Should I move out?

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-23-2002
Should I move out?
293
Tue, 01-18-2005 - 4:54pm

I haven't posted here in awhile but really need some advice. My boyfriend and I have been having problems and on New Year's Eve it got worse. Basically, he was flirting with a much younger girl (10 years younger) at a house party. He brought her into the bathroom. I found out just a couple of minutes afterwards. I stormed in (the door was unlocked) and told the girl to get the f*** out. She didn't move. Then, I told him to tell her to get the f*** out. He didn't. Then, I finally said, "If you don't tell her to get the f*** out than we are done". There was no movement. I left and tried to call for a cab on New Year's which was impossible. Long story short, I had to wait until his friends decided to leave 2 hours later. I went home and packed my bag for a couple of days and stayed at a motel. I called and left a message to say where I was. He accussed my of being with another guy. He ended up leaving that night to a party with his friends. He didn't show up until 11:00 AM the next day and went to sleep. I asked him if he cheated on me and he said, "no". But, I still can't believe that he left or that he didn't tell that girl to leave the bathroom.

He realized how serious I was in leaving when I found out that I have been approved for a home loan and started house shopping. So, he decided to go to a counselor with me. We have went once and we have another appointment in a week. He thinks its a trust issue with me and I think it is a lack of commitment on his part. We have been together for 3 1/2 years. We talked about getting married this summer but that is obviously pushed back until we are getting along. I have realized that I don't like him or trust him when he drinks. I even told him that and his response was, "Well, who does?". This isn't the first time that we have had a fight while drinking at a party or bar.

I feel like we are at different stages in our lives. I am 4 1/2 years older than he is. I have never really felt comfortable living together because it is against my belief's. I feel like a hipocrit really because I am not living the life I want to live. I am really through with the parties and bar sceen. I wanted to get married and have children. I posted about this several months ago.

My boyfriend seems to want to work it out and I feel that he wants the counselor to say that I am wrong in not trusting him. He has done and said things that have caused mistrust. It has made me question things which I can understand how it makes him craze but he causes the doubt in the first place. He has told me that we may as well break up if I decided to move out because he doesn't want to move backwards in the relationship. I doesn't even want to go to a counselor if I do move out. I just really want to move out because I am making a lot more income this year and coud use the tax break for next year. He said that I am selfish when I have lived with him for 3 1/2 years. I told him it was only fair that I move out and own my own place and he could rent from me if he wants to. Now, I don't even know if I want him to live with me.

Please help me. Anything you say, I greatly appreciate.

~Live to be happy~Be happy to live~

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iVillage Member
Registered: 09-09-2004
Thu, 02-17-2005 - 6:03pm

Well good for you for both going to the counselor. Was this the abuse counselor or your regular counselor? You know in your heart that you two can't live together right now. It would be good to take a breather (so to speak) and this will allow both of you to find yourselves. You know that you need to become a strong independent person inside and you can only do that on your own. I understand what the fear is - fear of growing apart and of losing each other. Well Myrinalyn - you know that old saying: "If you love something set it free...."
You become so use to the way things are right now...waking up together...having all your things combined..etc. It's comforting. But what's not comforting in your situation is the way your BF dis-respects you. Being alone or willing to take the risk of being apart may make you two a stronger better couple "or" it could break you two up. But I think the risk is worth it if in the long run, you find that strong, capable, independent person we all know is inside you.

Stay Strong Myrinalyn!

hello
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-24-2004
Thu, 02-17-2005 - 11:38pm
The counselor sounds like he is in way over his head.
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 02-18-2005 - 12:41am

Myrinalyn, I'm going to respond to the two posts you posted today item by item.

What did I tell my parents and brothers about moving out? Well, I told them about my ultimatum last summer about wanting to be engaged by Christmas.

