Joint/Full Legal/Physical Custody Ideas.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-08-2004
Joint/Full Legal/Physical Custody Ideas.
2
Fri, 07-15-2005 - 10:36pm

Pianoguy and others who answered; thanks so much for taking the time to share information with me; it was much appreciated.-

WARNING THIS IS A BAD NOVELETTE in length and probably content. Yes its good to get any point of view, including of course a man's, especially as you went through something similar. With so much pain on both sides, its really hard to make decisions that are best for the children. I had a lawyer for 6 1/2 months of our divorce process; he was very aggressive, and very expensive. Stbx and I were no closer to figuring out a way to agree and so not have to go to full trial, and I was not wanting to keep running up credit card bills so I discontinued the lawyer supposedly representing me and the children.

Long history: First, of course there is always, always two contributing in a relationship, and two who were responsible for it falling apart. I know that. We just couldn't go any further. He is religious though, and does not 'believe' in divorce and forbid it. Sigh. What was a close, companionable and loving relationship for about 12 years started being strained when our special needs son was diagnosed. We both dealt with that differently I know. I wanted counseling through a Christian family psychologist who was recommended by close friends; stbx refused. He doesn't 'believe' in psychology or psychiatry. He had about 18 months earlier started attending and became a member of a very, very conservative religion and what was already a controlling personality became something I could not even face any longer for the sake of our sweet little ones. I tried to stay, I tried. I hate it -- but I quit, I couldn't take anymroe. I gave up. The guilt I feel from not being able to put up with ANYTHING for my childrens sake is why these decisions are so hard for me. Its why when he says he and his parents can give our children a better, stable life than me, I find it hard to argue. I have nothing. I am 16k in debt from the lawyer, and living on credit cards while he found ways to delay and/or not pay the temporary child support for 5 months. (He would give us groceries on the doorstep, he would give me cash payments of about $200 or up to $400, then none for twenty-nine days - knowing the court system won't take steps on back cs issues til he is 30 days or more overdue...)

I couldn't continue, I was being erased. I couldn't live as he wanted - what he considers a good 'mate' now includes 169 rules(only a slight exaggeration), 99% of which encompass my basically acting towards him in a manner I consider to be obedient...like a teen perhaps; a little perogative to make decisions with the children and not much else. Answering to him for everything became the norm, wearing the sort of proper clothing he approved of, all budgetary decisions decided by him (though before that we made larger decisions together, and I handled at least items that were under say, $200 without having to get permission, or debate, or put in writing justification for it. It became very, very stringent then.), all my time accounted for - the only free time I had was basically when I went grocery shopping anyhow, sheesh. I had five children, homeschooled them, one autistic, older ones in sports or activities, doctor appointments - normal mommy things.....not like I was anywhere almost anytime unaccounted for. Understand this was not in anyway a type of 'jealousy' from him or a suspicion that I was in some way being unfaithful. Neither of us ever had any issues like that in our relationship. This was more just him controlling his universe very closely; the kids, our day to day schedule, activities, money, any plans in the immediate future, situations connected with his family business and his parents who own it and which he manages for them, etc.

Anyhow...what became his ultra-conservatism was all enveloping in our home. Anytime the news was on, there was a constant lecture/commentary on it; when I might discuss some hot topic ie, gays, unemployed people, people of color, acquaintances/friends who were liberal politically - there would be a total shut-down of my opinion with insults of course in front of the children, or if I decided it was important enough and disagreed, huge fights, including of course in front of the children. I want our children to grow up with values yes, faith yes, but with functioning minds...brain cells operating to make decisions of their own, to make determinations about friends based on the individual not just something on the outside or some external criterion like race etc. Our parenting desires as well as how best to help our autistic son (stbx and his mother at first told me I was crazy, or too close to my little baby when at 17 months he started exhibiting autistic symptoms. It took me 7 months before he agreed to my taking our little guy to a university-related specialist. He delayed my getting help for our boy for over a year because he didn't want to get into the 'system' - even though we could have gotten some minimal help from our local school district.)

