We have a difficult problem-please help

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Registered: 08-08-2003
We have a difficult problem-please help
26
Mon, 02-07-2005 - 8:31am

"You can't be physically intimate with someone when you keep your distance emotionally"

Someone said this on another board - and it's right to the point for me + my situation, with which I am desperate by now. I posted this (in a slightly different form) on "communication problems", but I've been lurking on this here board and found so very helpful answers that I'm posting it here also (I'm in Germany that's why my posts are coming in at unusual times - I do sleep well ;-).

My H + I (in our mid-40's) are married for nearly 2 years now. I always knew him to be emotionally not very competent and insensitive (i.e. mostly unthinking) in his talk (comes from his family-background), but I felt we could both work on it when I saw some small success in our courting stage. He had the same problems in his 1st marriage; this failed because he could/would never talk about his emotions or understand rel.ship-behaviour that is vastly different from his own. I am a highly communicative and sentitive person (one reason why my H married me) and I thought I could make him "see the light", i.e., your sentence above.

What DH wants most is harmony - but not the discussed/worked-out kind; he just wants things to run smoothly without any talks. He evades/suppresses upcoming problems; as long as he is content (and he mostly is), there ARE no problems to his mind. He can see + sometimes understand his patients/friends emotional issues, and he's interested in them - but to me it feels like he's looking on, on the outside, and not very interested to get himself in on the really important issues of life. He admits to never in his life having felt REAL emotional pain at all (Well - if you're not digging deep, you never get to the muck, do you?...). He doesn't mind this. He is without opinion to the fact that pain/ unhappiness/ sorrow are the major contributors to the emotional growth of a a person and make us more able to understand + sympathise with others. He does know and exercise pity and sympathy with illness, world catastrophes, financial hardships, etc. and is always ready (and able) to help with these.

We hardly ever talk about us. If we do, I have to initiate and he either immediately takes the role of the "victim", saying I'm right, but it's too hard for him to act different + understand, or he says I'm getting on his nerves and goes off to do s.th. else (lately more + more often I get the latter response).

Just 2 examples: First, he often makes really distateful jokes, which I don't find funny at all (he hasn't got a great sense of humour in general). We have a cat, and he likes it a lot, too: Recently, I thought aloud about putting up a sign on our street, where cars somethimes go by really fast, "Please be mindful, cats running around in the open" and my H goes "PANG! Flat cat!" and thinks it's funny. I asked would he find it funny if it happened to our cat? He just answers "Well, I thought the 2 dogs run over in "A fish called Wanda" real funny." I couldn't see what that had to do with the question at hand. I was really upset and hurt by his joke, but he would not my feelings at all.

Second, we used to have an OK sex-life, quite fulfilling for me also. Now, it's come so far that I shirk away from having sex with him because I feel mentally estranged. He doesn't want sex very often, but if he does, he doesn't understand why I won't. He is no romantic, either, he just comes up wordlessly and starts fumbling the "right parts" and can't see he's putting me off more than turning me on with this. At the start of our relationship, I initiated sex all the time, because he was too shy - the sex-life with his 1st wife (and only woman - in a relationship - up to then) was a silent catastrophe (they never had a baby because SHE didn't want one - and he just gave in after 2 short talks. In 18 years of marriage. He wanted a child, but completely unreflected - "one has kids, doesn't one?")

I talk(ed) to him A LOT about these issues. Normally in a fitting setting, enough time at hand, clear mood, using "I"-sentences etc.- but lately, I've become so impatient with his non-response that I start to get more aggressive than sad, rather lash out, get loud or avoid/ draw back out of these situations myself, because I'm becoming resigned + exhausted from all the effort I put into making him understand and only getting back his his "thick-as-a-brick"-attitude. I myself think he is just too lazy to learn (he often says himself he needs + wants a kick in the butt, and tends to be lazy). He will start to read a book I gave him on the subject, but he never discusses, doesn't behave differently and soon stops reading. He will not go to partner-counselling, because he himself (as he states) has no problem with his wordlessness/ the situation in general. For him, things are just fine if they function on the outside.

