Thinking out loud
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| Tue, 12-13-2005 - 11:15am |
I was getting so stressed trying to figure out what to do that I made a promise to myself that unless the answer was SO clear, I was not going to make a decision on anything before June. Not that it means I ignore and am not allowed to talk about things, just that I stop trying to figure out if I can handle things the way they are now or not. So now when things happen I'm taking special note of them for consideration later, if needed.
I thought I would explain all that before I start thinking out loud.
In early November DH "borrowed" money from his mom. I was looking at our bank account one day and noticed an odd deposit. I called and asked and after a moments silence, DH told me he had "borrowed" the money from her. I thanked him for telling me the truth and hung up. Then I called his mom and let her know, because I could tell his idea of "borrow" was not with permission. (His mom had sent us her money to keep up here because she didn't trust SILs DH to stay out of it (SIL was on the account down there). MIL has been going through cancer treatments for the last 18 months and she needed someone to be able to get into her account and send her $$ if she needed it but wasn't able to get to the bank. She asked US to guard it for her and we agreed.) Because she hasn't worked in almost 2 years and this is ALL her $$, and because WE agreed to keep it, etc I called to tell her what had happened so SHE could make the best judgement about what to do with the remainder. During the call we also decided the best thing for DH would be if he fessed up on his own, so I decided not to tell him I had told her.
Fast forward a few weeks and all along you have me telling DH that he should tell his mom that he took money from her. He always refused saying that she didn't need to know. He would replace it before she ever found out. One, that isn't the point, and two, like HOW? Top it off but he didn't even tell me we were short at all or ask anyone else for help or advice and also didn't have a problem with me buying him a birthday present (he was there when I did. And this is another part of the story I'll get to in a bit.) He would get very upset with me for trying to be his conscience when I would tell him that his mom deserved to know. Even went so far as to tell me that he thought I would be the first person to turn him in if he robbedd a bank. Dang right I would be! And then he said how that was totally unsupportive and unloving of me and instead I should understand what would drive him to the point of desperation and support him. (WT????) Doesn't even factor in that would mean that BOTH of our kids parents would be in jail AND it's WRONG to rob a bank.
So everytime I bring up his mom and the money DH gets really annoyed at me. REALLY annoyed. One night I was talking about it again (I thought he thought it was wrong to borrow the $$ and that he just didn't want his mom to think poorly of him.) and asked if he was ever going to tell her and he said no, that she didn't need to know. (He also HATED it when I called it stealing.) He also said that while it wasn't the best thing to do, it didn't hurt anyone (Hello? My trust of him?) and that there really wasn't anything wrong with it because the $$ was just sitting there and we needed it. I could tell that he meant what he said when he said he was not ever going to tell her, so I went ahead and told him (after some time, not right that instant) that I had told her because I thought she needed to know since it was HER $$. So then he gets really ticked because it wasn't my place to tell her (I disagree. I'm also the one who deals almost 100% with his mom now, have been for the last 4-5 years). And every time his mom gets mentioned since then (she just had surgery yesterday for an infection in her knee from treatments, not like we can NOT talk about her) he gets ROYALLY ticked off at me for telling her that he took her money. And on top of it all, his mom wants to tell him that the "debt" is forgiven and not to worry about it because she doesn't want him to stress or us to fight about it. (Can we say enabling?) I've gotten her to agree to hold off on that.
On top of this, we can't talk about money much at all. He gets annoyed talking about it. I view money very differently than he does. We have always had what we needed and I believe that we will continue to have what we need. I'm the only one in the family who goes without so it's not like DH and the kids are suffering. Sure, Christmas is tight and we can't just do whatever but so what? My family is what is important to me and I can be happy without money but not without my family, KWIM? DH says that he feels bad and wants me to be able to buy what I need/want for me. Thing is, if we have any extra money then it gets spent on other things unless I say, I have to have this. I don't get if his main motivation is giving me the things I need WHY am I in need and he gets birthday presents? We couldn't afford a birthday present for me this year so I went without. Which is okay because we couldn't afford it. I spent my birthday money from my dad on getting a haircut since it had been so long since I had had one. Then he steals money from his mom, and lets me buy him a present when we OBVIOUSLY can't afford it. It makes no logical sense the way he's explaining it. (I do get what it means though.) Anyway, DH gets stressed out about money and gets moody and cranky because of it but on the other hand, he doesn't try and get more overtime for work. I've told him to get overtime or stop complaining. (They can work 12 hour days any day and overtime hits after 40 hours a week.) (I know this goes to his whole entitled thing and not wanting to do the work.) He even came home this past week with something and I got upset because we can't afford it and he told me point blank that he wants to be able to have a life (or something close.)