I did copycat tablework and verbal skills lessons with him, by buying resources from the internet and every book I could get my hands on about autism. I am so thankful he is where he is right now. He just turned six; he can read; he loves playing with other children now, has fewer sensory issues and has an amazing talent with sketching and drawing....still has communications issues; but he has come from an almost non-verbal status with 6 words, or repetitive phrases and many, many sensory issues to being about 18 months 'behind' developmentally. He may be able to get mainstreamed in school, IF and WHEN he gets to go.

So now, I cannot afford a lawyer. He still has his $350 per hour one, though he says his business is hurting so much because of the planned move and he is 'broke'. I would LOVE a mediator; can only hope this judge will so rule that. Without a lawyer I can't even figure out how to contact the court when I need to. I have a little bit of money set aside to be able to pay a paralegal for looking over whatever ends up being the final divorce/custody agreement and that is it. I have no reserves; credit cards are maxed and I am not/ cannot get more plastic. My credit was perfect with no debt at all; now it is about to become the worst and I cannot honestly get more credit cards to pay more lawyers when I can't pay off the current credit cards or the still-owed amount to the lawyer I did have. I paid him over 9k, plus owe him 5k still.

Stbx got our first assigned judge removed by finding a little known rule here in California which allows either side to request it once. We appeared before her twice; once for my initial filing of the divorce papers. At that time she assigned the temp custody child support amount, the temporary custody orders (the children with me, he getting them eo weekend and two nights a week.)And set the date for the next hearing. He would not give me the cs, he brought food to us weekly; his parents had a real estate company buy the house we lived in (we leased it from them) supposedly in a 'distress sale' - then the real estate company served me with eviction papers giving 'us' 60 days to move out. He was still in the home. I would leave and go to the library or anywhere for two hours several evenings a week so we would not argue with the kids. After a couple weeks of that he would start arguing with me when I got home late at night, he closed the bank accounts. He verbally forbid me to divorce. You can imagine this scenario. My lawyer wanted to do an RO for emotional abuse almost immediately; I delayed for about one month from when I filed. So that first judge read the evidence (no physical abuse but very aggressive, angry shouting at all hours of any night, the children and I being very upset, the police called by his parents once because I would not let them enter to 'inspect' the house according to what my lawyers advice was on the supposed eviction notice...etc). That judge ruled on a short RO for three weeks; basically to give him a 'cooling' off period; to keep him from lecturing/hollering at me and giving the children Bible lessons about wives who don't obey their husbands etc. He was to move in with his parents who live two blocks from the house we leased from them.

He of course got even more angry, fired the lawyer he had at that time, and got the judge (a female white, jewish 'liberal feminazi' according to stbx) recused. About three days later I was summoned with 24 hours notice to a short hearing in court; and it was to find out that he had gotten that first judge 'removed'and we were assigned another, a commissioner working as a family court judge on the bench here in our county. My lawyer said it was a fairly rare thing to be done; but not to worry much - that we would proceed with the case as was planned. He said he thought the commissioner assigned to us is know as being one of the toughest in our state; but is also known to be fair and to make his decisions for the children's sake. I do not feel like he is very fair, but that is subjective of course. He took the children from my primary physical custody and made it near 50-50. We had completed the court-assigned family psychological profile so he had that to go on; the overall results of that report stated that both of us scored in the norm range on the personality tests, the children loved and are bonded well to both of us; neither of us have any financial, alcohol or drug abuse issues. It was at that point stbx brought into the case that he 'had' to move his family business and it was his livelihood and method of supporting our whole family so if the owners of the company were moving it, he 'had' to go along with that. Our 'family' had indeed discussed moving out of California eventually -for like the previous 10 years it was an annual topic at the Thanksgiving table or other family get-togethers. It was almost a running joke; one of his parents very much wanted to move, the other did not; reasons to and against. I was very much in favor and helped research real estate a couple of times years ago; but it was not going to be something that was done probably til one or both of his parents passed away. He and they made the decision AFTER I filed for divorce, I am sure, as part of his way of being able to win custody - an all or nothing proposition I guess, since he is the white knight upon a white horse in gleaming armor...never did anything wrong, cannot understand why his wife would not stay in the marriage - lots of people are not happily married, you just stay you know, because that is the bed you made etc, etc.

