Thinking out loud

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Registered: 03-25-2003
Thinking out loud
15
Tue, 12-13-2005 - 11:15am

I was getting so stressed trying to figure out what to do that I made a promise to myself that unless the answer was SO clear, I was not going to make a decision on anything before June. Not that it means I ignore and am not allowed to talk about things, just that I stop trying to figure out if I can handle things the way they are now or not. So now when things happen I'm taking special note of them for consideration later, if needed.

I thought I would explain all that before I start thinking out loud.

In early November DH "borrowed" money from his mom. I was looking at our bank account one day and noticed an odd deposit. I called and asked and after a moments silence, DH told me he had "borrowed" the money from her. I thanked him for telling me the truth and hung up. Then I called his mom and let her know, because I could tell his idea of "borrow" was not with permission. (His mom had sent us her money to keep up here because she didn't trust SILs DH to stay out of it (SIL was on the account down there). MIL has been going through cancer treatments for the last 18 months and she needed someone to be able to get into her account and send her $$ if she needed it but wasn't able to get to the bank. She asked US to guard it for her and we agreed.) Because she hasn't worked in almost 2 years and this is ALL her $$, and because WE agreed to keep it, etc I called to tell her what had happened so SHE could make the best judgement about what to do with the remainder. During the call we also decided the best thing for DH would be if he fessed up on his own, so I decided not to tell him I had told her.

Fast forward a few weeks and all along you have me telling DH that he should tell his mom that he took money from her. He always refused saying that she didn't need to know. He would replace it before she ever found out. One, that isn't the point, and two, like HOW? Top it off but he didn't even tell me we were short at all or ask anyone else for help or advice and also didn't have a problem with me buying him a birthday present (he was there when I did. And this is another part of the story I'll get to in a bit.) He would get very upset with me for trying to be his conscience when I would tell him that his mom deserved to know. Even went so far as to tell me that he thought I would be the first person to turn him in if he robbedd a bank. Dang right I would be! And then he said how that was totally unsupportive and unloving of me and instead I should understand what would drive him to the point of desperation and support him. (WT????) Doesn't even factor in that would mean that BOTH of our kids parents would be in jail AND it's WRONG to rob a bank.

So everytime I bring up his mom and the money DH gets really annoyed at me. REALLY annoyed. One night I was talking about it again (I thought he thought it was wrong to borrow the $$ and that he just didn't want his mom to think poorly of him.) and asked if he was ever going to tell her and he said no, that she didn't need to know. (He also HATED it when I called it stealing.) He also said that while it wasn't the best thing to do, it didn't hurt anyone (Hello? My trust of him?) and that there really wasn't anything wrong with it because the $$ was just sitting there and we needed it. I could tell that he meant what he said when he said he was not ever going to tell her, so I went ahead and told him (after some time, not right that instant) that I had told her because I thought she needed to know since it was HER $$. So then he gets really ticked because it wasn't my place to tell her (I disagree. I'm also the one who deals almost 100% with his mom now, have been for the last 4-5 years). And every time his mom gets mentioned since then (she just had surgery yesterday for an infection in her knee from treatments, not like we can NOT talk about her) he gets ROYALLY ticked off at me for telling her that he took her money. And on top of it all, his mom wants to tell him that the "debt" is forgiven and not to worry about it because she doesn't want him to stress or us to fight about it. (Can we say enabling?) I've gotten her to agree to hold off on that.

On top of this, we can't talk about money much at all. He gets annoyed talking about it. I view money very differently than he does. We have always had what we needed and I believe that we will continue to have what we need. I'm the only one in the family who goes without so it's not like DH and the kids are suffering. Sure, Christmas is tight and we can't just do whatever but so what? My family is what is important to me and I can be happy without money but not without my family, KWIM? DH says that he feels bad and wants me to be able to buy what I need/want for me. Thing is, if we have any extra money then it gets spent on other things unless I say, I have to have this. I don't get if his main motivation is giving me the things I need WHY am I in need and he gets birthday presents? We couldn't afford a birthday present for me this year so I went without. Which is okay because we couldn't afford it. I spent my birthday money from my dad on getting a haircut since it had been so long since I had had one. Then he steals money from his mom, and lets me buy him a present when we OBVIOUSLY can't afford it. It makes no logical sense the way he's explaining it. (I do get what it means though.) Anyway, DH gets stressed out about money and gets moody and cranky because of it but on the other hand, he doesn't try and get more overtime for work. I've told him to get overtime or stop complaining. (They can work 12 hour days any day and overtime hits after 40 hours a week.) (I know this goes to his whole entitled thing and not wanting to do the work.) He even came home this past week with something and I got upset because we can't afford it and he told me point blank that he wants to be able to have a life (or something close.)

