H wants to try 6 more weeks, do I?
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| Wed, 08-01-2007 - 1:53pm |
Last night my H and I talked about whether it was time to end the M. He really wants us to try for 6 more weeks and give it all we've got, so that we can say we tried everything. He said it hasn't really worked because I haven't been trying and that he was finally ready to make some changes.
That I haven't been trying is partly true, when we first started discussing whether we could still make the M work back in January I made it clear then that I didn't have anymore energy to work on the M. That I was through putting my whole self into it while he didn't hold up his part. When he asked me to stick around and work it out then I could only promise to wait, and give him a chance to make some changes to see if they made me want to try again. He made a few changes, things got a little better, good enough to sustain a healthy relationship I suppose, but not enough to resuscitate a dying one, and recently he slid back into some old patterns, destroying any goodwill I'd started to feel towards him.
I don't know what to do, I've finally decided that this M is really over, but I haven't had enough time to work up the courage to actually leave yet. I don't think another 6 weeks is going to save us. I'm not sure I can "give it all I've got", if I could have done so already I would have. I don't know if this would be easier on him if I let go now or give him some more time, I feel like I've made the last ditch attempt already, he doesn't.
I've thought of telling him I would do it if he...
1.Understands that my heart isn't in it, that I won't be able to pretend that I love him like I did and that all is well.
2. That he can tell me what he needs me to do so that he feels I am trying.
3. That he can give me something measurable that he will do so that I can actually see if there has been any true changes.
The hard part is that anyone can probably be on their best behaviour for 6 weeks. He's trying to buy time. If he does good he'll ask for more. I might be okay with 6 more weeks but I don't think I want to drag it out any longer than that. So with that in mind I guess there is a #4
4. He understands that no matter how good things might seem to go for the 6 weeks that if I don't feel like I can commit back into the relationship 100% again after they are over, then its over.
I don't know if this is the way to go about it or not. Its the best I can think of though and I promised to give him an answer tonight. I mainly needed to get this sorted out in my head but if anyone has any ideas or suggestion I'm open to hearing.

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Caring about him makes it hard!.... but you know, he's kind of acting like a jerk about it now.... and I think you should be thankful that there aren't children in the mix.
Karen ~ wildlucky4me ~
lol - thanks for the support and humor! I know this will be hard and I will be sad but I'm determined to be strong and not fall apart and being able to laugh really helps. I'm going to try and get a list together of what I need to take care of. Maybe I'll post it on the board.
Thanks again!
Blue~
Thanks for sharing with me, too. I wouldn't wish all these difficulties on anyone either, but you are right that it is comforting to know that we are not alone in our struggles and that we will be all right.
My H never wants to talk about anything that has happened in the past, says I'm always holding things over his head. The problem is that nothing ever gets resolved. Then, when he does something other disrespectful/shi--y thing, and I tell him that what he's done brings up all the old hurts, he explodes and says that I always bring in the past. But if things have been resolved, then they wouldn't keep coming up.
