Not sure you all can help....
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| Wed, 09-21-2005 - 2:00am |
I guess part of me needs to just talk and I don't know who to talk to. So I thought I'd try you all.
I am a very religious person. DH and I met at a religious school. We belong to the same faith. We agreed that our faith was our lifestyle and central to who we were and to what our family would be.
Now fast forward to this weekend. We had an issue come up Sunday and I asked DH a question and "stumbled" across the real answer. Nothing catastrophic, but something that we both had agreed on to do wasn't getting done, even though he kept misleading me into thinking it was taken care of. This upset me very much because when we agree on something, especially something that deals with our faith, it isn't a "voluntary" thing that you just do when you feel the urge or it's easy. You do it, period.
So I was having problems with it and not sure how to deal with it all. Basically DH told me that this was the way it was going to be now, no discussions, and if I tried to do it on my own behind his back, we would have major problems. (I don't take kindly to being talked to like that but I did really well and didn't go ballistic.)
Monday he comes home from work and I asked him another question, trying to figure out why he didn't feel X was important. And that's when he lays the load on me. Seems he's decided that our religion is a good religion but he doesn't have to live it's tenets. Just the ones he wants to. When he wants to. (Keep in mind that this is my LIFE, one that we shared together.) He doesn't believe in XYZ, very specific tenets to our religion. But he wants to just continue to float along anyway. I have a problem with this. One, it's more than just a religion, it's been our way of life. This permeates everything I do and guides mem literally, in everything I do. Two, I would rather him find something he believe in and can live with conviction then just stay where he's at cause it's easier. Plus, it sucks as an example of what type of person to be for the kids. Three, he wants me to believe the way he does (though he understands that he doesn't get to push these ideas on the kids unless I were to change my mind.) Four, this suddenly changes our whole marriage dynamic. Something near and dear to me that I shared with DH is gone. And he doesn't understand why this would be a problem. I told him that our religion is the glue that holds my life together, and while I can still share pieces of my life with him, I can't share one of the biggest and dearest parts cause he just doesn't "get it" anymore. And he really doesn't.
I could tell that there was something bugging him for awhile. And I don't necessarily think this is the something, I think this is what he's doing to cope with the something. But I don't know how to cope with this. I don't know how to relate. For 10 years we've had this shared thing and in 24 hours he's taken it away. And he didn't even bother to talk to me about it until now.
I'm not a hard-nosed. (Well, not really, though it might sound like it.) There is room in my world for questioning and doubt and searching out answers. he knows this. (He went ballistic once, right after we got married, when I asked a question that smacked of questioning to him.) I like knowledge, I like learning. I'm not a you can't question and still love God kind of person. But he didn't bring anything up til he had made his choice. I didn't get to help or have any input, and I'm sorry, but this affects me.
Add on top that I have problems with my pg (I have less than a month left) and one of my problems is hypertension. Which is why I disappeared in August, I was on bedrest because it wasn't being controlled well. And add all this stress and I'm not handling things well. Plus I'm uber-hormonal. And I feel like my world has been turned upside down and I don't know how to handle all this.
How do I create a good marriage when I've already been married for 9 years and the playing field just suddenly and drastically changed into something I would have avoided like the plague? How do I connect when a fundamental part of who I am can't be shared now? How to I accept him and what he believes without condoning it? I'm not one who can compromise on my beliefs, I can't say, okay, this commandment isn't important so it's okay not to keep it. How do I handle all this with my kids?
Jen

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Di,
I really believe he was honest and sincere when we met, dated, and married. He didn't act this way at first. This way of being started about 4-5 years into being married and I noticed it and had a problem with it then. Since that time it has steadily gotten worse and invaded more and more areas of our life and marriage. Honestly, I think that there is a combination of things going on. One, he was naive and thought that life would be a cakewalk and it's been tough. He had a very warped view of the amount of work it takes to be married, have a family, etc and he has NOT adapted well to the reality of it all. So this has become the way he copes. And I use the term cope loosely. Two, he had a VERY bad example of what life should be like. His parents really were messed over when it came to their marriage and how they handled it all. And I didn't know that completely until AFTER we were married. They lived in a different state and I wasn't really around them. Though there were signs and if I had been wiser, I may have caught them better.
This has really come to a head the last 2 years or so. That's when the tolerable line was crossed for me and I've struggled a lot since then to set and maintain boundaries. And I'm not really good at behaving because I am one of those assertive and aggressive personalities that knows exactly what to say to get under someone's skin. I've already spent a couple of years retraining myself to behave like a rational adult, LOL!