There are a whole host of things that I'm not able to bring up anymore without DH getting upset. I can't talk about our marriage problems because I bring them up all the time and he doesn't want to deal with them all the time. Which I actually get so I have cut back. It can't be all we talk about and deal with. I know the reason I was bringing it up so much is that nothing ever gets resolved or even progresses. But I did stop that. I don't talk about how I feel anymore either other than to tell him. No more trying to get him to see why or anything like that.

I guess I'm just really seeing that we have totally different morals and values now. Which I should have seen coming but who would have thought that getting to the point of stealing from your sick mom being okay would have happened? And does he really think it's okay or is he just trying to justify it? And then I have to wonder how many other things does he do that he thinks are okay as long as no one finds out about it?

I also found out that there are people at our church who have really noticed things. (My sister went there before she moved out of state and has a lot of friends there.) They have been approaching her asking her what is wrong with my DH. I was able to figure out one of them (cause I'm smart) and went up to talk to her. She said that DH looks p.o.'d all the time, that she hates the snappy, mean way he deals with the kids, that she doesn't like the way he talks to me, and when she sees him coming she wants to run the other way. (I wanted to make sure she didn't witness something I didn't know about. PLus, I wanted to know what she HAD seen to make her think this way, etc.) She mentioned another person and another instance. And I feel wonderful thinking that there are women out there who are pitying me because of my DH. And that he is a big part of the reason I don't have many friends here. People are avoiding him. Dh just doesn't see where people would think these things of him (go figure) but he did say that he would go to counseling on his own. And I told him that I wasn't going to be patient and understanding this time around. (He's agreed to things before then will list reasons why it just couldn't happen and I am the evil, horrible one for thinking if it was important he would have done it.) So I let him know if he doesn't do it, I'm NOT going to be sympathetic. Even with the holidays here, etc.

I know this is HUGE now. I apologize for that. A lot of this has been swimming around in my head and I wanted to put it down somewhere so I could sort through it better. I do not recognize the man I am married to. I look at him and wonder who he is. I cannot predict with any degree of certainty what he is going to think or do in a given situation. I have a few I still think I could get it right on, but I thought that about the $$ with his mom thing. And in spite of all this, I want things to have a happy ending. I am realistic enough to realize that at this rate and in this direction it won't happen. Unless I compromise. But would I be compromising or giving up who I am?

Jen

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iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-2005
Wed, 12-14-2005 - 11:29am

Don't focus on "addictive personality"...that has a negative spin.
Realize he's conducting himself by the values, in the thinking, reasoning, and action patterns that he was taught "were right and his right".

That's all he's doing.

That it doesn't get him success conventionally doesn't really matter. He's not striving for conventional success in definitive element.

He's simply striving to find situations where what he does work - for the present...so that he doesn't have to change what he does - and gets what he expects as a result of his actions.

Let me guess, he gets really mad and thinks it's unfair he can't get a raise - despite the fact he doesn't do what the people who get raises do.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Thu, 12-15-2005 - 2:18am

Jen, do you honestly think he may consider robbing a bank or something equally criminal? Do you think his upset was of general loyalty or do you think he has criminal thinking errors? Lol to your "he picked the wrong chick" part! And good for you too! Loyalty stops where criminality begins IMO. We could diagnose him to death and never get anywhere -- especially considering we're all "armchair psychologists", but...interesting that you'd say his dad has Narcissistic Personality Traits. Considering you learn and behave as you observed from your parents, it sounds like your husband could easily have gotten some of his entitlement issues from good old dad himself, and probably a lot more as well, as well as from mom. Men are Lords who are worthy and entitled, women are there to adore and serve. Just a passing observation.


