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| Thu, 11-10-2005 - 2:15pm |
OKay, right off, I do understand that I am a bit hormonal right now and seem to be easily aggitated. I even warned everyone because I can tell I'm a bit on edge right now, LOL! I hate hormones....
I just can't win!
So last night DH and I were talking. Seems he thought everything was improving because we weren't "fighting" with each other. So things were getting better in his estimation.
Maybe I should back up a smidge. I realized on Saturday that DH was a bit too disconnected from everything. We had been in an argument for 2 weeks now and I figured the emotional disconnect from him was too great. He'd started saying a couple of things which led me to think that he was just going to give up since we couldn't stop "arguing". (I use the term loosely because any time I tried to bring something up he'd automatically go into over-defensive mode and we honestly couldn't discuss anything sanely.) So I asked him for a hug and a kiss on Saturday and I could tell that helped. He started to plug back in. On Sunday he asked me what one thing I wanted to work on most was and after thinking about it for a few hours I let him know. (He wasn't too happy because he thought it was too broad and he wanted one thing. Ie pick your socks up off the floor instead of laundry overall. Though I can guarantee my one thing had NOTHING to do with cleaning. ;) I even told him that I really felt it was something I needed to improve upon too. And I do.
I was worried with all this because I could tell DH was feeling reconnected and I worried that he would think that since he was, I was too. And I wasn't. I just knew as long as he felt that disconnected he wasn't going to come anywhere close to working on things. Then lo and behold, he tells me last night that he thought everything was improving and that we were getting better. But the one thing I asked hadn't been done, we weren't talking about anything of import (just fluff), and I didn't feel connected or heard or anything. I just hadn't actively been arguing about it.
So what is a girl to do? (I know, I know, COUNSELING. Working on that one.) If I keep things obvious he disconnects and throws his hands up in the air and won't do anything because it doesn't matter and nothing will ever get better anyway. If I back off and do things so he reconnects somewhat, then everything is better. Of course he said he doesn't throw his hands up and give up and then turned right around and did it again last night after I honestly told him how I felt. In the "I feel this way" way, not YOU YOU YOU way.
Not only that, but he's throwing things in my face. He doesn't trust me because I don't trust him. When I asked what I've done so that he doesn't trust me, he says, Nothing. But if you don't trust me... He'll say he understands why I have trust issues given everything and that he views it as reasonable and then will turn around and say it doesn't matter what he says or does since I don't trust him. And then he said last night that he had planned on us spending time last night doing the one thing I had asked about. But he brings this up in the argument (and 4 nights after I had asked without a word about it any other time.) And then he says that he just doesn't feel like doing it now and he's not sure how he's going to feel about it tomorrow. I just said that I thought NOW would be the better time to work on it, since we were having this problem again, but he didn't feel like it.
I do tend to talk and talk and talk. I don't let things drop because I feel like every time I do he assumes it's all been fixed. He got very upset about me not being quiet about things and asked why it felt like I wouldn't be quiet about it and I had a death grip on him. And that's when it hit me. I'm insane. I keep talking (which is a pattern we've established over the years and usually at some point he appears to "get it" though I've since learned it's his way of ending the argument.) But I keep talking about how I feel because I keep hoping that something will click and he will understand how I feel (or at least that I feel that way), validate that it's okay for me to way (though I don't need permission), and give me sincere and heartfelt reassurances that we WILL work through this. So I do it over and over and over and I never get what I need. And I realized I'm insane enough to actually think that it might change the next time around. And I told him I have a death grip because I am TERRIFIED of losing our marriage. So I'm holding on as hard as I can and now I see that it's being totally counterproductive.
The kicker? Based on history, once I stop talking I really feel that that means things are over. Because he will assume that it's all fixed and will just leave it be. So if I talk, nothing will happen, and if I don't talk, nothing will happen. What a crappy spot to feel like I'm in.