I am at the end of my wits. He DOES realise that his 2nd marriage is going the way his 1st did; he definitely DOESN'T want a dumb waitress at his side for a wife, either (I have said to him even before our marriage that this is what he should look for instead of me, if he doesn't want to change his attitude). He wanted ME, he knew exactly what he was getting, and he was adamant we would make it work. He is such a good, tender, unselfish, generous + kind man in EVERY other respect - but I need him to be there for me emotionally. I can feel myself dry up + shrivel, move away further and further away from him, I tell him - and he just stands there helplessly.

I want to save our marriage - but how can I when, whatever I tell him, my H wants to think there's nothing wrong? I have been so frustrated/ sad, I started compensation-eating, I have no desire to go out any more. I have no friends her - I relocated far away from my home-county to marry, and so far, I haven't found a way to fit in here...
Sorry this is so long.
I'm REALLY thankful for any suggestion,
M.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2004
Mon, 02-07-2005 - 11:08am
Hi M. I suspect that you've just "voiced" what women feel so often and can never quite verbalize. It's especially frustrating when he's so good in the majority of the other ways that count. The one place he's lacking, however, is affecting everything else. It's affecting your sex life, your self-confidence, it's breeding resentment and it's making you a rather lonely woman. As I'm sure you know, and every other woman on this planet (myself included), ultimatums backfire. It's not as though you can say, "OK, Cowboy...this is how it's gonna be." That "thick as a brick" mentality you referred to serves as a protective mechanism for him in so many ways. There's not a whole lot you can do to change him. Scratch that....there's nothing you can do to change him. Sometimes, that's just their genetic make up....or so I've heard. What you can do, however, is make some changes to you, FOR you. I know all too well that feeling of being in an unfamiliar place, trying to lay roots, build a home, make friends and generally function while trying to keep your sanity in the process. I've been there. It just about kicked my butt. It was during some of those rather lonely times that I realized I could really take advantage of my situation. My Mr. Wonderful at the time (and yes, that's meant sarcastically...he's a major pain who served no purpose for me but to change my last name and serve as a reminder that some folks just have no business being married), was gone the vast majority of the time. Work is one thing, but when he's so wrapped up in his other activities, namely deer hunting and drinking, he tends to lose sight of priorities. Well, I imagine he took a good look at me at some point because by the time I was finished with my little renovation, I'd dropped a few pounds, had begun to work out (as much as I disliked it....one of those times that "the ends justified the means" comes into play), had let my hair grow longer and had basically learned to like me again. Oh, he noticed then. For about two seconds....but that wasn't the goal. The goal was doing something for ME that no one else could. That was hard because of the resentment that I had for him for not prioritizing his life better was overwhelming at times. No matter how much I tried and no matter what I did and no matter how often I participated in his little hunting adventures (trust me....I've yet to discover the fascination with a tree stand), it was simply never enough. I was a burden to him. I interefered with his drinking and gave him ultimatums that I knew he'd never meet. I think though, he knew that a bellyful was a bellyful and that I'd had my limit. By then, it mattered none because that resentment had just overwhelmed me to the point that I, like you, cringed when he touched me, was disgusted by anything he had to say because basically, I believed he spoke only to be heard and to remind himself that he was still human (and only when he was sober). The point of my story is that sometimes, people just don't change. It's like you already know....he likes him, or at least, he likes him enough to not think change is necessary. Perhaps it's time for a little selfishness on your part.....you do have your sanity to think of. Start induglging yourself and allowing yourself the freedom to completely dismiss his shortcomings sometimes. I'm not suggesting you do any kind of betrayal, but since you're in a new place, do some sightseeing. There are book clubs and museums and ESPECIALLY.....EVERYWHERE ON THE PLANET....there are hairdressers and chocolate stores! Cure all for everything, if you ask me. I don't know what your answer is other than to not spend 100% of your energy trying to change him. Change comes from within and the only one you're "within" is you. Don't make it your responsibility to fix him....you can't. It'll make you old before your time and leave you frustrated. Perhaps allowing a little time to pass will offer an opportunity to approach him with a compromise or suggestions. I know what you're thinking: you shouldn't HAVE to. I agree. You shouldn't. Sometimes, though, men being the hokey creatures they are, need a little guidance, a good kick in the butt (just my opinion :) and a little incentive, as well. Seriously....take some time for you. Make you a priority.
Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 02-07-2005 - 1:51pm