Interesting that you haven't told them how he treats you, that he throws and breaks things, that he's pushed you through a wall. Keeping this a secret isn't okay -- and it says you know it's wrong and you know they wouldn't be okay with it. Why won't you be honest about it? I'll bet I know why you won't tell them, it's because if you do, it will be really difficult explaining to them why you're staying or why you're going back. What excuses did you give for the holes in the walls when they helped you pack? You said they believe alcohol played a big part in his behavior on New Years, but they don't know his "usual" behavior, the flirting, the inappropriate conversations. They're making assumptions and giving breaks because they don't know what he's really like. Here's something important, Myrinalyn, if you can't be open and honest about any boyfriend's behavior, if you can't tell others how he acts and what he does it means the relationship is not a healthy one is not right and is not one you should stay in Lies mean it's wrong, wrong, wrong.

"I have read over some of the other board information that you posted about in the past. He doesn't try to control what I do or who I see but he does use fear and intimidation to make a point. He has actually tried to encourage me to make friends and do things with them."

It's very unlikely that any abuser will match up to every single item on any given list or description. The lists, descriptions and warnings are meant for a broad number of situations. The ones that don't match up aren't important, it's the behaviors that do match up that need to get your attention. It's great that he doesn't do them all (I'd be extremely shocked if he did) but that doesn't downplay or excuse what he does do. I linked those articles because you needed to see that what he's doing is classic abuse, that it's not unusual, not uncommon and very much abusive behavior. Never mind excuses for what he does and your giving examples of that five minutes a week when he's wonderful, you need to see that it's him, it's abuse and can be clearly identified as abuse. My ex didn't do them all either, he didn't do most of them, but those that he did, you could peg as abusive, no question about it.

"Today is the big day at the counseling office....I need to mention how I would prefer him not to go out with his friends this Saturday night because the trust isn't established yet. I know how he acts when I am with so I know he must act at least that bad if not worse when I am not around. Now, I sound controlling..."

Myrinalyn, you can't really think you're going to establish trust with him, do you? You can't trust anything about him! You can't trust when he'll go off on you and when he won't, when he'll throw and destroy things and when he won't, when he'll scare the living hell out of you by punching holes in the wall, screaming into your face, calling you names, etc. Exactly how do you expect to be able to trust him on any level when you can't trust him to say "hello" without coming unglued. Trust isn't an option, your inner protection system won't let you trust him, it's had too many examples of him being a danger and you can't trust what's a danger to you. And if you want to only talk about how he acts around other women, you're talking about his personality, his character, his personality. He treats women the way he believes is right and appropriate and that's not going to change. This is one of those big red flags that in a healthy relationship says you have conflicting values and a relationship between you won't work, isn't right, because you don't agree on the basics, the foundation. No, you don't sound controlling, you sound like you want him to change who he is and that is not going to happen. Not about how he acts with women, not about abuse, not about anything. He is who he is and you should know, you've seen it day after day.

"My counseling session was so heated up the counselor had to tell us both to, "Shut up!...."

Most of this paragraph I just covered in the paragraph just above this one. The only thing I have to add is that your boyfriend's "jokes" aren't funny. They're crude, they're intimidating and they're meant to push women around, make them feel uncomfortable, inferior, less than he. He even abuses women he doesn't date. Even if he just asked the comment in a joking way and dropped it, it's rude, uncalled for and inappropriate. I wouldn't date a guy twice that behaved this way. But the fact that he pushes it as you describe puts it on another level entirely. Myrinlayn, this behavior is abusive and it has nothing to do with you. You can't take the blame for how he behaves here, yet it's still abusive. Open your eyes, kiddo, it's right there. You have to know that women who know him feel sorry for you. I'd be truly shocked if they didn't.

"Some of the main things mentioned was that we may just have core values that are different from each other and neither of us can expect the other to change...."

Yes, yes, yes! Like I've already said, you two have basic - core value - differences. Those are essential to a relationship, how can you grow and build if your foundation is non-existent? Even if abuse wasn't a factor here, and it is, you've gone around and around for four years now, making no progress. You're not building, you can't because you don't have core values that can gel.