There are a whole host of things that I'm not able to bring up anymore without DH getting upset. I can't talk about our marriage problems because I bring them up all the time and he doesn't want to deal with them all the time. Which I actually get so I have cut back. It can't be all we talk about and deal with. I know the reason I was bringing it up so much is that nothing ever gets resolved or even progresses. But I did stop that. I don't talk about how I feel anymore either other than to tell him. No more trying to get him to see why or anything like that.
I guess I'm just really seeing that we have totally different morals and values now. Which I should have seen coming but who would have thought that getting to the point of stealing from your sick mom being okay would have happened? And does he really think it's okay or is he just trying to justify it? And then I have to wonder how many other things does he do that he thinks are okay as long as no one finds out about it?
I also found out that there are people at our church who have really noticed things. (My sister went there before she moved out of state and has a lot of friends there.) They have been approaching her asking her what is wrong with my DH. I was able to figure out one of them (cause I'm smart) and went up to talk to her. She said that DH looks p.o.'d all the time, that she hates the snappy, mean way he deals with the kids, that she doesn't like the way he talks to me, and when she sees him coming she wants to run the other way. (I wanted to make sure she didn't witness something I didn't know about. PLus, I wanted to know what she HAD seen to make her think this way, etc.) She mentioned another person and another instance. And I feel wonderful thinking that there are women out there who are pitying me because of my DH. And that he is a big part of the reason I don't have many friends here. People are avoiding him. Dh just doesn't see where people would think these things of him (go figure) but he did say that he would go to counseling on his own. And I told him that I wasn't going to be patient and understanding this time around. (He's agreed to things before then will list reasons why it just couldn't happen and I am the evil, horrible one for thinking if it was important he would have done it.) So I let him know if he doesn't do it, I'm NOT going to be sympathetic. Even with the holidays here, etc.
I know this is HUGE now. I apologize for that. A lot of this has been swimming around in my head and I wanted to put it down somewhere so I could sort through it better. I do not recognize the man I am married to. I look at him and wonder who he is. I cannot predict with any degree of certainty what he is going to think or do in a given situation. I have a few I still think I could get it right on, but I thought that about the $$ with his mom thing. And in spite of all this, I want things to have a happy ending. I am realistic enough to realize that at this rate and in this direction it won't happen. Unless I compromise. But would I be compromising or giving up who I am?
Jen

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People do what they do because they want to do it. Their values, standards and ethics justify and entitle them to their actions, feelings, thoughts, decisions, words, ideas, and desires. Those same values in all situations determine character, conscience, integrity and honor.
So we all do what we want, because we believe it's right and our right - in light of what we're trying to achieve or get.
To you "enough on an occasionally tight budget" is normal....to him he's entitled to anyting he can get anywhere, from any source, becuase there will never be "enough" for him to have everything he's entitled to have.
"People do not get fired for making mistakes. We are all human. People do get fired for unethical conduct. It's not always easy to do the right thing, but it's always necessary to do the right thing."
Basically, thre's no resolution to this.
He wants everything he can get, via any method. Anything you don't agree with - he doesn't want ot hear not because he feels guilt or shame, but because you're not cooperating. If you're not cooperating you're presenting an obstruction he has to work to get around.
At the bottom line - the man doesn't wnat to "work" - he wants everything for free. And he can't see that he works twice as hard getting things unethically and immorally - than he would if he just worked for it.
But "work" is the four letter word that he is out to avoid. HE's entitled to WAY MORE than he's got and can ever earn...and so evrybody is now supposed to allow him access to thier options and providership without obligation to him.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
I guess I'm just hung up on, is this the real him or was the guy I knew the real him? I know this is who he is now, I just don't know if this is how he is going to stay. So, do I try and wait it out (I don't even know if it's possible) or what.... I know I have to "accept" that this is him, now. But since he's changed, or at least gotten worse, I don't know if he's going to change again. I guess that's where my confusion lies.
Jen
Why do you think anything has "changed"?
You'd have to be specific.
But basically - we all use the same reasoning process and values system in all situations to determine what to do.
People that lie to the boss to spend a day at the beach with you. They lie. They believe it's right to lie in order to have pleasure or fun or benefit in some way.
That it's working in your best interest when he wants to spend a day at the eaach with you...when what he doesn't want to do that you want him to do arises, he'll just as easily lie to you.
There's no "people or titles" that are off limits to being lied to if values justify lying to eliminate consequences or gain benefit.