Do you have access to books from the US? I ask because I read a book recently that I think addresses your situation directly. It's called something like "How Can I Get Through To You?" by Terrance Real. It's written by a male therapist/researcher who addresses the gulf between how men and women are socialized (in general, of course, but your H sounds like he fits the general pattern) and how this affects intimate r'ships. I think it would be helpful for you.

However, as the book concludes, unless your H realizes that his marriage is in crisis and chooses to DO something about it (and the book has a number of suggestions), nothing's going to change. I hope you are able to communicate to him that if nothing changes, he will find himself alone again, at least emotionally (because you will have checked out of your marriage).

Sheri

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Mon, 02-07-2005 - 2:21pm

Dear Cat,

yes, yes and yes. Thank you for your post. SUCH a relief to find understanding + get a comment. If I had not come to know 1 (and only) man in my life who knew how to, I would've said: "Only a woman will/can do". But they do exist, these men - and I was lucky enough to know one of them. Not lucky enough to stay in his life...

If I'm honest with myself, I KNOW I need to make changes on/for myself, and not focus so much on this 1 problem. Difficulty is: It/We started off so well, and I was so darned happy to settle in a very safe haven, at last, with 42... I've had lots of relationship-chaos in my younger years and I was so glad to have found a good man for the rest of my life. I know this doesn't help, but I need to say it: If I think about ending this (killing my parents by this as well) and starting all over - no, I can't even THINK about it! My H has been so good to me in so many ways, he has not neglected me for his work, and he takes me with him when he goes sailing (which I like - and I understand about not being so happy with a hunting guy ;-). And he likes me to interfere with his drinking, as he knows that is a contribution to keeping it in check. Still, as you put it so well: Apart from the diversities of many holidays, it makes me a rather lonely woman. I can hear a lot of women out there, going "GOD, you should be happy, I got it so much worse!!" - and I know some of it is true, but how long, how far can I go against myself?
And when do I know for sure that my H will never change?

I have tried the fitness studio, learning a new language etc. I appreciate so much your statements on how I should make me my first priority (and I thank you thank you for your kindness in every word) - but it's so hard for me. I get depressed, seeing where I made myself go and where I'm headed - seemingly nowhere. Somehow, I seem to have given up on life even before I married (maybe that's why I married), 'cause it was so hard and such a fight for such a long time. Now, I'm safe and secure, I somehow can't see my priorities any more: Before I married I wanted both, finding my soulmate as well as being able to stop worrying where my next meal would come from.
I did find my soulmate - and let him go again to marry a superb provider (the full story was much more complicated, of course ;-). I got to experience both. And now I'm completely at a loss as to what I really need and want.
I guess a female shoulder to cry on would be nice now.

Does this babble make any sense?? And are you still married to Mr. ....??