I think he had the above crisis (life not being what he expected) and instead of turning towards God, he figures there can't be one. And he started searching to prove it. Or at least clarify. I've read his journals from before we met so if he was trying to pull one over on someone then he tried to pull it over on himself too. Which is possible I suppose. We also now live in the town where he grew up and our church leader is someone who has known him since he was a teenager. Plus a decent amount of the people we went to church with. So I have their feedback on how he was growing up. Plus there have been times I've questioned things and he has been the one to build me back up instead of taking the opportunity to create more doubt in my mind. It's ironic cause when we met I was in the midst of a crisis of who I was and what life was like, and he is the one who pulled me back.
Everything is in question now. Which is really bad for me cause I'm a planner by nature. I had my life planned out since I was 3. I also had back-up plans for that plan and back-ups to my back-ups. This just never was one of the variables I ever considered. So not knowing where I am and where he is and where we are is very disconcerting. But I am going to try and see if there is a way to work through all this. And I told DH today that he really needs to make sure he's sure this is what he wants, because he will have to pay whatever consequences come out of it. If I can't handle this, and I'm not saying I can't because I don't know it yet, then he really should be sure he's doing what he thinks is right. I would hate for too much damage to be done and then have him decide he made a mistake.
Funny thing is, I've been fighting for years to get him more involved in our marriage and fixing it, and he says that the ironic thing is that NOW he's more committed to making it work and being happy. But that's because he thinks he only has today. And it might not be enough early enough. I don't know yet. Plus, I have a hard time with wondering if it's just not something he means only now and will set aside once I seem to have adjusted. Won't be the first time.
Jen
Jen, I'm at work and haven't had a chance to read your whole response, but I didn't want to wait to say that I didn't think you didn't like my response, I just thought you thought I didn't understand your problem, and maybe I don't, which is why I posted the response I did.
No worries on what I'm thinking or feeling.
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
I know you said you talked to him last night, I'm not sure what you talked about or what his response was. I also know you said he listens to what he wants and avoids the rest, so most of what I'm saying is maybe a little ludicrous, but....
You need to sit him down and say "this is a critical crisis and I am seriously afraid that it is one we will not get through." He needs to know (and I'm sure you've already told him) that his behavior is not just bad, not just hard but destroying your marriage. There needs to be no doubt that he's completely aware that due to his choice of behavior it could all come crumbling down, gone forever. Laying out exactly what's wrong (his actions, his hurtfulness, etc.) and letting him know it cannot continue regardless of whether he's upset and feels like being hurtful or not. Seeing a marriage counselor should be mandatory and happen asap. I'm guessing he could use a little individual therapy too, whether he'd go or not I don't know. Read the book "The Dance of Anger: A Woman's Guide to Changing the Patterns of Intimate Relationships", by Harriet Goldhar Lerner. , it will help you -- and it's an easy read :)
I don't mean this in a mean way, but he sounds like an immature child who's always had his way. It sounds like he has an unrealistic view of what the would should be like and what he's "entitled" to. We all had unrealistic views once, but time and experience have opened our eyes to reality, like it or not. It sounds like he's got his eyes tightly shut, refusing to take a look at the truth.
I think the situation calls for immediate straight talk and urgent action. Obviously, you can't make him agree to anything or make him behave any differently than he has over the years. What you can do is make him very much aware that this is a crisis situation and that while he can choose to pretend it isn't happening, the end result will be largely based on his ability to stand up like a man and take action or continue to pretend it will all go away if he avoids it.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Sexual Pleasure
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Cl,
I did sit him down and tell him that he better be darn sure of what he's doing because I don't know that this is something I can get through. And he needs to know that because he will have to pay the price of losing me and the kids (to a degree, I wouldn't ever keep them from him or talk bad etc). I told him the last 9 months have been exceptionally bad (but I was saying that all along, I'm not one who keeps how I'm feeling bottled up) and that the last 2 years were hell too, though it did get worse these last 9 months. I told him I was beyond tired of being treated like crap. And I've told him all along that he has been destroying our marriage. His attitudes, his inability to communicate, me not being able to trust him because of all his different things he's done.