So basically, I think it's very possible he didn't really 'change'. It's just that you thought you were special and exempt from the negative consequences of his values system that justify his actions. You thought "he'd never do that to me because".....alot of times when what he's done you didn't agree with, or seem to understand why he thought that was right.
You're now simply finding out nobody is exempt from his values or reasoning patterns.......they're impacted by alliance, but that's all it is. Sometimes impact is pleasant...sometimes it's not.
But think also about this....how easy is it to put on an act, be on your best behavior, and put your best foot forward at first...and have all that "work" fade to black as an effort over time....compared to how difficult it would be to do the reverse.
What benefit would it be to him to have done these sorts of thing from the inception......and realistically how possible would it have been for you to know in the beginning anyway? in the early 6-9 months of dating there's infatuation which lessens objectivity and discernment, and there's more you don't know about thier daily lives and doings - than what you do know anyay.
If you're wanting for the 'act" to resume.....how realistic is that...and logically - would you want it. If it can be dropped once....and reinstated once...it can be repeated and flip flopped ad finitum.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
My reality, for myself, is that I am who I am. I don't put on an act, I don't pretend to be one thing to woo someone over and then let it drop. I am who I am, period. So it has been hard for me to realize that who he was and who he is are different. I have always taken people at face value and I did the same with him. I am realizing it is naive to think that everyone is also going to be this way. I never thought of myself as naive before.
<>
I'm not like this and it's just hurting to realize he is. I'm a very black and white person on most things being right or wrong. And when he was more straight-laced than I was when we met, I just assumed he'd be that way too. And you know what they say about assuming...
I don't want an act. I want the reality I want. :) And yes, I know I can't make him change.
Jen
Well, realize that what would cause people to be consistent in their actions, decisions, words, opinions and pursuits - would be living by a standard that says "I do the right thing according to my beliefs and values at all times and handle the result".
How complete, secure, self-aware, and responsible, how much you think you need cooperation, alliance, and assistance to get what you want in life - would determine if you're able to do that.
Otherwise, it's just not difficult to tell people waht they want to hear, if it'll get you what you want, and cause very little upset at this moment.
I doubt seriously you didn't realize he was living with his "feelings and needs" in the reasoning pattern he used in life till now.
It's possible...but not likely.
I'm sure you thought you were exempt.....and now you're finding out you're not. That hurts, but it is how it is.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
As much as we've been agreeing lately, you should be scared that I'm here :) I'll also tell you I agree with everything Wingblade's said.
I think deciding not to make a decision until June is often a very smart way to handle things. It's not avoidance or procrastination, it's a matter of giving yourself and the situation enough time for clarity. Lots of times, especially when you're dealing with a new realization, it takes time for it to soak in, know clearly what you think about it and know what the best way to proceed is. It's important to take that time. You know how you feel about it right now, but you don't know how you'll feel after having had time to sit with it.
Gotta tell you, I think your argument about bank robbery is silly. I mean, it's not going to happen, riiiight? It also seems clear your objectives in this hypothetical situation is different, you're looking at being ethical and keeping the kids safe (not going down as an Accessory After the Fact or Possession of Stolen Bank Funds) while he's looking at keeping his rear out of prison. To heck with the kids, this is his hiney you're talking about! Besides, Bonnie would never have given up her Clyde :)
I know you think he's changed, but don't you think it was there all along? His childhood as you've described it and the way his mother treats him is completely consistent with what you're describing in him here. He's always been the golden child, worthy and deserving of whatever he wants. If I remember correctly, his mother even indicated to you how very lucky you were to be with him. All the while he was growing up he never had to do or earn anything, it was handed to him or done for him. He was raised to believe he should have everything he wants. I would bet a few things clouded your perception of him. One is that you were quite young when you married (yeah, I know, an old subject between us). You weren't old enough, mature enough or experienced in people and life experiences enough to recognize the signs that this was a part of him. Another is that this attitude of his that seems to have evolved over time has probably just become more and more apparent as circumstances make it more evident. During dating and in your early years you were almost certainly wanting to please him and doted on him (not a criticism, we were all there), it was what you wanted to do, but it also fed exactly that entitled part of him. As your relationship got more mature and changed with kids, responsibility, etc., your focus naturally changed. Not only was he not pampered at the center but more demands were being made of him too. As you've gone along, more children, more responsibility, more demands and expectations have been put on him (and you too). As this comes to be, his entitled attitude shows more and more, his disappointment, unhappiness, dissolution all become more and more evident as things continue to not go the way he expects they should. It may be too that he's shoved some of his thoughts and feelings but is being more and more vocal about them, making it appear that this is a new part of his character. I just think his actions and what you've described all fit very neatly.
