiration, and acceptance of my character - not by "taking his crap" - but by restructuring my reasoning and emotional association process to be in alignment.....I became "happy" - in a situation of finacial, physical, mental and emotional reality that most people would claim "there is no way to even be marginally content in that situation".
Untrue.......that came from within. I had agreed to stay - and would still be there, except that I had put a provision in my statement to him two years before. I wanted more out of life than to live hand to mouth, in perpetual squalor. Iwanted my child - then 14, to have a chance at a higher education. So I could not, nro would I, tolerate more debt embrance, in short - if the business could succeed -I wold stay in the marriage for the sake of a the business providing the child with what the inheritance i had invested in he business - should have been used for. His education and his life experiences.
Two years into sobriety - I was not an "equal" in the bsuiness - despite being the primary laborer and administrator of it. YOu do not "earn equality from someone else" - you give it to yourself. HE did not want my input nor to consider my goals or standards....he wanted my assets nad my abilities to futher his own immediate benefit and gratification. He began to pursue credit cards...which would have meant more debt. That signaled the end of teh relationship.
I left him with the cash, the assets, the business - I relocated, I found a job, I paid my bills, I hanndled the financial aspect of our divorce. I later filed our unpaid taxes once divorced with my finances - so that we could resolve the back tax debt - so that "I" could have a life eventually.
He paid nothing, sold hte equipment, kept the cash, defrauded the bank and IRS. I paid the debt - ot have a life - and don't regret it. You can't deal with people of low character and not expect some impact.
So you're asking if you can "tolerate" this level of marriage....yes, you can. If you get realistic and accept that to expect depth out of a shallow individual is totally "stupid" on your part.
Do you stay for the sake of the child - that is up to you? the inteeractive dynamic in yoyur relationship sets for life the expectations the child has for his own relationships in the future.
So at this point, I think the real question and concern you have - has been couched and unaddressed.
I don't think your question is "can I stay in this marriage like it is and make due"...I think your real fear and concern, your real source of anger, fear and resentment - is that is your only option because you can't change him. So unless you're willing to take on the task of self-actualization, single parenthood and the "unkonwn" of life that you were seeking to avoid - by hiding behind him and "marriage" all this time - it's what you're condemned to....not being "asked to do".
It is up to you. Your life will be waht you make of it. If I can help, let me know.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
Welcome to the board, Robin, it sounds like you have been through hell and were just coming around to the other side, right?
I have a question before I can give you much of an answer. You didn't really give a time line, when did these meetings with this other woman take place? Was it before, during or after the counseling and rebuilding you've been doing?
Thanks in advance for your answer ~
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Hi 2nd,
He met her while we were married, about 3 years ago. He did sales for a few months and met her that way (she was in purchasing). They have had several lunches ever since, and I am assuming this went on before he started having affairs, during our separation (August-December 2004), during the counseling and now obviously during the rebuilding.
I am starting to put things together now (a day late and a dollar short, but whatever) that I am always going to be the one who is the bad guy and moves out or separates or whatever. He had the first affair (late 2003-early 2004) and I was the one who thought we couldn't throw away 13 years of marriage. During the 2nd affair (early 2004 to summer 2004), it was obvious he didn't care although oddly enough before I even moved out he asked me not to but I said hell no I am not staying. I was really pissed off at that point. Then months later (winter 2004)when he asked me if we can work things out, I was still angry but he seemed very positive about working it out and making an effort and honestly I thought if he asked me back and I didn't give it another chance, I didn't want to be the one to tell my son that I didn't try. I thought if I give it the ol' college try and things didn't work out, then my conscience was clear. If it did work out fine, then we all win. I just don't know how long I am supposed to keep trying. I know DH loves me (in some strange way I may have never heard of) and wants us to be married and happy but I am certain he wants to live two lives--a single one and a married one. I know that he "doesn't know what he wants" because he has told me this before.
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Sorry I am being dense as well--I keep typing stuff and erasing it, then forgetting I erased it. :)
She cancelled their last lunch date (November 04) because she was not interested in him "that way". She is the one who told me how long they have been having lunches together so that is how I figured it out. His last lunch with her was sometime in October from what I gathered. So he has been lunching with her over the past 3 years. We stopped counseling in January because everything was so wonderful blah blah blah. I believe he had lunch with her before counseling, possibly during and definitely after.
Okay, now I need to clarify. DO you mean Nov 04 or Nov 05? I realize the year just changed but I'm trying to figure out if this ended a year ago or just a few months ago? And if she says she wasn't interested in him "that way" was he making moves on her? What made her think it was a "more than friends" thing?
Jen
The lunch dates ended two months ago in November 05. She told me she was seeing someone else and that DH had told her he was seeing someone as well, so I think she cancelled because she didn't think it was appropriate for them to keep having lunch if they are seeing other people (who didn't know about their lunches). While DH was the one who initiated the email, she was the one who made the lunch date with him (the time I found out about) and then she cancelled it. She did say that there was no physical relationship and both she and he told me on separate occasions that there was a romantic interest early on (probably when they first met) but they chose to remain friends. I'm guessing having me on the phone, the wife she never heard of, prompted her to add that she didn't feel "that way" about him.
Edited to add: I apologize for the 04/05 confusion, the recent change in year messed me up. :)
Edited 1/4/2006 6:07 pm ET by jesses_mom
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