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Not interested in Husband?
| Thu, 06-01-2006 - 1:45pm |
Hi, here is my background. I am married for 9 years (together 13) One child.
My husband and I have always been great. We were married at 22 and we both have change so
much over the years. He used to be good at communicating and the past few years all he
does is yell and get mad at the dumbest things. He likes to argue and be condescending
to me. I have left him before over this and with the help of marriage counseling, he was
getting better, now its back to the same old crap! I don't know wether to leave or wait
it out. Its so hard, with kid and we work together. I don't take his crap anymore which
I know pisses him off. I stand up for myself now! I am such a stronger person, but why
do i put up with his behavior? Its borderline verbal abuse. I do lay it all out on the
table at counseling. He swears everytime he will be better, its been 2 years..We are
so up and down! Shouldn't marriage be mostly ups? I know its not perfect, but is it
too much to ask to be treated with respect that I deserve?
I know I can leave again, it was so hard on our child, but I want ot be happy. The physical attraction is not there on my end anymore. I think i have shut down emotionally
and physically. help?
So confused..
My husband and I have always been great. We were married at 22 and we both have change so
much over the years. He used to be good at communicating and the past few years all he
does is yell and get mad at the dumbest things. He likes to argue and be condescending
to me. I have left him before over this and with the help of marriage counseling, he was
getting better, now its back to the same old crap! I don't know wether to leave or wait
it out. Its so hard, with kid and we work together. I don't take his crap anymore which
I know pisses him off. I stand up for myself now! I am such a stronger person, but why
do i put up with his behavior? Its borderline verbal abuse. I do lay it all out on the
table at counseling. He swears everytime he will be better, its been 2 years..We are
so up and down! Shouldn't marriage be mostly ups? I know its not perfect, but is it
too much to ask to be treated with respect that I deserve?
I know I can leave again, it was so hard on our child, but I want ot be happy. The physical attraction is not there on my end anymore. I think i have shut down emotionally
and physically. help?
So confused..

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Sorry, I have been out of town...
Yes, maybe he should lose friends due to his behavior, I think men are different.
A woman would not put up with it from her friends, thats me though.
I know thats why I don't cry anymore and I don't put up with it, I yell back or
try to talk to him. We had it out this past weekend... I did mention to treat my equal
or I would be gone for good this time. We still go to a therapist and I layed it all
out last week so we will see if there is progress....? Hope so!
Yes, I do believe too that it is learned behavior and I tell him all the time that
he is like BOTH parents and its terrible, he just gets upset. I even told the therapist that and she agrees with me and he was very upset about that, but I think he finally believes it! I do go to her by myself sometimes, but I am very open in discussing anything
and everthing in front of him to her! I don't have that problem, it shows that I really
do care and want to make this work. The anger that I see is the yelling at me and my son
for stupid things. I consider that part anger cuz of the look on his face is terrifying.
(I also mentioned that to her!) he says he just doesn't realize it! He promissed to work
very hard on it ...we'll see.
Your links were good, i don't think I fall into some of those, good thing, he doesn't
cuss at me, I would be definitely be gone then... he gets mad at the littlest things...
this weekend it was something small so I just let him alone and went about my night. then
he expected sex, and I said "no way" this is not how you treat someone you love!!! The next day, he apologized and didn't know what was wrong with him, then he was a little
better the next day..
Any advice??
All this time I've been concerned that the issue isn't anger management but verbal abuse, and frankly, as soon as you say something that sounds like it's an anger problem, you say something else that sounds like abuse. I understand that he acts that way with everyone, and I understand that his parents act the same way, but if he's getting in your face and if it's terrifying, anger problem or not, being afraid is abuse.
Honestly, I think you should be at a crossroads. If he can't get it together, and fast, staying isn't a good thing for you to do. No one should live with verbal abuse and fear. To do so is to live with abuse, whether it's termed "anger problems" or not. Please be aware that if your husband is abusive, couples counseling will not be helpful in the long run, in fact it will make your situation worse. He'll use what you say against you, will twist and use what the therapist says to confuse and contort the situation, and you'll be made to feel partially responsible for the problems because that's how "regular" individual therapists work. If you fall into any of the articles at all it means you're falling into the abused category. Here's a post that does a great job of explaining why couples counseling is not appropriate in domestic violence:
"Regular" vs. DV Counseling
I'd suggest you consider seeing an domestic violence therapist on your own (a DV therapist will not see you as a couple); at the least I'd suggest calling a DV hotline to talk to someone about your situation for their input (let me know if you need a hotline number -- it doesn't need to be an emergency to call a hotline). I'd also suggest doing more reading at the Domestic Abuse Board's Homepage to educate yourself on domestic violence. It's not about the articles being "good" or not, it's about whether they fit your situation. Also read "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men" by Lundy Bancroft . Bancroft is a therapist who specifically treats abusive men. His book is written for the women who are in relationships with abusive men, to give them an understanding of how these men think and what their thought process is. It's very enlightening, you'll understand a lot by reading the book. Another book to read is "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans Check to see if your public library has a copies of these books (much easier to borrow than to buy, at least until you know you want to own them). A great audio interview with the author of one of the books I suggested above:
Why Does He Do That? Interview w/Lundy
You might also post on the Dealing With Domestic Abuse board for their thoughts and input on your situation.