Jen
Edited to add: Now the man who has been adamant against divorce is talking about not knowing if we should try or if it's worth it because we can't stop "arguing". Though arguing seems to involve me wanting to talk about something and his getting ticked off because he doesn't want to deal with it. When I push it, we argue. And now HE'S "threatening" divorce. (Though he actually hasn't said, I'm thinking about divorce.) It's more a whole attitude/demeanor thing. I have to wonder if he's serious (he's said in the past that there isn't anything serious enough to divorce over) or if it's yet another manipulation attempt on me.
Edited 11/10/2005 2:25 pm ET by imasillynut

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(((Hugs)))
I wish I had some advice for you, Jen. I swear reading that post I had to wonder if we're having some of the same problems. I could've written that word for word almost. It's the same way here.
I hope something happens to make it better for you.
Jessica
Just me saying what I honestly think, and you know how bad that can be.
I'm a little confused; I guess I'd always had the impression that your husband was "in favor" of divorce based on his statement that he expected you'd throw your hands up and be done with it. (my words, not yours)
Some observations that may or may not apply:
The act of waiting for someone else to be fed up enough to end it is would seem to be passively seeking divorce/the end of the relationship. Not that you want or need to hear this, but in the dating world, it's not uncommon for guys to stay in a relationship they don't like rather than ending it, doing things that upset their girlfriend so that ultimately she ends the relationship. That benefits them two ways -- since she ended it they aren't the bad guy, and they didn't have to go through the upset/drama/trauma of telling their girlfriend it's over.
Men are often content with "surface relationships". They'll accept a lesser level of commitment, involvement, connection. Women are the ones who typically want/need/demand relationships that are deep, rich and fulfilling. Maybe this would be a good time for a disclaimer. **In no way do I think that all men or all women think, feel, expect or are satisfied with the same things. We're all individuals and I'm well aware of that.**
Over and over, your husband sounds like a spoiled, lazy child. He wants what he wants, but he doesn't want to have to do anything to get it. He wants to make you happy (what one thing you wanted to work on most), but he doesn't want to do the actual work. As though he thinks lip services is enough. "It's the thought that counts, huh?" NOT. If I remember correctly, he was revered by his mother. It would seem he learned quite well that all he should have to do is be present to be adored. He seems to have a huge amount of entitlement.
He doesn't trust you because you don't trust him? How old is he, four? Come on, that's a juvenile, immature excuse ploy to try to throw the blame and the focus back your way to take the heat and the attention off himself. If you're sputtering about not being trusted when you've done nothing to warrant lack of trust, he doesn't have to face up to reality. When is he a man, an adult? When does he stand up and face what he is? When does he take responsibility? I'm wondering where your level of respect for him is....
He thinks things are better because you're not fighting, you're talking but talking about fluff (surface relationship). My take (which could be completely wrong) is that he doesn't really care that the problems haven't been resolved, that you aren't talking about anything deeper than the weather. He's just glad you're not fighting and that's good enough for him. He's perfectly satisfied with a relationship that *seems* good and happy. Put those blinders on, don't rock the boat, *seem* to be happy forever and that's good enough for him. He may not want a divorce, but it doesn't sound like he wants to have to do anything different either. Pretending everything's all right is preferable to that. My ex was like that (of course, he was a functioning alcoholic and verbally abusive too), as long as we pretended to be happy, he was satisfied and content. It was me that wanted different / more. He was perfectly happy with the status quo. In fact, seven years after the divorce, he hasn't changed one iota. Same everything, just different woman in his life (sorry for her, thankful for me) Your husband knows darned well things aren't better, he's lived with you long enough to know that until/unless things are approached and resolved things aren't *okay*, he's playing a game that's worked well for him in the past, playing dumb. It's a stall, it buys him avoidance time.
You have to *pretend* to connect to keep him from disconnecting too far. Relationships require two people working to maintain it. What I hear you saying is you keep putting gas in it until he runs low again, then you refill the tank. Where's the give and take? The partnership? The responsibility on his end? Where's the sweat equity? If you're really saying what you're implying, which is if you don't reach out and pull him back in he'll continue to wander out there until he doesn't come back at all, you're saying he's not very committed or invested in this. Whether his disconnect and distancing is something he's aware he's doing or something he doesn't recognize, if at some point he doesn't look up and say "Whoa! I've gone too far, I've got to get back there" That says some telling things either about his desire and commitment to you or about his ability to have deep desire and commitment to anything. Either way it's not good.