You couldn't be more right about the victim role they play. When I first told him I wanted a divorce, he was remorseful, ashamed, admitted that he had behaved so badly and wouldn't blame me if I filed right away. (looking back, I, too, should have taken that and run far, far away!) Well, lo and behold, after he started seeing this OW, all of a sudden he was the "victim" and I was the BIG C who had caused all the problems. Someone was whispering in his ear that he was a great guy who didn't deserve this crap. After he had his heart attack, before we decided to reconcile, this OW left a message on his cell phone that said, among other things, "I hope Erika is treating you better, making things easier for you." Poor, Poor him. (It really makes my blood boil when I think about this - I can still hear her voice saying my name - YUCK! And our daughter's name - double YUCK!) (Actually, I remember one day I went to the coffee shop for about 45 minutes while he was having his time with our daughter and when I got home he asked me if I was seeing someone. I almost burst out laughing. I just rolled my eyes and said no. Later I found out that this was right after he had begun the relationship with the OW. Soooo coincidental. He is very good at projecting his behavior onto me.) He behaved badly but because, for the most part, I never said anything to anyone except my very best friend, all of these "friends" we have think I'm the B--ch that was destroying our marriage. I can see this in the way some people act around me now. Some are just as friendly as ever, but others pretty much ignore me, don't hug me anymore, etc. They are all his friends from before me, actually good friends with his exgf. So, now that I think about it, I can't lose what I never really had. LOL
I've been thinking that now that we have reconciled that he seems much more at ease being disrespectful to me. Like, well, he got me back and now maybe he'll push my buttons to see just how far he can go, and then if I can't take it, well, then it's my problem. He blows up easier at any suggestion I might make that he is not acting like someone who would do anything to make our marriage work. In fact, the things he has said he would do, he's made no effort to do. He just forgets, he says. He's so busy with so many other things (watching TV, drinking beer, going online, buying things for his hobbies - WHEW, it's exhausting just thinking about it! LOL)
I know I'm going to go. Our marriage really has been over for years. As you know, it's just so hard to let go, even though it's the right thing. I'm just deciding if I want to wait until this semester of school is over - I'm a full-time student and taking 16 units this semester. But another 4+ months seems like an eternity right now. Although, it always goes super fast. Before I know it, Halloween then Thanksgiving will have come and gone, and then Christmas, then the new year. I guess I'll just have to gauge it. I can feel myself very quickly withdrawing from him and the situation. Sometimes I can hardly stand to listen to him chew! LOL
And, you know, you're so right about the fact that he moved on so quickly once, he will do it again when this is all over, and he will be her problem. He is extremely predictable in nature and I believe that once I finally tell him it really is over, I would bet a million dollars that he will call up this OW pretty darn quick to start up with her again (even though she was just a supportive friend(thick scarcasm intended!). She would be stupid to do this as she would be the rebound choice (I know that feeling from him, too, unfortunately!), as he hates to be alone and would, obviously, just jump right in to the next relationship. All I want to do at this point is have my own life, not jump right into another relationship. That's why I was adamant that I wouldn't start up anything with anyone else until all is final. Then I will be able to work on myself and see things so much more clearly.
Thank you for reading and responding. It really does help to have support and understanding. The more I post and read at these boards, the better I feel.
I wish you so much luck in your decision. It is so difficult even being the one who is initiating the end of the relationship.
Peace and hugs to you.
Blue,
Have you seen a marriage counselor together or separately? If not, I highly recommend you do. Marriage is hard enough to navigate when its smooth sailing, but it's definetly not a "do it yourself" project when it comes to stormy weather.
First of all, you'll gain objective insight into your marriage with a counselor. Second, if you or he doesn't want to go to counseling, you'll know there isn't any commitment to work on the marriage (or to be willing to take responsibililty for your part of the issues.)
I say give your best shot but do it with the help of a counselor.
Best wishes,
CL-Wisdomtooth2020
wisdomtooth -
Thank you for your thoughts. I have been going to therapy by myself since about March. I've thought about marriage counseling but haven't ever brought it up to him. The reason? I haven't wanted to work on my marriage. You are exactly right, I'm not committed to it anymore. I told him back in January that the best I could do was give him some more time to show me something that might make me want to work on it. Nothing really changed. He made a better effort to communicate but no actions. He thinks things have changed, I believe because he sees his awareness of the problems as a change (which it is, but not enough of one for me, who has been trying to bring them to his attention for years) I have not been able to get him to understand that I need action not words. I'm sure a marriage counsler would help here, but once again, a part of me just thought "If he wants to fix this he needs to bring it up'. I'd have gone, but he hasn't.
Bottom line, I want this marriage to end. I don't want the pain for him or me, and I don't want to have to give up all I'll need to to make it happen, but I know its going to come to that eventually. My therapist keeps telling me that this is just a slow death, but I've needed the time to work up the courage to leave as this is a very co-dependent relationship and I've had to cut the ties that bind one at a time and each one has felt earthshattering to me.