Love,
M.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-20-2004
Mon, 02-07-2005 - 4:47pm
It absolutely makes sense! And for what it's worth....I've been married twice, each time the "marriage" was over within a year and I was divorced immediately after the split in the first one (well, within a year or so) and the second one, we were together for about a year, split and were divorced a little later. So, basically, I've been "married" two years out of my entire adult life (I'm going on 37). I know that you feel you had to choose between one or the other in terms of passion vs. survival. And add to the fact that you feel a very strong obligation to not hurt your parents, it must feel as though there's a ton of responsibility on you. I think there's a possibility that I may could have made a decision similar to yours at a couple different points in my life. The difference was I have a mom who was quite young when she had me and knew all too well the sacrifices that women make (especially in the 60s), and she thought it was so important that I (nor my younger sister) not "paint myself in a corner". And, too, and I'm not suggesting this by any stretch of the imagination, but please understand NOTHING ever has to be final. If you are truly unhappy to the point that it's suffocating you and deeply affecting your quality of life, then it may be that this marriage isn't for you. Please understand (and I've said this before), despite my less than perfect track record, I absolutely believe in marriage and I hope, with all that I am, that I can find that rare one that provides not only stability but that passion too. Understanding that so much of it fades through the years, I truly want to experience that. I want to know what it's like to have some safe place to fall back on no matter how bad the day was or how badly I fouled something up....which, by the way, I do quite well! I want to know what that unconditional love feels like that we hear so much about. On the other hand, I'm not willing to sacrifice one precious and hard-won victory (my independence, my sanity, my safety) for another. Deep down, though? I think we always make a sacrifice. We must always make some kind of choice. I think that if this were a matter of something silly, such as forgetting to roll the windows up in the car or forgetting to set the alarm clock or leaving the lid up in the bathroom.....it'd be a no-brainer. But the fact that this is so important to you and there are so many dynamics involved (again, your family, the fact that he is so good in other very important ways, your inner battle with yourself about how you knew this was how he was), it just feels like you're totin' the bad end of a constipated hen. Your options aren't that bleak, though. It is more than just black or white....there are many shades of gray here. And many compromises...granted, most of them yours....but it's your sanity we're talking about. Maybe getting it all out under the anonominity this board provides will help. Maybe sweet-talking him into installing a new jacuzzi will help. Maybe your own version of your soul searching is what will do it. It's clear you are very torn by this. If you had posted that he was a lying, no good, cheating, worthless, won't go to work, useless jackass? I'd be doing the "divorce dance" for you right about now. I get the feeling that you know that's not the answer....or at the very least, it's not an option you're considering at this point. Again, I don't have an answer for you anymore than I did this morning....but I do get it and it does make sense and you've plenty of shoulders to cry on around here. Keep on keepin' on...sometimes that's all you can do.
D.
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 02-07-2005 - 6:26pm

All unions sink to the lowest common denominator.

While he probably thought if you were different than his first wife, his results would be different in marriage...the fact he is a common denominator in both his marriages and dynamics pervade because values don't change.

He's the way he is - at work, at home, at school, etc. etc. etc. There is no way to change one facet of someone's life in terms of depth, breadth, width, or span and then have them remain the narrow, uncommunicative, superficial, and personally unaware person they are in every other venue.

You want something you can't get - because you were trying to rescue him from himself. Aisle/altar/hymn is NOT "I'll alter him".

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 02-07-2005 - 10:19pm

Womaninthewoods, I want to make sure I understand your situation correctly, so please let me know if I'm correct and correct me where I've misunderstood.




It sounds like you're saying that you knew he wasn't able to communicate effectively when you married him, you knew this was a major problem in his first marriage (which indicates pretty strongly this is how he is, especially when you encountered the same problems with him) but you married him despite the fact that you weren't happy with him the way he was; you saw some improvement and expected it to change completely. Now that you're married you see that improvement isn't forthcoming and you recognize that he's chosen - prefers to live his life skimming the surface, going through the motions, rather than to really live and feel. However, he prefers a woman who's not so superficial as himself. If that's the case, then that's what gets him into trouble. He wants a woman with substance but offers her none of the substance she requires in order to have a fulfilling relationship.