Your insane statement made me laugh, it really did. But then the rest of it really hit hard. Your thinking, your actions are exactly what mine was in my previous marriage. Just sure if you can find the right words, the right way to explain it he'll get it, it'll change how he is, how he acts, treats you, all of it, everything will fall into place and everything will be wonderful. Jen, I'm knocking on my monitor screen, can you hear me? There are no "right words". This isn't caused by him not understanding. He doesn't want to hear it, doesn't want to "play" that way, doesn't want to "get it". He wants to do and be what he is and he's doing that. Talk yourself blue in the face (Lord knows I did) but it won't make a bit of difference. It's not that he doesn't hear it or doesn't get it, he doesn't want to make the kinds of changes you want and need. Beating your head against that same brick wall will only give you a headache, it won't accomplish a thing. What I seem to hear you say is that you see the pattern, you know what's happening, so now you're looking for a new way to try and *make* him want to do what you want.
"Based on history, once I stop talking I really feel that that means things are over. Because he will assume that it's all fixed and will just leave it be. So if I talk, nothing will happen, and if I don't talk, nothing will happen. What a crappy spot to feel like I'm in. " Absolutely crappy. I know you're going to hate this statement because I've hated it when therapists have said it to me: "It really sucks when people won't do what we want them to do. It would be so much easier if they'd just do what we wanted them to." And it's true, dang it. We WANT them to do what they want, we just want that to be the same thing that we want. Unfortunately, it isn't always. You can't make him want what you want. You are only responsible for half this relationship and you can only do half the work. He's got to pick up the other half, he's got to do his share or you don't have a relationship, you have Jen, keeping all the balls in the air, trying to make it appear that there's a working relationship. You can keep juggling forever, really, but it won't make it different.
With all that said, I notice that you went out of your way not to specifically explain what it was you wanted to work on -- other than that we know it has nothing to do with cleaning (lol). You've carefully avoided being specific as to issues and problems before and that's certainly your choice and your right. That being said I have to say that when that's done it leaves us to guess what the problem is, try to answer a generic "mystery issue" and most likely we miss the mark by quite a bit. Again, your right to keep it to yourself, but it's also possible that knowing specifically what it is that was being dealt with would have someone recognizing something in your issue and/or responding in a way, from a standpoint that you hadn't seen before. It could very well make a difference. Even if it didn't solve anything, knowing specifically what the issue is could help us know what might be helpful, and what's not worth suggesting. Just wanted to throw that out there.
And yes, therapist!!! Jen, I wish I could wave a magic wand and make this all better for you, heck, I wish you could wave it for yourself. I know how frustrating this is. What you want is so easy, so simple, so normal why can't it just be that way. It would be so easy, it should be that easy, if only it were up to you and you alone. Like you've said before, it may be time for you to take a look at what you really do have and decide if you can live with him as he really is. But I sooo understand how you feel and where you are.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Jessica,
I appreciate the hugs. And I appreciate you saying that you could have written the post too. That did help.
Jen
2nd-Life,
Well, I had a feeling you'd have nothing good to write but I went ahead and wrote the post anyway. :) Wait, that came out wrong, LOL!
I agree with you that a lot of his actions are a passive way of trying to get me to end the marriage. Or at least they SOOOOO appear that way. I've actually had discussions with my dad about how DH seems to want to be able to walk away from all this as "the victim". His actually filing or anything else would prevent that. But just driving me nuts, then it's me who didn't love/trust/whatever enough and he can be the wronged party. So I've had that thought.