~ cl-2nd_life"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Yes, another identity, sorry, just in case you know?
I know, I am just as confused. He's so jekyl and hyde, you never know how
he is going to be. I think its both anger and verbal sbuse. I see verbal abuse as
cussing and telling someone they are useless, worthless, etc. He does not say that
to me. So I don't know where I fall in (category?) I get the condescending behavior
to me and the anger face. He has no patience, with anyone. It seems like everything annoys
him and he is easily agitated. His mom tried talking to him yesterday about his mannerisms
to people and our son, and he told her to mind her own business and he is stressed out.
Yes, i am at a crossroads, and I will bring up to the counselor about this too.
We had a fight the other night and he said its always him doing something wrong, and I
said "it is you, you are the problem!" He did accept that! He needs help and is getting it. Our next session is next week.
What do you think now?
Verbal and emotional abuse is about a lot more than foul language and put downs. You said he makes you feel stupid, he speaks to you like you're stupid and he gets angry at the drop of a hat. You said his anger is frightening sometimes. Those are abusive actions. Making you feel stupid, speaking to you like you're stupid are put downs. You don't have to say "you're stupid" in order to get your point across. You don't have to say "I'm going to punch you" or punch a wall to make a person feel frightened and threatened, you can do that with your facial expression, your posturing, your emotions. Emotional abuse is all about feeling scared and threatened without actually doing anything that's a tangible threat.
You said he'd been through anger management before and was better for a while but went back to his old self. I don't know if that's because he only went to stop you from leaving him, to please someone else, or because he truly thought he had a problem, didn't like who he was and truly wanted to change. I expect his behavior returned because he wasn't really committed to changing it. If his real agenda in going was to please someone else or to save his marriage rather than to make a real change in his life then I'd say there's not much question why it didn't last. He didn't really want the change to begin with.
You said he accepted that he is the problem, but I get the idea he simply didn't rebut your statement rather than agreeing that what you said was accurate. It started out with him saying 'it's always my fault', that doesn't sound like he believes the issue is with him. In fact, it sounds just the opposite, that he doesn't really buy that this is his fault, and if he doesn't think his behavior is inappropriate or wrong, it's not likely to change, at least not long term. If he agrees he's the problem, what does he intend to do about it? What, in his mind, is the problem that needs to be addressed? He'd also told his mother the day before to mind her own business when she told him he was getting out of line. That doesn't sound like taking responsibility, accepting he's the problem or wanting to change at all to me.
Abusive men can be tricky, they believe they're entitled to more than women are. They can and will tell you what you want to hear to keep you from leaving if they think you'r getting close to going. They can turn on the charm and/or back off the bad behavior to get you back securely in the relationship before sliding back into their old ways. They can agree it's their fault, take blame and responsibility, be sorry and promise to change, but it's only temporary. The statistics on abusers who change is 1% - really. Abusers use what's said and learned in couples counseling to mess you up. Whether it's by being angry about what you've disclosed to the therapist or confusing you by accentuating the fact that the counselor says your part of the problem in this too, or by using what's been learned about counseling against you -- to *attack* you as being the problem or an equal share of the problem. Does he do anything like any of those things?
In the end, it doesn't matter whether he can be identified as a full-fledge abuser or not. The bottom line is that you're verbally assaulted and insulted and you're emotionally battered as well. Whether he's got anger management issues, a mental health issue, is an abusive man or anything else doesn't matter. The bottom line is that this is not an acceptable or appropriate way to live. You don't really have to dissect the man to know that the situation is not worthy of human inhabitation.
You said, " Yes, I am at a crossroads, and I will bring up to the counselor about this too." What are you bringing up to the counselor? I'm confused.
Have you done any of the things I suggested in my previous post?
~ cl-2nd_life"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
know that I am abused, emotionally abused! I told him that one day and he laughed.
I am going to bring up to the counselor that thats the way I feel, abused in front of him and her and see what he says to that and her opinion. Thants what I meant. I do think
he just agrees with me sometimes to see me not leave, that has crossed my mind. He doesn't
"attack" me after counseling. He always agrees with her that he is wrong!! I know it
doesn't make sense. Jekyl behavior. He also knows that I have had enough and he is going back to anger classes. I told him otherwise I am gone! I want to see improvement or a
willing to change!!
Be aware that "Jekyll and Hyde" is an extremely common term used to describe abusers.
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Yes, I am extremely careful and cautious!