If that's the case, I don't know what to tell you. He's living life as he chooses, as he wants to live it, being the cardboard personality that he is. You want more -- who wouldn't? You married him expecting changes that aren't coming, and now realize that they're not. He won't change unless he isn't happy with himself as he is, and from what you've said, that's not the case. He might go through the motions of trying to change if he thought he would lose you if he didn't, but changes under those circumstances aren't likely to be lasting changes. I've read the book Northwestwanderer referred to and it is good. However, as she said, if he's not interested in change, it won't be of any help to you. You said he recognizes this marriage is going the way of the first and he doesn't want that to happen. So what's he willing to do about it? Have you asked him? Is he willing to go to couples counseling? Will he read the book Northwestwanderer suggested? Are the two of you willing to read it together?




Let me know where I've got it right and where I've misunderstood and I'll be happy to rethink my thoughts.

~ cl-2nd_life


"You can't control the length of your life,
but you can control the width and depth."

~ Author unknown








"Ignoring the facts
does not change the facts"
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Tue, 02-08-2005 - 3:58am

Dear cl,

you understood me well. You know, sometimes I get a lot of feedback through my own reactions to the answers I get: When you wrote about my H's "cardboard-personality", I noticed it made me hurt inside, because he is such a wonderful man in so many respects, and I feel it's such a loss not only for himself but for all who know him, that he just can't/won't be "deeper".
I think what it boils down to is that I'm still not sure whether he CAN'T or WON'T change. I do know that he loves me, wants to make me happy, and I know he sometimes is trying to go into some depths - but somehow it just not seems worthwhile for him.
I can understand him: If I try something and it just doesn't do anything for me then I stop trying... but if it does loads of good for others, I will persist in finding it's good for me.
But with my H it's sometimes like he's afraid to lose something (face, standing, finances)if he really opens up - and he is so very unused/incompetent in conversation, that he calls himself a "dork" sometimes... He tells a story very slowly, gets sidetracked, misses the pointe, laughs at his own jokes. He likes to play "blowfish" when he really has NO need to, and this pushes potential new friends away; he gets no chance to make himself really known, because (don't we all know that!) you meet someone, he makes a really distasteful joke/ areally weird comment, and we just drop him. It happened so often, on holidays, with well-meaning relatives, when I feel so ashamed... Sometimes this comes out of fear of new encounters, fear of saying the wrong thing, and BOOM! - you land your foot right in! I know this can happen, I talk to him about it - and then it happens right again. For me, as a fierce talker and a thorough lover of language and talk, this is painful.
Some of his friends often treat him as a lesser - not meant unkindly, but still, I notice that (he doesn't...)

So, he feels and knows his incompetence, but it's not bad enough for him to want to change it.
You said, if he might fear he'd lose me: "He might go through the motions of trying to change if he thought he would lose you if he didn't, but changes under those circumstances aren't likely to be lasting changes." That's exactly how I see it.
And I don't think he's going to DO anything. It's me who will have to decide whether I want to give up hope or not. If I will leave him, he'll have a baddish week - and then go on exactly as before. Not missing too much. Looking for fake-love in lower places, as he's done in his former marriage. Concerning rel.ships, he is satisfied with so little, I find it hard to believe. And it pains me so, because I have such a lot to give emotionally, but he has no socket for this kind of plug...

But I don't feel like giving up yet - I'm not the kind. And I still love him too much.
Thanks so much for your thoughts,
M.

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-08-2003
Tue, 02-08-2005 - 4:45am

Dear D,

you do read me. You know, it's much the same with me: Before my marriage, I've had an 8-year-long (4 years living together) relationship, and, apart from that, only rel.ships that lasted 1-2 years - and lots of "things" in between.