Oh and when he brought up the trust thing, I didn't sputter. I asked what I had done to warrant it, laughed my head off at his response, and went right back to the issue at hand. So I did get a smidge sidetracked, but then hopped right back on board. I'm getting better at that. (And I've noticed he's become more desparate in his attempts at shifting the topic.)
And how much can you respect someone you don't trust? I've told him (because he asked) that trust has to be earned and respect comes as trust builds. He wants me to enjoy and want to be around him and got upset when I said that required him to act in a way that I wouldn't find off-putting. He couldn't believe I was "making" him do something again. (Like he would force himself to be around a complete stranger who acted in a way he didn't like...)
<>
~~ITA with that. This is my take on it too. He disagrees and says it ain't so, but that's how I've viewed it for awhile now.
And yes, I hear and understand you on the commitment thing. I wonder if he CAN be committed to anything that isn't perfect without work.
I do feel like I'm the one doing anything. That I'm the one balancing the balls because he doesn't think he has to. At least that's the way it feels. I'm not going to do it anymore though. Realizing I'm insane has set me free in that respect. It's insane to think that I can get him to realize things, it's insane to think that I can keep the balls going and that he'll look up and join in one day just cause I'm managing. What I can and will do, is act in a manner I can be proud of, and figure out what I can and can't put up with, and then figure out if he fits into that equation too. I hope he will, but I'm not going to try and MAKE it happen anymore. I really feel this way too. I feel lighter all of the sudden. It takes quite a bit of burden away when I realize that I only have to be responsible for me.
And I know I've avoided saying what the one thing is and such. Honestly, I'm worried that it won't be understood, because it's one of those issues where my religious beliefs come into play quite a bit. And honestly, does it matter what the issue is if it still doesn't get worked on? And a bigger part is that he agrees and doesn't. Though I know how annoying it is to really want to know... ;)
<>
~~Amen to that. That is my biggest hang up right now. It's so NORMAL. It's so not out of line. It's so....basic. But that doesn't matter. I can only be the best me. I can't make DH do things, I can't police him on issues, I can't get him to see the light.
But hey, if he's honestly doing EVERYTHING needed to keep us together and so am I, he doesn't have a thing to worry about. (He asked about this today.) Since I know I am, if he says he is, then why is he so worried?
Jen
I hear a lot of positive in what you're saying, your thought process, your actions. I think you're miles ahead of where I was when I was battling the same issues. But dang it, when you know what you want isn't that hard (at least not for you!) it seems like such an easy and reasonable thing to expect! Like we've both said, it's just a "normal" relationship we're looking for, how easy is that?!?!?!? It's so easy to get stuck in that.
Good for you for not getting distracted by his attempts to move the focus away from him. The fact that he seems more frantic in his attempts says you're getting better at staying on target and forcing him to have to face the issue.
He thinks things are better because you're not fighting, you're talking but talking about fluff (surface relationship). My take (which could be completely wrong) is that he doesn't really care that the problems haven't been resolved, that you aren't talking about anything deeper than the weather. He's just glad you're not fighting and that's good enough for him. He's perfectly satisfied with a relationship that *seems* good and happy. Put those blinders on, don't rock the boat, *seem* to be happy forever and that's good enough for him. He may not want a divorce, but it doesn't sound like he wants to have to do anything different either. Pretending everything's all right is preferable to that.
~~ITA with that. This is my take on it too. He disagrees and says it ain't so, but that's how I've viewed it for awhile now.
He might say it's not so, but actions speak louder than words. I'll tell you, I was hung up on that one for a long time in my previous marriage. I was married to the guy, I wanted to believe him, but his actions didn't match up to what he said. Trying to believe what he was telling me while what he was doing was saying something quite different. Lip service is easy, but if what's said isn't backed up by actions that indicate the same thing, it isn't too genuine.
I can understand you keeping your religious issue to yourself, though I'd really hope that the members are respectful and accepting enough to accept your beliefs whether they agree or not. I can see concern that the post would be hijacked and would become a debate about your belief alone; if that happened, I would certainly move it to another post - and if it continued, suggest a debate is more appropriate for the debate board. The problem with giving responses to a problem where the specifics are unknown is that the answers can only be generic and very, very often don't really touch the actual issue at hand. How many times have you answered a question, when, after hearing specifics said, "why didn't you say so?" and have your response based on the actual facts be quite different.