Right now the only reason that this relationship is alive is because he is fighting so hard to keep it that way. You can keep a relationship limping along for quite sometime with only one person working at it, I know because up until this year I'd kept ours alive just that way, from the very beginning. Its not a healthy relationship though and I wish he would see that, but I don't think he can, and so its eventually going to come to a brutal end, and knowing that just makes it that much harder to face.
Right now I'm trying to get things together to end it at the end of the month. I am worried I'll chicken out, it I do, I probably will suggest joint marriage counseling, as a means to help facilitate a break-up, if nothing else.
Its funny, but I just realized that I was looking for him to do something that would give me some hope that the relationship was salvageable. He hasn't done that, but he has managed to give me some doubt that there isn't hope, if that makes any sense? This doesn't help as I have lots of doubts, but no hopes to pull me forward in either direction. Only knowledge of what the past has brought me so far.
Blue - it's me again, I just read all these posts and Ifor the first time in my life realized there are other women who are dealing or have dealt with many of the same problems I have. Men who are never at fault, want to forget th past and never resolve any issue. My stbx asked me for a list of issues, then wouldn't read it and then wanted to burn it. ????? Yeah, that resolves a whole lot!
I just wanted to add that part of the difficulty in leaving is that your marriage is so much a part of your identity, aside from the feelings you have for your spouse. I've been married for 30, almost 31 years, we were together 7 years before that. I had to figure out who I was by myself before I could leave. I don't have family close, tho they were very supportive from a distance. I do have a circle of good friends who high fived me this weekend when I told them I was serving him.
You seem to be coming up with the same answer over and over, so you know it must be right for you. Like Oprah says, "If you hear that little voice in your ear telling you something, you should listen." I have been hearing it for so long and wish I'd been listening better and acted sooner for my son's sake. Be glad you don't have kids in this mix because believe me as much as you don't want to hurt your x, it's a hundredfold in regard to your kids. And just to give you hope I had my big (11 lbs)beautiful baby boy at 41.
You are very wise, blue, and doing a good job thinking this through. God bless.
Hey Bluebayou2, I have a sincere question for ya. My wife wants to leave me and her explaination mirrors yours almost exactly. My W tells me this site is really helping her with this difficult time, so I'm testing the waters today.
I have no idea what your relationship "at home" is like, but a few things said in your post caught my attention. The description of how your H is treating you sounds like things I have done and said.
First, I still love my W with my whole heart, but even though I do.. I still found myself saying hurtful things and reacting to situations badly. When my W said things needed to change, I said OK. I made the changes. Not only did I make the changes, but did so for years and years with my whole heart. I didn't hold a grudge. That's what people do when they love their spouse. But I admit that some things didn't change and for very good reason.
Through the years and following much self analisys, counciling, marriage counciling, parent counciling. The theme of all my sessions was to "let go of the past", "move forward" "possitive thinking" Stinkin' thinkin' keeps you in the bad place. FORGIVE
Married 20 years - three grown kids - Both of us have good jobs - much in common - we get along great... She says I'm attractive, good in the bedroom, funny, good person, good father. but behind all that is. "I just don't feel love for you." "I tried but I just don't feel it."
So, why did I react badly to her in the same ways your H was acting to you? My W says she was in this unhappy place for 13 years or more. She just came to terms with it now and is going to do something about it. Well, my response to that is: I could tell she was unhappy, even if she didn't admit it to me. It angered her if I even brought it up. So, if you don't want to talk about it and you don't want to do anything about it... where does that leave the H? I asked her to acknowledge the fact that I reacted to my environment. Her 13 years of unhappiness was obvious to me but not to everyone else (children, family and friends). I'm happy, now leave me alone. What's a person to do with that.