The last two paragraphs kind of flabbergast me. You say he says he's 99% out of the relationship then you both act shocked that the counselor would think you're going to break up. No kidding! What else would he think? You're talking about a 99% chance of ending versus a 1% chance of making it? Honey, what else is reasonable to think? It seems like you grab onto whatever you can that helps you focus on something other than the reality of your relationship. You think of it as a breather, you don't know what's happening. Come on, Myrinalyn, you've been in the middle of this for four years. You've watched it deteriorate from bad to worse, from good times to being screamed at, blamed, threatened, being pushed through a wall and more. Honey, make yourself take a good hard look at this, the reality of it, not the excuses and not clouded with those little bits of nice times that are sprinkled about. Be honest with yourself and be honest about what's happening. I've seen you respond to other's posts telling them not to get involved, telling them they do not want to be in your position. You need to take your own advice sweetie. You know it's not okay and you know you can't make it okay. You also know it's not going to change, no matter how bad you want it to.




Your next appointment with the abuse counselor is when, Monday? By now you've had your "Why Does He Do That?" book for almost two weeks. Are you reading it or avoiding it?

~ cl-2nd_life


"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."

~ Author unknown








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 12-03-2004
Fri, 02-18-2005 - 9:42am

I hope I'm not intruding by responding to your posts, but I feel like I can add something to it. This is because I am in a situation with my BF that is very volitile - we just got back together after a pseudo-break.

Anyway, like your BF mine is volitile - he doesn't throw things or even come close to touching me in any sort of violent manner, but he has been VERY hurtful and peircing with his verbal outbursts to me and his moody irratoinal behavior, ESPECIALLY after some drinks.

Initially, breaking away from a SO is terrible and there is separation anxiety and fear - no matter how bad things get between the couple ultimately driving the two apart in the first place. BUT, now that he is trying to work things out and win my trust and security back I'm unsure whether that is possible.

YOU HAVE TO GIVE YOURSELF SOME SPACE. Talk with your friends - at least one of them knows what is happening, right? Have some nights in with your buds and chill out. Whether its having lots of wine, watching movies, gossipping, whatever you should give yourself a break.

Sadly, this break may show you what you fear most - that you KNOW its not right.

We only have this life and you really dont want to be married, WITH CHILDREN, and find one day he does this to them, do you? Can you trust he will give you a nurturing home and take care of you emotionally? What happens when others pick up on his behavior . What happens when your friends become disgusted with it and you are finally alone?

Dating is a honeymoon and marriage is the real thing.

I've been posting recently, and maybe if you read mine you'd think, "wow, she's nuts!" If so, good! Its so much easier to see the truth when its not you.

Good luck to you! (good luck to me).