I've also told him that there will be certain things that CANNOT happen, even once. If they do, I don't care if he was just trying to lash out and didn't really mean it, etc etc, I am gone. And I'm letting him know so he is fully aware what those things are, so he can't claim ignorance. I call them my non-negiotables. So far I've given 2 and I've told him that just because something hasn't made the list yet doesn't mean it won't. He's evolving his beliefs, I get to evolve my list. He says he understands this. He was worried I would take it to the extreme and outlaw everything but I told him if I do that, then I am dooming any chance of it working out. Besides, I have to be able to follow through and leave so I'm going to make sure my non-negiotables are just that. There will also be things that I won't tolerate anymore, but I do have to allow a SMIDGE of room (I haven't talked to him about this yet) to slip. But there will have to be consistant progress.
I've taken him to clergy and to counselors over the years. It's hard to be consistant with it, we've moved a lot etc. Now, we don't have insurance coverage for it. But yes, marriage counseling really NEEDS to happen. This pg is slowing that down. And I've asked him for years to go and straighten out his issues. He's always resented my thoughts that he needs "fixed". Now, he just might do it. I don't know. Can't hurt to ask again.
Dh is his mother's favorite. He got away with pretty much whatever growing up, but on the flip side, he was the perfect child. He never did anything bad or wrong. His mother thought and thinks he is perfect, all knowing, all intelligent. To illustrate the point, the weekend after I gave birth to our first baby she was sitting with me at my parents' house and told me how lucky I was to be married to her son. I had just given birth to her first grandchild, and he had thrown his hands up during delivery and walked out of the room (for a minute) because he was tired and couldn't take it anymore. And then she tells me how lucky I am. I still shake my head at it.
He still has issues and hates to not be right, not be perfect, not be thought of in totally wonderful and glowing terms. There are times, especially recently, that if I have issues with things he says I just don't love him. And I know this is learned. His dad is king of, if you love me, you would do everything I want you to. And if not, you don't love me and you will pay the price. He cancelled visiting us at Christmas one year cause I wouldn't change a trip (in September) when I went home to visit my mother who had been diagnosed with breast cancer. He wanted to come to the state we were in that week, bought a ticket without talking to us, and called us to pick him up from the airport (a week before he was coming). I told him no. And talked DH into backing me up. His dad cancelled Christmas (which he already had bought tickets for) and didn't talk to us for 6 months as payback.
He does have a very unrealistic view of what he should get. Right now part of the problem is he wants me and our church to change our beliefs and the way we do things for him because he thinks we should. I told him to find a religion that does things the way he wants them done. He doesn't want to do that. He wants to stay put and have us change.
So yes, it is quite a crisis right now. And if he truly keeps up past actions AND adds this on top, I REALLY don't know if our marriage will make it through. And I've said that. I have also said numerous times that I don't know if it will make it through everything else W/O the religious issues on top. And I've asked him numerous times if he just doesn't believe me when I say that, or is he banking on my patience, or what?
So yup, I'm getting ready to really expect certain things and that is part of what worries me. I think he'll do them, but I think he will grow to resent it. And that is part of what I meant when I said that I worry he won't be able to live with ME.
At least we will be talking to our clergy here next week. So, we'll see how that goes.
Jen
you have to look at the 'being unequally yoked' thing, since he's decided that after all this time, your religon is more important to you than it is to him.
Was he ever as devout as you? Was he raised as devoutly as you were? Did he become a part of your religion when he married you?
It certainly sounds to me as if he's having a crisis of faith. Have you thought about talking to you pastor about it? It might help.
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It certainly sounds to me as if he's having a crisis of faith. Have you thought about talking to you pastor about it? It might help.>>
Yup, he was definitely as devout, if not moreso, as I was when we met, dated, and were first married. Not that I wasn't, I just wasn't as closed minded about other things as he was. His mom is what I jokingly refer to as a "fanatic". And we all know the best jokes have some truth in them.
I did talk to my church leader briefly and sent him an email with more detail. He's planning on talking with us this next week.
Jen
For starters, I will say that neither DH or I are religious people. DH was raised in a certain faith, and I've always been one of those people who is spiritual but can't for the life of me believe in religion. With that being said, we have very different views on certain things pertaining to our beliefs. We are both fine with this because we both believe that everyone has their own personal relationship with their God anyway, and I honestly don't believe two people can have the same relationship or share every view and belief in the same manner. We are very complex creatures, and no one out there is exactly like you.
Recently, we lost our infant son and this brought out conversations about faith and our beliefs. I will admit that some of his beliefs made me very sad. On the other hand, I had to respect that is what he believes and I can believe something totally different, and it is OKAY. Who I am to say someone should feel/or think the same way I do? Who I am to say that as people, we shouldn't be allowed to question, change, or grow in many different ways?