She tells me she doesn't like the way I treat her, talk to her, try to keep her down and hold her back. I explain why I talk to her the way I do, react the way I do, say the things I do. I'm reacting to her behavior. She looks at it as though I'm trying to place blame. It's not the blame game. I truly believe that if she took ownership of some of her actions, the wounds would be allowed to heal. She has no problem blaming me for her unhappiness. I took full responibility for those things and she compliments the change.
In the end, I think she refuses to forgive and move on. Put it in the past and see me for who I really am instead of the guy she wants to believe I am. She loved me with great passion when we first met then turned it off. I noticed the change. Some people's reactions are simply in response to something else. Why can't people see it for what it is, take ownership, heal and move forward. Why keep yourself in the bad place. I never woke up and said... I think I'll be mean to my spouse for no good reason today. I would say hurtful things because she was hurting me. Not with her words but with a lack of care, affection or understanding.
Maybe your H wants 6 more weeks so you will have more time to open your heart instead of closing your mind. I believe that if you want to see him as a great guy, you will. If you want to focus on his flaws, you will. You simply need to choose and do it with your whole heart. It takes time. The very time he's been asking for.
Those of us on the receiving end are not all bad guys. We react to what's going on around us. We love our W's with everything we have. We are helpless sometimes grasping for every opportunity to give it another chance. We act happy and loving when our W's tell us there's still a chance. We get hurt and defensive when told it's over. We're human... we have feelings to. I told my W that after we seperate, I'm going to find a woman who really loves me. Now, if I don't really mean it, why would I say it? Maybe I'm hurt because she doesn't love me. Maybe I realize that she's going to leave me and I can't do a thing about it. Maybe the thought of being alone hurts so bad. I don't want my wife to leave, not having her next to me when I wake every morning has been horrible.
I wish you the best and hope this message doesn't cause you grief. Everyone here is in support of your leaving him. I'm no professional so maybe they're right. Some of us out there do the wrong things, say the wrong things and hurt those we love because we care too much. If you can admit your mistakes, learn from them and move forward then you are on the path to a healthy relationship. If you live in the past... you're not moving forward. If you hold onto your anger, you stay angry. How can you say you tried to salvage the marriage and rebuild a relationship, if you admit your heart wasn't in it? I'm sure he sensed that and that's why his behavior didn't change. Can you really blame him for that?
I have invested 20 years in this woman I love so much. Is it that hard to believe I'm not willing to walk away without trying every imaginable solution? I don't know your H but I really understand where he's coming from.
So, am I that co-dependant and disfunctional too? or am I looking at this all wrong?
madmax,
I sense that you do love your wife and are afraid of losing her, and I appreciate you trying to help me see my husbands point of view.
First let me say, that I don't for a second think of my husband as a bad guy. He's not, and I care for him a lot, but he was extremely careless of our relationship in the past which has helped to lead us to where we are today. I don't really think that your situation mirrors ours very much. You've been with you wife 20 years, I've only been with my husband 7 (only 2 of those married). You said you've felt your wife was unhappy most of the time but would not admit it, I have always been honest with my husband about how I felt and what I wanted from him, its just that he's always ignored these things until I am so fed up that I am ready to leave, THEN he is ready to change. He does, but only so much. When he's convinced me in the past that he's sincere and I accepted it and started working on the relationship again he then ignored it and took me for granted. You said you've been to counseling and did years of self-analysis, my husband has not, hasn't even suggested it. I have spent most of our years together desperately trying to hold us together, to make things work. I gave up a full-time job so I could help him with his business and spend more time with him. He fought everything I tried to do to help him, but never came up with a different solution, just complained constantly about the same thing. He'd say I didn't spend enough time with him, but when I'd try to it meant sitting on the couch watching him play video games. He keeps his business limping along, it pays for itself, I pay for us. He has put me in debt, personally, and never even brings it up much less offer to help me pay things off. He doesn't tell me when he is in trouble with things so I'll be going along finally thinking things are under control and we can plan for our future and then I'll be blindsided by something he did not tell me about. He's kept my life a chaotic mess, I feel like we can never move forward AND my husband is 13 years older than me. He's approaching 50 and he still hasn't gotten his life together.