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2004
Fri, 02-18-2005 - 9:58am
One step forward and two steps back.....
You're in a vicious cycle and to be honest, it almost sounds as though you thrive on it. I know why you haven't given your family the whole story. If you do, it will certainly be followed by the question "Why in the hell are you still with him?" And for that question, you simply do not have an answer that is acceptable. There IS NO acceptable answer. Having that question posed to you, by your family, no less, puts the responsibility (NOT blame) on YOU. Logically, they would expect/encourage/insist that you leave RIGHT NOW. For the whole story to be out there, you know that it would do so many things to the dynamics of your life: your family would worry, you'd have someone you'd have to look at (versus an annonymous message board) to answer to, it'd cause discomfort/hatred/confrontation with your family and your boyfriend. Lord knows, you don't want that, because if HE'S confronted, you KNOW he'll just walk away. It's nothing to him. You mean nothing to him. You serve a purpose in his life. Period. It's not a good purpose, it's not good for you, it's degrading to you, it's driving you ballistic. When the two of you got in your car to leave the counseling session, it's as though you had some unspoken decision to make it the two of you against the counselor. As though he were crazy to even suggest that it might be better if you do cut the ties that bind. This is not a joke. He's very cunning and calculating....he KNOWS that you're going to take his side and he KNOWS you're going to run to his defense if he's attacked. You saw that session as an attack. Let me ask you this: If he were to stumble upon this string of damn near 200 posts and read them and recognize you and him....how would he react? There are two options here, Myrinalyn: he would be in total shock that the love of his life would view him this way and have other people believe that and call him for what he is. He would come to you and say, "I love you too much to hurt you like this. My God, what have I done? Look, I'm so damaged. Let's physically split up and give one another time. I need some heavy duty counseling. I can't bear to live knowing I am responsible for all of this. I love you and because I love you, I need to cut you loose until I can work through this. Let's see where we are in a year's time." OR would he say, "You stupid bitch. You're telling people that I do this and I do that? You lying little twit. How dare you tell someone else what goes on in MY home in MY life?! You get back on that board right now and tell them you were wrong!!" Honestly, I think we all know the answer to that one. Further, he would call every soul who's ever posted on this string everything from "stupid bitches who don't know a thing" to "meddling" to God knows what else. Think about it. You're making a mistake. Having said that, however, you're just not there. You're going through the motions and you think that you're real close to taking a step that's going to shake some sense into him and make him see how "serious" you are. My guess is that you're only serious to the extent of wanting him to think you are. You have this image in your head that sooner or later, he's going to look at the boxes or look at the lease of a new place for yourself and have one of those "Man! She's serious!" and then for him to recognize what he has and to become who you want him to be. Let me know how that goes.
iVillage Member
Registered: 07-23-2002
Fri, 02-18-2005 - 11:21am

I just received the book yesterday.

~Live to be happy~Be happy to live~

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-23-2002
Fri, 02-18-2005 - 11:32am
You are right, he would act exactly as you described about his negative reaction to me posting on this board.

~Live to be happy~Be happy to live~

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2004
Fri, 02-18-2005 - 12:27pm
You are still in the "salvage" mode with this relationship (or lack of), when you really should be making "saving" YOU...NOT the relationship. There's nothing there to save. I know how your parents must have felt....helpless, confused, the "pins and needles" feelings one gets when watching someone they love go through something like that and not only NOT being able to help, but wondering why that person doesn't help HERSELF. My parents put two and two together, as well. When I finally got out of my marriage, my daddy looked for my ex husband for two solid months. Had he found him, I know in my heart with one hundred percent accuracy that he would have killed him. I prayed that Daddy wouldn't find him. Not because I wanted to protect the ex, but I didn't want my daddy to have to live with that. THAT is rock bottom. Daddy carried his 9mm those two months. I know he would've done it in a heaven's heartbeat and not only not thought twice, but would never have regretted it. You can color this any shade of red that you want, but it still boils down to what it is. You can't change it. It's to the point now that you can't even justify it. I suspect that you're having a problem justifying it even to yourself. Take your friend's offer. Use that key. Walk away while you still can. This is bordering on insanity, Myrinalyn. You've justified, excused, ran from, hid from and danced around this long enough.
iVillage Member
Registered: 09-09-2004
Fri, 02-18-2005 - 1:21pm

<<< You are still in the "salvage" mode with this relationship (or lack of), when you really should be making "saving" YOU...NOT the relationship. There's nothing there to save. >>>>

Great statement! And so so true! Myrinalyn - you said once in one of your posts that the counselor said you were a "Thrill-Seeker" and that you crave the roller coaster ride that these relationships give you. Well I think it's that you don't know "HOW" to get off the roller coaster ride. You are still doing exactly what your mind-set (and personality) has always done in this and your past relationships. Isn't that the definition of insanity? You keep doing the same things over and over again hoping for different results. You've been seeing the same therapist who obviously hasn't helped you. You made a postive step in reaching out on this message board in the hopes to try and get another perspective. Well you've got about 10 other peoples perspective and frankly - all of us have been telling the same thing. Move Out & Move On!