I totally hear you on always shorting yourself but constantly seeing that you're the only one doing it. It's a frustrating place to be,I've been there myself. If you say "to hell with it" and get things for yourself you lessen the money available for all because he doesn't stop what he spends either, so in effect, you shortchanging yourself never ends and has no payoff for you, it's as though you're sacrificing to make up for what he selfishly spends. I'm sure you have, but I'll say it anyway...have you sat down and discussed a budget of how much "throw away money" can be spent by each of you, doled out the allotted weekly amount to him and reminded him that when it's gone he's done spending? Have you tried approaching gifts like this: "Since I didn't get a gift on my birthday I was sure you wouldn't feel right about getting one for yours - at least not until after I'd gotten one myself - so I didn't get you anything yet." Lets see how he responds to that one! You can use it for Mothers/Fathers Day or any other special day as well. Or when he says spending on yourself will cut out the wiggle room respond with, "You know, the last several times we've had this very conversation I've not bought anything so that we would have the reserve, but then I see that you don't mind spending unnecessarily on yourself, so I think that I'll just go ahead and buy these things for me now. Jen, it's not like you want special treatment, you just want to matter too. I'm also wondering why he seems to be the one in charge of finances when he's proving to be less than responsible.


Go ahead and "go off" all you want/need. Writing it out can be very helpful and very releasing. It can also help a lot with realization.


I have to tell you too, my son is a little like your husband in some respects and it scares the heck out of me. His high school counselor pegged it exactly: He has dreams, not goals. He knows what he wants but he's not at all interested in putting forth any work to get there. He seems to believe that a fabulous, high paying job and the great lifestyle that goes along with it will be handed to him on a velvet pillow; in the meantime, he can slack and do poorly in school and generally just lay back and wait for it all to be handed to him. I will say the light bulb seems to be going on ever so slightly over the last several months, but not nearly enough!







~ cl-2nd_life

"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."

~ Author unknown









"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Thu, 12-15-2005 - 10:54am

He's in charge of finances because that is one fight I haven't gone through yet. It's coming but I'm trying the "forcing myself into being more involved" way first. And he wasn't always in charge of the finances. When my mom was diagnosed as terminal I went back and stayed with them for 2 months. He took care of those 2 months (actually 3 cause I had been on vacation at my sister's when my mom was listed as terminal.) When I came home I wasn't quite ready to jump into it, then the next month I was sick and pg, 2 months later when the m/s went away my mom died, etc etc. Before I knew it, he'd been doing the finances for a couple of years. Now when I want to talk about me doing it (because I am the better suited one) he refuses to reliquinish control. The reasons why that I've heard are: Because I want to do it, I want to prove to you I can do it, I want to prove to me I can do it, I want to be the one in control, etc. And it's not a fight I've picked yet. If it doesn't stay on track better then I will pick it.

2nd-Life, I don't honestly think he'd rob a bank. I think it's a general loyalty issue that he has. However, I am at the point where I don't trust what I think I know. He's surprised me so often in the last few months that I really wonder if I could predict all that much out of him anymore.

It's funny, he sent me an email that I think was supposed to make me feel better. Though it actually had the opposite effect. For someone so smart he is very thick. Anyway, he said that he knows we need to work on us but he figured that would all get resolved while we work together to raise the kids. Wait, I want to get this right. <sake. I want for us both to feel loved by the other, too. I guess I figure that will work itself out, as we work on the common effort of child-rearing.>>

You know, absolutely EVERYTHING I have heard/read says that you have to put the marriage first. That if all you do is focus on the kids then when they are grown and gone, you will turn around and realize you are married to a stranger and that you HAVE no marriage. That is even looks like a good idea.... But he does acknowledge later that he can work on controlling his temper and moods and we need to get along. WOOHOO! That is what I want to do for the rest of my life! That is the type of marriage I want to be in. I am so excited and motivated now. I think I will do a happy dance! (For those of you who don't know me well enough, there is enough sarcasm there to swamp a boat.) But hey, no matter what he is tethered to me for the next 18 years. (Also a direct quote.) Can you feel the love?