About 10 months ago I finally threw up my hands and said "fine, if he's not willing to put anything into this relationship then I'm just going to focus on what I can take care of and let him worry about himself." I got a full-time job again and just tried to focus on making myself happy instead of waiting for him to come around, but I wasn't thinking about leaving him, only trying to figure out how to live a satisfying life within the limitations of the relationship. All these changes threatened him though and he told me if I wasn't happy I should leave. It clicked then, and I realized this might be true and told him so, he immediately back-tracked and asked for more time. I gave it to him, but told him that I had so much resentment built up towards him that I didn't WANT to work on it anymore, that I would give him time to prove he really would make some changes and see if that made me feel any differently, that was all I could do, no guaratees.
Its true that if we dwell on the bad things that things won't get better, but forgiveness is a tricky business. When someone apologizes, they should only do so if they truly see how they've hurt the other person and truly intend to never do it again. THEN the other person can only accept and forgive if they BELIEVE the one apologizing MEANS what they say and they feel they won't be hurt by them again, either because the one apologizing really won't do the same thing again or because the one being apoligized too can take themselves out of the situation where it can happen again. When I have finally been able to get through to my husband how badly something he did has hurt me (maybe not even because he realizes it but only because he sees that its making me want to leave him and that hurts HIM) and he says he will change, then the next day he expects me to have forgiven him and be over it and be loving as if nothing has happened when he has yet to offer a shred of proof that he will really do what he said.
I can't love him, and forgive him if I don't feel safe with him. He has not been able to make me feel safe, he continues to do things that make me feel unsafe. An occasional overly critical hurtful comment from a mate who has overall been a good trustworthy person is easily forgiven, but when the track record has been bad then something minor can be the straw that broke the camels back. Think of it like a checking account, if you've overdrawn the checking account too much, you don't just get to go to the bank and say "Well, I've decided to be good from here on out, just forgive me that debt so I can start fresh, okay?" NO. Its doesn't work like that. First you have to pay off the debt of bad feeling, by making lots of deposits of good stuff, then before you can make a single withdrawl you have to put in MORE good stuff so that there will be something to draw from, otherwise you put youself right by into being overdrawn again.
My H and I started off really bad, I never should have stuck with him in the beginning, but I was really young and thought love would be enough to make it work. It wasn't. When we tried it again, he almost got the "account" current, but then a bad year sent him right into debt with me again. Now, frankly, I'm older and wiser. I could give him more time, I know from his track record that he can be "good" for awhile, I do know he loves me and will try. I just don't have a lot of confidence that it will make enough of a difference. The fact is I don't want him to try to change for me anymore. That was my mistake (I don't pretend to be blameless here). I should have accepted from the get-go before I married him that who is was then was who I was going to be with, I should have been able to love him as that person without needing it to change to make it work. I didn't do that, I married him on an understanding that things were going to change. It just really didn't, a tiger can't change his stripes and what right do I have to expect it anyway?
Obviously, this man has many good traits, which I have not dwelt on here, but which are there none-the-less and I am aware of them, otherwise there would be no conflict. In many ways my husband has matured somewhat in our relationship, if he were to start a new relationship with someone who he didn't have a "love debt" with, doing the things he does now, I think he might have the chance at a really good, happy relationship, but with me he owes so much he needs to be above reproach for a long while before I'll be willing to give back again. He swears he could never love anyone else but me and if I leave that's it for him. I think that's ridiculous and childish. How can we make a relationship work if he doesn't want a healthy, happy relationship? He just wants me like I'm an object to be had? I'll only be happy if I can have that new car? The object itself can never make us happy.