As far as morals and values and the money go, I think if he didn't believe he was entitled to do it he wouldn't have done it in the first place. And if he had, he would have replaced it or confessed because he wouldn't have felt right about his actions, wouldn't have been able to live with it. But that's not been his stand. He's consistently argued that it's no big deal, he is entitled and continues to hold that it hasn't hurt anybody, as though somehow that makes it all okay. I don't think that would be the case if he was wrestling with his conscience over this.
Compromise is important in a relationship, but your values and morals aren't things you can compromise on. Your convictions are what your convictions are, your beliefs are your beliefs. To try to live in a way that conflicts with your beliefs would have you struggling against yourself, because living in a way that goes against what you believe is right is living at a cost to your real self.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown
"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Believe it or not, I've been chewing on what Erin said all day yesterday. I wasn't seeing it from the examples she used but when I read through your post, it fit together much better.
I hope the whole argument about him robbing a bank is silly. I HOPE it doesn't happen. That would continue to floor me. But it seems to be important to him to know that I would never turn him in for doing something wrong. I just keep getting the feeling that in order for him to feel like I love him I have to let him do whatever he wants to or thinks he needs to and NOT have an opinion about it. Unfortunately he picked the wrong chick to marry there. I'm a little too strong-willed. Anyway, I was just incredulous when he brought it up. Still am.
I do think a part of the reason I didn't see all this is he did/does shove his thoughts and feelings down and doesn't deal with them. He has never felt that he could disagree with his parents (especially his dad), so he never did. (I don't know if this matters but in my personal, totally nonmedical opinion, his dad has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. At least he has every one of the "symptoms" I read about.) Hell would break loose if he ever differed with his dad. Honestly I do not think he would have ever broken free of that on his own. I think he would still be in the same spot he was 10 years ago if we hadn't gotten married. ANYWAY, I think when we were first dating and married it was the same with us. He'd learned not to disagree and so he never did, even if he did internally. I stupidly and erroneously (some sarcasm there) assumed that would mean that he agreed.
Now, before you all tell me that having dated longer and such would have meant that I could have seen these things about his family, etc. His parents' best friends live one mile from my dad now. I've known them since I was 14. They are now close friends with my dad and have been since I was 19 or so. My dad has been talking with them lately (a bit, not much) and even they are floored. Doesn't mean I couldn't have had more clues, just that I'm not stupid. Or at least that I'm not the only stupid one. :) There has been a lot of crap since I have come into the picture that has come to light. In all honesty, I have said over and over that if I had known his parents better before we were married, I doubt I would have married him. But the way I know his parents also would NOT have happened before I married him. They are VERy big on appearances and are VERY good at their act. And it's now neither here nor there.
I can see though, like I said, that his actions now fit his history. He may have always been this way but they are definitely getting more vocal and stronger. That has thrown me. My dad has said that he always had the opinion that DH was unmotivated and expected things to fall into his lap, that he prefers playing to atually getting anything done, that his dream jobs would be either a Serta mattress tester or a Parker Bros game tester. Which fits too. But it is getting worse. And I can see where it's a reaction (it getting worse, not being there to begin with) to life. He isn't where he thinks he should be at this stage of life but he hasn't done anything to get there (IMO). He does think that I should dote on him. He doesn't view it as doting and I view it as having yet another child to take care of. He has said that since he takes care of himself (makes his own breakfast, lunch, does laundry, etc) that he feels like he's single. So.... his idea of a marriage is being taken care of. I think he's just being an adult. And yes, it does hurt very much. I'm not being a good wife because I don't take care of him. Yet he doesn't need to take care of me. It's my job to take care of myself and I'm bad for not taking care of him. And while he probably has always felt this way, he waited over 9 years of marriage to pull it out. Or to verbalize it in a way that I understood the message he was sending.
I am getting mad now. (Not just in the post, but IRL.) He continually lets me sacrifice for the family and the kids and then he gets what he wants. He promised me X for Mother's Day and I didn't get it because he lost his job. I didn't get anything for my birthday cause he was unemployed and we couldn't afford it. (They are close together). I ask if I can get shoes and clothes for me and am told we can afford it but then we will be broke, so I skip it to leave wiggle room in the budget. And then he spends $10 on one lunch instead of taking his lunch, picks up stuff from the store and overbuys (little amounts, nothing huge), lets me get him birthday presents, etc etc. I am tired of being the only one who is scriping and sacrificing so we can do things as a family or so things aren't so tight. I know he isn't living large, but he is living larger than we can support. Or if not, if we can support it, then it needs divided in a more equitable manner.