The new judge reissued another temporary order over-riding the first one. It said basically we have 50-50 temporary physical and joint legal custody. It assigned a lawyer to the children (who never contacted me but did contact his lawyer and was told we were working out our own agreement), it stipulated he and I both split childcare costs; no cs from either of us; no alimony or support to me for the temporary period; I was directed to find employment. In the prior order I could not, because I was told to continue homeschooling the children for the temporary period and if I did not, then the stbx would be allowed to have them for 75% of the time and would homeschool them. He is against allowing the children to go to public schools; another of our disagreements. I believed the homeschooling was fruitful and a very good thing when they were young; they tested well and were involved in other activities. But when our son was diagnosed and I had so much more to do with him, I started asking stbx if we could enroll the other children in school then (they would have gone to second and third grades, and one in junior high), but he would not allow it. The newest temp order mentioned that we were both to begin psychological counseling, and to enroll the children in two programs for children of divorce. He told me he was NOT ever going to any psychologist. I sent him info on one of the programs for the childrens programs and gave him a flyer so we could decide about enrolling them, but he said he doesn't 'believe' in paying other people to tell him what to do and he wouldn't let our children go be brain washed and if I took them he would pick them up from the center. I had a counselor from December through the time I let my lawyer go; could not afford to keep going; she was wonderful and let me come for several appointments with no payment but I had to stop.

If you are still reading and awake, *laughs sadly, we have said during our discussions that we both think the children would be best together if at all possible. Our older son has a rough relationship with his father and always had one...they are very different ...the father is/was a jock, son tried to be same, but with not as splendid awards etc...actually it started early on when son didn't learn to tie his shoes fast enough, took a WHOLE WEEK to learn how to ride the bike when the training wheels came off on his fifth birthday...etc. So theirs is maybe a sort of stereotypical relationship; and with the teen years it has become more difficult and with the divorce more tenous of course. I have abided by the initial judges and the second one's ruling/advice about not talking with the children about things to do with the divorce ...and pretty successfully have been able to shield them from a lot. STBX did at first, but after he got the new lawyer and we got the new judge he started a campaign to disrespect me with the kids of course. I know some of that goes on in all divorces; and I don't care for my reputation/image right now - but if he makes them think I am 'bad' - a liar, not responsible, the reason they will be miserable children of a divorce etc, won't that grow in their little hearts? I never wanted to keep them from him. I offered him from the beginning as near to a 50-50 parenting plan as is possible with both parents working...he forbids divorce though. He wants full legal custody, wants the children to live with him, and does not want the 'typical' or 'normal' divorced parenting plan, ie eo weekend, alternating years/holidays, only two weeks in the summer, wants me to agree to come to their house - he is buying a home large enough with a basement and it will have a permanent guestroom I could stay in when I come to 'see' them. He wrote in this agreement he is trying to get me to sign, that he would be very reasonable with allowing my visits, but he wants the childrens lives to be the least upset as possible...that their life be as much like it was before the divorce. So he would make decisions on my visiting for instance based on if there were a gymnastics competition ongoing, or the football team has made it to the playoffs. On the surface that sounds so thoughtful and loving for the kids.