The counselor told him he has to get anger classes and we try to talk everything out at the sessions. She is a psychiatrist and does treat people for all sorts of problems, but maily marriage counseling.
What else should I try?
A psychologist will not have specialized training in domestic violence or abuse, unless they have a certificate, degree or license that specifies they have that specific training (and title). Specialized training is necessary in order to competently counsel in that area. For instance, some individual therapists offer couples counseling "as a service" without having the specialized training and certification that entitles them to work with couples. Since working with couples is vastly different than working with individuals, and they've not had adequate or appropriate training, they generally do more harm to the very relationships they're trying to help. It's like having a podiatrist (foot doctor) do your heart surgery. Sure, he's a doctor, but he's not had heart training. Make sense?
Your question "What else should I try?" makes me think maybe you and I are looking at this differently without realizing we're not on the same page. What is it you're trying to accomplish? Also, when you say you're "extremely careful and cautious", what do you mean? Has he been physical? Have his actions made you he may become physical? Or are you careful and cautious not to give him reason to yell at you?
~ cl-2nd_life"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
also reminds him I can leave anytime. At least, I though she was getting through!
I am trying to save my marriage and make him realize how much he hurts me. Thats my
goal.
I am cautious in my decision making. I try to avoid fights, but sometimes I just
let him have it right back , saying I don't deserve this treatment. I am confused...
he isn't like this all the time, thats the problem...he is sweet then upset... I do
have that wall up at all times, trying to figure out what to do. No we have never been
physical! I think we are on the same page... I believe you think I should leave? Am I right? I am hangin onto whats left of hope. I see you have been down this path and he
didn't change so you are warning me?
Once again, i am just so confused....I am trying my hardest to make this work.
I guess I don't get how she's "getting through". You tell her you're fed up and she reminds him you can leave anytime. It sounds like she's serving as interpreter rather than counselor. A counselor helps the two of you communicate together, doesn't speak for you. Along the counseling lines, you said you thought she was getting through to him. What I'd like to ask you is, if she's getting through to him and if the counseling is helpful, then why are you still going after two years? That seems like an awful long time to be in couples counseling to me. Is he improving? Is your communication, your fighting, your marriage markedly better than it was when you started two years ago? If it's not, I'd say it's not helping, rather I'd say you're continuing in the same pattern you've been in. Perhaps seeming to get better for a while but always going back to that same bad place. If she's "getting through" why, after two years is he telling his mother to "mind her own business" when she tells him he's getting out of line, that doesn't sound like anything's "gotten through" -- that's his attitude after two years of counseling for his behavior??? Aside from all that, the abuse therapist would be for you, not him; in that respect, the therapist getting through to him has no bearing on you seeing an abuse therapist.
I'm concerned about being on the same page because it seems to me that your focus is on him, on trying to change him, and that's not possible. You've said that you have two goals. Saving your marriage is something you can only do your share of, a marriage is a partnership, two people, and takes the efforts of both. You can only do your share. Beyond that, you can choose to stay in a marriage no matter how bad it is, it won't be healthy or happy, but it will survive. From what you've said, the only danger your marriage is in is that you won't stay if your husband's behavior doesn't change. That puts the onus squarely on him. You have no control or effort to put into that, it's his. Your focus needs to be on you, not him. Honestly, after two years of counseling, I'm surprised your still focusing on him. You have to make your own progress and deal with yourself, he's the one who's responsible for working on himself, not you. If this is brought on by stress then he needs to deal with the stress differently. If he chooses not to, you have to decide if you're willing to live in the environment that exists as a result of his choice. He chooses how he deals with this anger issue, you choose what you will accept in your life. That's putting the focus where it belongs.In trying to make him understand, you can't. Let's put it in perspective. He's not stupid, right? He has no problem understanding things, he goes through life day by day, interacting with people -- and you -- and doesn't struggle to understand them, right? As far as you go, you're not stupid either, right? You go through life day by day, interacting with people -- and him -- and you don't have to struggle to get people to understand what you mean, right? I'll also say that it's not as if you've been silent and left him to try to figure out what's wrong on his own, you've explained and tried to make him understand a million times but he doesn't get it. It's not that he doesn't understand the words you're saying, he does. It's not a matter of him not understanding, it's a matter of him caring and wanting to change it. I spent years doing just what you're doing, thinking if I just said the right thing, if I just found the right way to say it, he'd understand and it would all change. It took me years to figure out that it isn't about not understanding. Which takes us right back to change. When you realize that he does understand you have to ask yourself how likely he is to change. This has been an ongoing issue for two years. It's a set behavior, not a bump in the road.
It seems to me that you say you feel this is abuse, but you seem to want to avoid dealing with it as abuse. I understand not wanting to think of yourself as being in an abusive situation, but how can you deal with an issue effectively if you try to deal with it by working on something it's not?
~ cl-2nd_life"Experience is what you get
when you don't get what you want."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
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