Jen, the picture I keep getting of your husband is of someone who doesn't want to be a grown up, doesn't want to have to do grown up work, would rather float, and let someone else do the grown up work, and from what you've said, I think that's consistent with his upbringing.
I don't really have anything to say except that I do understand where you are and I know how hard and frustrating it is. I think you're moving in the right direction, and making those realizations long before I did.
~ cl-2nd_life"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."
~ Author unknown

my signature exchange partner:"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
Alright, we'll try it.
My belief is that if we grow closer to God that the whole self-centered crap will fade away. So the one thing I want to work on is improving our spirituality. If we genuinely work on being more in tune to the promptings and will of God, we will be more loving and accepting of others and less likely to view everything as "what am I getting/not getting" or "I'm the one doing all the giving, etc". (I really hope I don't sound like a Christian crackpot ;))
So, we have to read scriptures, pray, and apply what we read and the promptings we have.
Jen
Edited to say: The only reason I've made it to this point is I haven't had to get here alone. My dad has been tallking and working with me to get here for the last several years. In some ways I lucked out that he had had 35 years to reach this point and perfect it, and so I didn't have to feel it out on my own.
Edited 11/13/2005 2:16 pm ET by imasillynut
Jen,
If it's any consolation, I don't think you sound like a Christian crackpot!
In spite of my sporadic, emotionally distorted posts I have been at a point where you feel you are and hope to get back to that point.
I think it is important to have spirituality in your life and I have known families very similar to what you want so it's not so farfetched.
Didn't you say you and your DH went to college together at a Christian college? If so then I would think he may have come out with somewhat of the same beliefs, correct?
Not necessarily from what I have experienced, but from what I have seen through other people is that yes it does very much help because on a daily basis you think about and contemplate your own actions and the actions God would want you to take. It can be very practical, concrete and un-fluffy!
I will say that both parties have to be willing to do it though and I don't know if that's the case or not, maybe starting off small will be a good place to begin or trying it just to become familiar. Sometimes unfamiliar things are not so welcomed at first and I don't know how foreign this might be to your DH.
I admire what you are trying to do and honestly I hope to someday try to do the same thing in my life with my family. I do hope that you and your DH come to some kind of an agreement. I don't have much advice for you, but regardless I do hope it's something you find a way to instill in your life.
Quirky,
Yes, we did meet at a Christian college and no, none of this is a foreign way of thinking for us. Actually, when we used to do this (individually and jointly), things were much smoother and happier. This started going to the wayside around the same time the problems started. And when I try to shift my focus back to this, I am MUCH happier irregardless of how anything else goes. I know I need to be more consistant in it though.
Jen
Honestly, these are things that are basic to our beliefs. He was going a bit "kooky" with that but now is saying he's wanting to be a "good Christian". He asked me what I wanted to work on, I told him and he wasn't real happy about it because he thought it was too broad. BUT he had asked me what I wanted to do and agreed to work on it. Not that it's happening really.
<>
~~These are all basic things to our beliefs. But he has become lazy and doesn't see where he has to read, pray, etc in order to feel the Holy Spirit. I guess he thinks it will be there no matter what he does. I'm more of the opinion that you have to live in such a way that it can be there. Actually, our religion is of the opinion that you have to live in order for it to be with you constantly. But he's become lazy about everything. Religion, job, marriage, etc.
We had a counselor once who said he thought DH was one of those charmed people who didn't stress or worry too much about what to do etc because he figured it would just happen. And a lot has fallen into DH's lap without much effort on his part. Jobs, etc.
Thanks for responding and letting me know that you get what I mean though. There are so many times where people, especially those my age, think I am a nut job for putting as much emphasis on religion as I do. So I'm usually fairly hesitant to bring up more than just generalities with people unless I know them.
Jen
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