And I know nothing has to be final - but as I get older, I find the fight that is life gets ever harder and my energies ever less. I have also a couple of minor illnesses, chronic aches + pains which don't help!... I had cancer when I was 24, a few cancer -scares in the years after - maybe that contributed to my decision passion vs. a safe life. I always survived - but not too well, D.
Also, my Mum especially wanted to see me "cared for" for a long time now. I myself didn't have so many fears (I had affairs, rel.ships, i was still wanted), but I could feel my parents anguish about my single state (maybe also to do with my illness in youth). Being without much money, I could never "do" anything for my parents (which have done so much for me and which have love dme so well) - and I will NEVER forget the day we told them we were going to marry. My Dad cried. I had seen my dad cry once befor in his life. They both dote on my H, they love him so much and vice versa (My H lost his father early, his mother 2 years ago). We sent them on a cruise last year (which was their -unvoiced- dream and my dream-gift for them) and we plan to go on holidays together with them this year.

I KNOW this is MY life. I know also how changed + happy they are and our rel.ship is, since I married. They are both OK, but do have some illnesses to contest. No need to say I'm an only child now, is there ;-) Don't you think this desire for a "safe place" to come back to after each day in the world (even if we fouled up) may just be a desire to have what we had with our parents when we were kids? Apropos unconditional love...

You know, by now, I don't think there is a possibility to have passion & stability. Not that I wouldn't love to learn better... I believe in marriage the same as I believe in (exclusive) partnerships. I know there is a difference, but it never counted much for me, apart from the higher pressure to make things work when you tied the knot. I never dreamt of "white dress" etc., and after I passed 30, I ruled out marriage for me as a far too ridiculous thing to do at such an advanced age :-) It just happened. And when it did(after very much thought, I can tell you!), it felt absolutely right.

And HOW do you know about my desire for a jacuzzi????? We have a large garden, I wanted one for all my life (water is my real element), and he promised already - but somehow we're always getting sidetracked. I talked to him about it last night. We'll see...

You are so right, D: This is gray country, this is compromise village, this is options road (apart from the divorce-one, as you so well have read out of my words). I will battle on - and try to have some more fun in life in between; it's been much too short on laughter lately. I must find myself some kindred spirits here - not least to take pressure off my H. I've lived so long in B&W-land (passion and drama are always so blindingly one-purposed), I still need some time to get adjusted to the shades in between.
You helped. You made me see I need to be more positive, less "moronic", more active.

All the best for you,
M.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 02-08-2005 - 6:51am

Since you agree with 2nd life's assessment of your position, here's my take on it: You may be able to affect some slight additional adjustment to your husband's basic personality through reading, coaxing, and if he'll go, couple's counseling. But your expectations for success should be limited.

On the other hand, where you have complete control is over your own reaction to him and your situation. This is not a suggestion that you become just like him. Rather, that you work toward accepting him as he is and internalizing the fact that how he "is" is not a relection on you or your relationship.

Example: I think it is quite telling that you chose as an illlustration of the behavior that concerns you, the fact that he made a bad joke about the cat. However, I'll have to say that your reaction to the "joke" was as inappropriate as his not guessing that it would upset you. You must have known that he didn't mean he would laugh if your cat was run over, yet you chose to challenge his statement with that suggestion.

What this tells me (as much as that's even possible given this tiny glimpse into your life) is that your disappointment in not being able to make him over these past couple of years has caused some major resentment. If your marriage is going to continue, THAT is the first thing that has to change. Resentment, even when it's legitimate, is always negative and detrimental. It becomes the obstacle to compromise - which is the best anyone can hope for in a relationship.

I'm not saying that it is fair or right that you should live with a person who seems to be deaf and blind to your needs. But likely what you've got here is a person who is so adverse to conflict that he would rather ignore the elephant in the room. That doesn't mean he doesn't love you, that he won't be faithful, that he's not happy. And it absolutely doesn't mean that he doesn't care. But since you can't change him, perhaps part of what your focus needs to be is the love, faithfulness and caring that is there below the surface.

Good luck to you.

Lee M.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-25-2003
Tue, 02-08-2005 - 1:53pm
Has he been tested for ADD?

Peace,


Di


***A womans love is a man's privilege, not a right.....author unknown***

Peace,

Di

***If you cannot define yourself, your circumstances will.***

 

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