I know I'm just going off now. And rambling. But like I said, I'm just thinking out loud now. I just don't know if he could change at this point of his life even if he wanted to. And while he says he wants our marriage to work, I don't think he's willing to DO anything. Which then makes me evil so why should he try if that's what I expect?
We SOOOO need counseling. Even then I have my doubts....
I think I'm going to go eat breakfast.
Jen
Get a grasp on "entitlement" in an addictive personality - and you'lll understand him perfectly.
It wont' change anything.....it'll be more of your time spent there trying to figure out what you can't change........but if that's your choice - go for it.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
I understand he feels entitled but I'm missing the addictive personality part. Why do you say he has an addictive personality?
Jen
Edited to add: I Googled addictive personality and I just don't see it. He doesn't do these things to induce a certain state of happiness, he does them because he thinks he can. He also LEARNED these behaviors etc while growing up. I may think that they are detrimental, etc (and so may others) but he was told over and over and over in his formative years that this was the way he was SUPPOSED to be. That isn't an addictive personality.
Edited 12/14/2005 11:26 am ET by imasillynut
Entitlement is a huge part of the addictive thinking pattern.
An addict is simply this - having been one........I'm entitled to more than I"ve got as a result of all I've been thru".
Now....apply that with drugs or booze - and you can see why they see nothing wrong with using to excess. They're entitled to this "relief" - and whatever the results/consequences are of their actions - that's someone else's problem. They'll just get more "relief" - while you deal with the problem.
Apply that to your situation...using a specific - his taking he money from his mother, being mad at you for calling it stealing (which it is), and refusing to discuss it, being mad at you for telling her.....he doesn't think this is "wrong" to do - this is right and his right in light of what life hasn't given him "at no charge".
That's why addiction is not "to a substance or an activity" - it's to a thinking pattern and this is one of the many twists dysfunctionally in it - that allows justifications and rationalizations to allow whatever "feels good and gets me what I want right now".
That's why enabling an addict....doesn't cure an addict. Itsimply feeds the thinking pattern of what they truly believe.
That they're entitled to more than they have and should have to work for. As a result - everything out there that hasn't got a price tag attached, and handcuffs going on their arms if they "take it" free of charge - is thiers. It's their right, and it is right - for them to take it - they should have had it - had life been "fair".
That's all he's doing. And he's done it all along. Whatever gets him what he wants (and if you do NOT predict what it is he's after when he takes or uses you'd see it clearly), he does it. That's just "how it is".
Over the years he's justified lying - because nobody tells the truth, or because this fact isn't relevant, or they just don't need to know. He's got the "omission isn't a lie" going as a blanket justification. Thre's a ton you can omit and never be a liar - with that running in your head!
He's justified cheating....on the taxes, on the tips at the table, shortchanging you and the children of his time and his abilities.
All you're seeing here is one "ideal situation"....it's what enablers dread having happen to active addicts because they've worked so hard to keep options and opportunities to a limited number.
He's finally in a situation where he has unlimited access without restraint to something that would benefit him in any realm - based on whatever suits him at the moment. His mother's money.
And he doesn't believe he owes her loyalty, or to repay her trust in his management by being upright and ethical with the funds.
So now he's got the funding to basically do whatever he wants, whenever he wants...and hwen it leaves her stranded without funds or assistance in her condition - oh well, that's just how things go...he didn't "intend" for this to happen - it has....so someone else deal with it.
That's hte other huge tipoff about his thinking pattern in your post...he wants to be judged by his intentions (to repay it without her knowing it was ever missing)...rather than by his actions.
And so everytime you bring up what he's done - he's angry beyond belief. and if you were to go and talk about his "intentions" - he'd believe you were condoning his actions. Because I"m sure he "does" intend to pay...it's just that realistically he can't - if he was financially solvent, he wouldn't have needed to borrow it in the first place.
Or, as someone said 10 years ago at my 3rd AA meeting when someone was carrying on about they didn't think it was fair their wife left, and took the kids and house because this guy didn't 'intend" to become a drunk it just happened....and now she was getting everything in the divorce and he was left with nothing how unfair.....one guy sober 20+ years looked over at him and said "Intentions don't mean crap. Actions do. How many people in here intended to end up in here when they started drinking".
I got the point...I'm not sure so the guy he was talking to did however.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
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