Whatever reason(s) your BF has abuse issues and you've got self-esteem issues is clearly a toxic mix for disaster. You two cannot be together. When I went to counseling she said to me: When you get 1/2 of a person together with another 1/2 of a person - you expect the outcome to become a whole. It works in math but not in people. You CANNOT take two halves and make a whole relationship. Both people need to come together as close to two as possible. Does that make sense?

hello
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 02-18-2005 - 11:32pm

Ok, so with your last response to me we've established that you do recognize that this is an abuse situation and that your boyfriend is an abuser. That's good. Honestly? You need to tell your parents. Why? Because you need to be able to hold yourself accountable for the decisions you make and as long as you keep it a secret from them you can pretend right along with them that this isn't happening. By telling them the truth you also have to look them in the eyes and explain what you're doing about it, why you're still there, etc. Keeping it a secret is a cop-out, it lets you pretend and it lets you live a lie. You should also recognize that if your parents know the truth they will be much more aware if something should happen to you, instead of ignoring the fact they haven't heard from you in a few days, they'd check up. That could save you from being beat to death, or near death. It could save your life. Keeping the secret gives the abuse power. Telling the truth gives you power.




I'm glad you're reading the book, it's important that you read it. Yes, it's true that abuse is about how the person is and not something that can be changed. Yes, it is true that anger management doesn't help because it's not an anger management problem. Myrinalyn, these are things we've told you over and over. You're just a little bit off in your thinking that the abuser is just abusive to one person. The abuser will be abusive to any partner he is in a relationship with. It's a mindset,a way of operating. If your ex-husband has moved onto another relationship you can be certain that she is suffering from the exact same treatment that you did. Does what you've read so far help you realize that it's not you, you're not driving him to be this way? The comment your boyfriend's friend made to you should clue you in. People see how your boyfriend is and don't know why you'd stay with him -- and it's likely the friend was talking about the rude, controlling, demeaning, belittling way he treats women in general as well as how he treats you, and the friend probably has no idea about the abuse. There is no point in telling your boyfriend. It won't make any difference, other than to make him angry and probably blame you for "telling his friend something" or making him so mad that he "went off on you in front of him". It would be your fault, you'd be ruining his friendship, his reputation, his life. Just know that even his friends don't think you should be there -- and again -- this is without knowing about the abuse.




In your response to Cat5cane you listed the reasons you were moving out as "I think he is still going out with his friends and it makes me feel like I am not his priority. Also, when scheduling for next weeks counseling session he didn't want to go on Wed. because it was his only day off." Your reasons should be about a lot more than his going out with the guys on Saturday or balking at one counseling appointment. It should be because he's abusive and will always be abusive. He treats you like crap, doesn't consider your feelings, disregards you, disrespects you and much, much more. Yes, the two things you cite are examples of disrespect, uncaring and added proof that he does what he wants, it's all about him and it always will be. But leaving isn't about these two incidents. If it is, that means if he says, "I've changed my mind, I'm not going out with the guys and that counseling session on Wednesday is just fine" you'd drop all plans to move and think everything was wonderful, and would continue to be wonderful for ever and ever. You don't really believe that, do you? It works great in Disney movies, but not in reality. You keep asking questions like, "Shouldn't he want to go with me if we are working on things." You know the answer is yes. You continue to show that you know how it should be, how he should act, but you seem to stop short there. You don't seem to make the leap between "He should be interested and active in making our relationship better" to "if this relationship were right and good he would want to make it better, he would want to support me emotionally, he'd care how I felt. Since he doesn't, clearly there's no point in continuing". And that's not taking the abuse into account at all. No abuse is okay, not once, not a little bit, not ever. None. At the first sign of abuse you should leave any relationship, period.

~ cl-2nd_life


"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."

~ Author unknown








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"

Pages