I also don't want them 'bouncing' back and forth between two households etc, especially the littlest ones. But his idea is unreasonable. It just gives him continuing control over me really; it gives him the ability to 'punish' me for breaking up the family. I told him verbally as I went over the agreement I would agree to most of it - including giving up retirement benefits I would get, turning down the alimony; agreed to him keeping most of the household belongings (he has them anyhow, including the wedding rings etc.) I just want the children to be hurt as little as possible, and I want to somehow live near them but not so near him. I thought I would stay here the next few years, or even move somewhere that is less expensive to live and that I would visit them, email, phone, have them come for visits to me based on when I could afford it at first. Then when I finish my degree and get this lawyer bill paid off I would look for a position in an area in the same state, not necessarily the exact same city but near enough to be able to attend their school events, etc. I finally got a job almost two months ago; it is in the field I have experience in from my military service - journalism; but I do not have a bachelor's so am not getting the same amount of money of course just reentering the job market. It is a good solid company though and I think I would have a long period of employment with them.

He calls and emails almost every day saying I have to sign the agreement before we go before this judge on the 29th; or something drastic is going to happen to our children and it will be all my fault. I left him in December; the children were with me and just visited him until about a month ago. We met and discussed a 10 point custody agreement - I didn't sign anything; we just verbally talked it out and he was going to have his lawyer do it in " legaleeze".

What he has delivered to me now is a document which has 63 numbered items in it, most of which we did not discuss and the leading item is not something I EVER agreed to and cannot - item one says husband will get SOLE LEGAL and full physical; item two lists that the visitation will take place at the home of the sole custodian, the children's residence, dates and times to be 'reasonably' worked out between the two parents based on the childrens'schedules of school, special needs classwork, normal daily schedules and recreational pursuits scheduling.

What that says to me is he will be the one to decide if I can visit, that I must visit under his watchful eye, when I may visit...of course I could be made to leave at any disagreement etc because it will be his property...omg I cannot believe he is using the children to make me 'pay' for leaving him. He has recreated in his mind, for his parents and friends edification our whole divorce time period; made me into the bad, deceiving ex-wife who planned this all out and who since she changed into a 'liberal' he cannot allow his children to be exposed to her lifestyle, after all she does 'yoga' and burns incense...next thing you know I might actually vote for Mrs. Clinton and that would be a travesty wouldn't it.

I am sorry; my sarcasm is not helping anything. I don't seem able to stay balanced right now. I am scared to lose my kids; I don't see how in the world I can take care of them - and they will be subjected to such a hard life for these next years compared to what he will give them; I don't want to just be selfish and try to 'keep' them at all costs; but I love them so much. I want them to have as much of their father and a relationship with him to the extent they want; I just also want to love them and care for them too, in some manner of a separate life from him. Here comes what is probably the biggest divorced parent whine in the universe: I need to divorce HIM, not divorce my children."

So if the judge continues his temp order and continues to rule that we must go to trial on the next hearing in two weeks, I just don't know what to do. I cannot afford a lawyer, period. STBX has said his business is not making any money so he cannot pay for a retainer as the temp order said he must to help me get a lawyer. I have a job, so I cannot qualify for county legal aid; I have already tried. If stbx storms out of the courtroom, saying since I won't sign his full legal agreement he does not want the children - my heart will sing!

But then, with no one to help me care for them what will I do? If the childcare I am able to piece together is not to his liking he will get Social Services to investigate me and take away the children? Can he do that based on the fact that my apartment is only two bedrooms? There is some county subsidized child care where if you qualify the county pays some percentage of homebased daycare providers and I can sign up, but it has a waiting list; there is no 'emergency' type childcare services available here. I have friends but no one who is able to watch the four little ones full time for any length of time, of course they will help for a couple days but they work too. I am not explaining any of this to just vent or whine. I want someone not close to my life or situation to tell me --- am I just taking a chance of hurting my children and having them taken away because I can't provide for them...maybe having them go through the nightmare of being put in some foster home etc --- just so I can 'keep' my babies? I am not seeing clearly. I want to not be selfish. Should I sign whatever he wants so that they can have a secure, stable transition to his new life in the other state? Shall I justify to myself that I can move there and be nearer to them, and eventually earn his okay to visit with them frequently and be a real part of their life? I could so take almost anything FOR them; if I could just figure out what that BEST thing is/would be.