You all must think I am one stupid woman. I reread things I've written and look at things you've written and if I view it as a 3rd party I scratch my head and wonder why this woman puts up with all this. But when I look at it as my life, I just don't have the same thoughts. It's so much harder because I'm so emotionally invested in it. I wonder if I'm stupid or just naive or what. And then I sit back and take a deep breath and think that I don't HAVE to do anything today. I can be Scarlett... I'll just deal with it tomorrow. But then again, I know I will deal with it.

Jen

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-2005
Thu, 12-15-2005 - 11:35am

You might try this:

Step back and evaluate objectively as best you can how he deals with and responds to other people.

NOT people he works with. We put our best foot forward at all times professionally.

But does he really "enjoy people" for who they are......or is he a loner?

If he's a "loner" as you view it - realize that is one of two realities.

That he really doesn't relate emotionally to others - it doesn't indicate he has issues - it simply means he doesn't "need" the emotional bond and connection to the level you do.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 12-16-2005 - 4:21am

First off, I'm glad you don't really think he'd rob a bank. I thought it was a hypothetical, silly thing at first, but in your follow-up post it sounded more serious -- whoa! That's me, slamming on the brakes to take the topic a little more seriously. There are a lot of similarities in criminal thinking, addictive thinking and entitlement type thinking, so when you sounded serious the red flags went up.


I can totally understand why he's in charge of financial and I can understand why it's a battle you have chosen to leave alone, at least for now. I'd be willing to bet an unspoken reason for him wanting to continue to handle the money is so that he is free to spend on himself without you necessarily being aware of what he's doing. I'm not talking major purchases, I'm talking the lunches, etc. He knows you don't agree or approve and he knows it would be a struggle getting the money from you, or at least facing you with his spending.


I have to tell you too, on the money front I've had my own inner battle. My husband buys coffee at work every day, often buys bags of chips, etc. from the vending machines (expensive!) and he wants to stop by Starbucks every time we go out anywhere (I'm talking several times a week). All this drove me crazy, I bring coffee from home to work, it tastes better and it's cheaper, I wouldn't buy from vending machines, I can't justify the expense. Granted, all this is not a lot of money, it's just completely unnecessary IMO. The key in that last sentence was IMO. Then I thought about hair. He refuses to spend more than $10 on a hair cut, whereas by the time I'm done with my cut and highlights, I've spent $90. So...I'm guessing he might just think my spending in that arena is absolutely ridiculous, maybe as ridiculous as I think his coffee spending is (lol). I've kept a better perspective and not let his "frivolous spending" be such a big deal to me since then, and reminding myself of the $$ I spend that I think is perfectly justifiable when in reality it's just as unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. I'm not saying it's the same for you, just letting you know you're not alone in struggling with things.


Yeah, focusing on your kids while your relationship disappears won't exactly be a good thing....as though magically through focusing on kids you'll be bonded together and somehow your relationship will build itself without interaction or work. Seems like he's applying his "get what I want without actually having to do anything to get it" plan. Maybe he has a future in financial infomercials? (sarcasm)


Jen, no one thinks you're stupid. It's so much easier to view things from the outside, to *decide* what should be done when you have no emotion invested. The truth is, black and white is always a lot easier; emotions color things and blur the edges. I'm sure you do the same when you read other posts. You read them and *know* that this guy is going to do "x" again or that the situation is one the OP should get out of. But in our own relationships, we're looking at facts and likelihood and saying, "yeah but..." What you know and what you want are two different things. It's a process. You figure it out along the way and if things don't get better we decide to end it (or not) on our own time frames. If you're going to leave, you'll do so when it feels right to you, when you're ready and not before. Jen, I was in an alcoholic, verbally and emotionally abusive marriage for 17 years for Pete's sake. I'm the poster child for "not until I'm ready". I even used to say to my ex, "Not today, but one day I'll have had enough of this and when that day comes, I'll be gone." What you don't realize is that you are dealing with it, even if you're being Scarlett, you're mulling it over, you're aware of it and you're processing it. When you come to a conclusion and feel you know what's right or you just know what you need to do for you, you'll do it. Until then, you are working on it. And I know you'll be actively doing some harder, more effective work on it when you finally get to your counselor, which I know you want to do. I'm just sorry you're dealing with it.







~ cl-2nd_life

"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."

~ Author unknown









"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"

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