I do see your dilema in that you set the foundation of your marriage upon these beliefs. I also have to say that we did the same thing in our marriage, and yes, things have changed. We always said we would parent a certain way, but things change. The only things that haven't changed were our marriage vows, but everything in between- I think we should all be given room to explore who we are and change if we want to. Loving your partner is all about acceptance, and realizing that we will all change at some point in life. Some of us change a lot, some of us don't, but it's okay. It wouldn't be okay if our morals were to change, i.e. infidelity, stealing, lying, etc., but everything else is pretty much okay as long as our foundation isn't rocked and we give room to accept and respect our partners.
I never planned to raise any of our children in a religion so I can't relate on that part of your dilema. I always figured that once they were of a certain age, they could figure out their own beliefs and how they felt about a certain religion. I always planned to just be honest and objective in my responses to any of their questions. Explain different religions, how they work for some people, and also to explain having your own personal relationship with God. We can pretty much all believe what we want to believe, and educating my children on different religions, customs, spirituality, etc. can't really hurt them IMO. Though, I have seen a lot of people get married that were of opposite religions and teach their kids both. Or one parent is religious, and the other is not. Many times, I have seen people that were raised in one religion totally change their beliefs and figure out that while it works for their parents, it doesn't fit for them.
So I guess this is really all on you. You can't do much about changing his beliefs, the only thing you can really do is decide how important this is to you. To have your partner share all of your religious beliefs, or if it's just okay for you to have your own beliefs. If this is something that you can live with, and can you respect him for having different beliefs?
Edited to say:
I posted this without reading any of the other posts. Maybe I don't get it, but I think some of the things your husband does is just downright disrespectful whether religion is in the picture or not. And maybe you think his behaviors have a lot to do with him not following this religion, but I really don't because we aren't religious, and I would still be having huge issues if my husband decided to start disrespecting me or vice versa. Him doing things out of anger to hurt you, hanging up on you, not being able to confront you face to face- they are all signs of disrespect.
Edited 9/25/2005 4:28 pm ET ET by e_m_herrera
E.M. Herrera, I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your son. How devastating that has to have been for you.
My deepest sympathy to you and your husband.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Sexual Pleasure
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
I have to say the first thing I thought of when you said "He seems to think I might leave him over this though I haven't said, hinted, or even thought of that. " is that maybe part of this is his way of trying to push you into ending the marriage. An observation, that makes no difference, but is something I noticed based on your description, is that he's done just what most of us end up doing, mimicking the behavior he learned from his father. There are certainly enough similarities that it's glaring!
Much as this is not an answer for you, and certainly won't be any help, I think at this point all you can do is take it one day at a time and adopt a wait and see attitude. I agree that if he was truly extremely devout he's having some kind of crisis of faith, unless his devoutness was a result of his living under his parent's thumbs and living as he was expected rather than what he really wanted. In any case, this change is new and therefore, I think, is easily subject to change. It's good that you're talking to your pastor this week and it's good that you're continuing to dialog with him, and that you're being very straight and upfront about what you will and will not tolerate. Knowing boundaries you will not accept being crossed and putting your line in the sand keeps you and him accountable.
All I can really say at this point is good luck with this. Please let us know how the meeting with your pastor goes. Keep us informed and just vent anytime you want, pregnancy brain induced or not, we'll understand!
Wishing for the best, Jen.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:Sexual Pleasure
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Well, the meeting with our church leader went better than I thought it would. I didn't say much at all, just let DH and him talk and sat and held DH's hand. He was very nervous. But it went well and DH has been thinking A LOT since then. I can sit and watch the wheels moving. And he keeps talking to me and we go back and forth on explaining things. I do really think that this is a crisis of his faith, it's just questionable how this will turn out. BUT, DH seems to be really working on and not just dismissing my concerns. As long as he doesn't go back to dismissing....
My Dh is a very smart guy and I think that's a big part of the problem. I think that faith became to simple for him and he wanted to go more complex and find real answers but left faith out of the process altogether. Which doesn't work well with religion. You have to have a balance. He seems to be working on trying to regain some faith. And that will be a long road to hoe. But, I will work on it with him.
Jen
P.S. Oh! And he has said where he can see individual counseling for him would be helpful. Hopefully he means it and will FOLLOW THROUGH but getting him to say it's a good idea is farther than we've gone before.
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