I cannot say thanks enough for anyone taking the time to read this. It is unbelievable the support and encouragement people get on this board. While there are some disagreements here, I have not once read anyone telling someone else they were making a bad decision or insulting each other or the 'judgementalism' I live so with in my life.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-12-2004
Sat, 07-16-2005 - 1:37am
Everything you say about his behavior, personality, and the way he treats you makes me think you are/were in an abusive relationship. Have you considered seeking DV assistance from your state? I am sorry I have no knowledge of what to do here (I live overseas) but may I suggest you take a peek at the 'dealing with domestic abuse' board. It doesn't have to be physical to be considered abuse. There are lots of women who have been through similar situations and can offer some great advice. Just please don't give in on this until you have looked at all possibilities. Please try talking to the ladies on the board I mentioned and see what they have to suggest.
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-13-2004
Sat, 07-16-2005 - 3:22am
OMG!!!!! Your stbx sounds like an absolute nut job! He doesn't DOES NOT have a right to keep the kids away from you! You are their mother whether he likes it or NOT! If he is badmouthing you to the kids and trying to get them to turn against you, then he is practicing parental alienation syndrome, which courts don't look very favorably on, and that alone could cause him to lose custody. Children have a right to both parents. Have you been documenting this man's behavior and the controlling and emotionally abusive behavior? If not, START!! and start NOW!! Any documentation will only help later on. As far as the home schooling, how in the hell are you supposed to home school and still find and keep a job. Him and his lawyer have you in a catch 22. He is being completely unreasonable just because you want a divorce and his ego is hurt. What a creep! Your ex needs to read a book called "Divorce Poison" by a man named Richard A. Warshak. It talks about things like parental alienation syndrome and how not to drag the kids in the middle of all the ugly divorce crap. Doubt he would read it though, but maybe you would benefit from it. Along with parental alienation, he is also using finances as a way to control you and "cut you off at the knees". This is abusive as well. He is not an idiot. He isn't going to let his own kids starve just to get back at you, but is doing just enough to try to get you to cave! ABSOLUTELY do not let him force your hand and get you to give up the kids. I truely believe that if he gets custody of the kids, and I HIGHLY DOUBT ANY COURT would allow him FULL legal custody, he would make it extremely difficult for you to see the kids, and would continue his controlling tactics with them and continue his compaign to alienate you from them! Document EVERYTHING this man says and does!!! Research attorneys and legal services to find help with this. Enlist the help of friends and family if possible. Do everything you can and do not give up. Go the counseling and tell the counselor of his controlling behavior and his attempts to alienate you from the kids. Kill your ex (not literally, lol) with kindness, but don't allow him to talk to into anything you don't want. Stand up for yourself and what you feel is best for the kids. Try sending your ex a letter (keep a copy of course) telling him that you are sorry that he is hurting over this pending divorce. Be honest but word things in such a way that you mention how you were unable to continue living in that rigid environment (give examples) and ask that he not continue to badmouth you to the kids. Use specific examples of this if you can; this can be used later as documentation. Tell him that you understand that he is angry but that the two of you need to be respectful of each other in order to coparent the kids. Tell him that they need you just as much as they need him and that continuing to try to alienate you from the kids will only hurt the children in the long run. Don't say anything in the letter that could come back to haunt you later, but use this as an attempt to smooth things over and well as using the letter as documentation, and to show that you truely have the children's best interest at heart and are not out to smear him. After you send the letter if he responds in anger or is abusive document that as well. In the book it mentions that sometimes trying to smooth things over with the spouse that was left sometimes decrease the amount of animosity toward the spouse who left. Try this, and if nothing else, you will have the letter as documentation to show the court that you attempted to be fair. Good luck with this. Let us know who it goes.