We don't have grown children, we don't have any children. I want them, but am not the type of person who can willfully bring children into a dysfunctional relationshp. I'm 35 and feel like there is still time to start over fresh with someone, someone I can accept for who they are because I made a grown-up decision based on a truer compatibility rather than just because I "loved" them despite every warning sign that could be thrown at me that this person couldn't make me happy - not because he doesn't want me to be happy but simply because we aren't wired the same way.
It all comes down to time for me. Perhaps if I didn't want children, I'd be willing to give him more time to see if he can balance the debt. I don't know. I do know that I am ready to have a relationship that is a true partnership, I don't want to be 20 years into a relationship and say, boy, that never did fulfill me did it? I kept thinking it would eventually but it didn't. I'd have no one to blame but myself if I did that.
I'm really not sure of your situation, we only see a snapshot on these boards not the whole thing. But if your wife says she doesn't love you anymore, the reason is almost pointless. You sound like you've made a true effort to be a good husband, I'm not sure if she tried honestly or not from her point of view, but wanting to make something work and being able to do so are different things. True, you both need to want it (at the same time) in order for it to have a chance but sometimes when something has broke too many times it just can't be put back together again, or the effort to do so would be so gargantuan as to simply not be worth it. Remember the childs nursery rhyme about Humpty Dumpty?
You do deserve to be with a woman who loves you. So why waste anymore time on one who doesn't want to? I know she probably gives you hope, and as long as you see that you don't want to quit trying, but do you know how hard it is to look someone in the eye who you care about (your family - because what is a husband of 20 years if not family?) and say "I don't love you, I want nothing to do with you anymore, there is nothing for you here, now go away." This would be the only way to kill hope, and its cruel, hurtful and never a 100% true. Its the best way to do it of course, but some people just don't have it in them, and if neither of you can be the strong one then you are doomed to be forever stuck in a limbo of dissatisfaction and frustration. Neither of you deserve that and if you can't say to yourself, "Well, if she won't work on it I'll have to end this so that I can move on and have a relationship with someone who will love me for who I am." then yes, you probably are co-dependent.
I don't think you are dysfunctional, and your reasons for wanting to keep trying are valid, and actually I relate to them a lot. One of the reasons trying to decide if I should leave my marriage is so hard is simply because I've already invested so much I hate to give up now, but as Kenny Rogers said, "you got to know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em." Is it time to fold them? When do we hold out and when do we cut our losses and move on? You can only make that decision for yourself, you can't decide for your wife.
I'm sorry this is so long, but it did strike a chord and I felt the need to explain my thinking, they may not be your wifes, but a reason only needs to be good enough for the person making the decision.
Good luck with everything. I hope things get better for you, and remember that you have choices too, and whatever you decide to do, make it a decision that you truly believe will make your life better for having chosen it.
Hi Blue:
You wrote...
Whenever we talk he tries to steer the conversation to what he's done, and isn't it wonderful, and how can I complain when he's done x. What he doesn't understand, despite me trying to communicate it to him many times, is that it's not about what he's done recently, its about what he didn't do when it was needed. He wants me to forget that and move forward but sometimes you just can't repair something after you've broken it. So the little grain of truth in there, is that this just isn't working for me regardless of how great a guy he may be (and in many ways he is) or could possibly become.
You put that so well. I have appreciated your posts and the responses. I feel we have somewhat similar situations, however, my husband said "it will kill me" when I told him I wanted to separate. I did not make him leave. And I have written down some deal breakers. On my side, I am trying to "be nice". A real effort this time. Guess I'm trying to see if my feelings will change. Due to new developments of his lying and deceiving (over the past two weeks) there are some moments where I really doubt my ability to mend things well enough to stick with it.
If I read my situation on this board, I would wonder why I wouldn't have left by now. I think back to the first 6 months when he broke a chair and didn't come back til the next day...shoulda gotten out then.
Anyway, Blue, thanks for sharing.
My thought is he probably can be good for 6 weeks. How will he be in 12 weeks?
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