Lawyer Woes

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
Lawyer Woes
11
Sat, 01-08-2005 - 11:51am

As some of you know, I was suffering from a lot of anxiety because I didn't really understand how my lawyer proposed to charge and for what. I pressured (politely) for more information and after a week the lawyer sent me a letter saying she did not think she could represent me because there was no trust between us.

What this means is that I still haven't filed for divorce and because of the laws of this state I can't even get a court date until 90 days after we file. So everything is going to be delayed.

I am angry and upset. I don't know if I was at fault to question the lawyer. She wanted me to trust her, but I didn't know her. And I was just asking for what seemed to me reasonable information. Since I've never had a lawyer before, I don't know what is/isn't usual.

This was one of those no-win situations: if I had not pressured her for clearer billing information, I would have been unhappy/uncertain about bills all through the divorce. I would have been afraid to ask a question for fear it might add up to a lot of money, etc. But because of her quitting on me after a month of talking, I now don't have a lawyer and need to start all over.

I feel like I am getting no where. I still haven't found a house. Now I don't have a lawyer. It took me from September to November to find a lawyer. It took the lawyer from before Thanksgiving to after Christmas to ready a retainer agreement and the divorce complaint papers. And now I have to start over.

I am so scared. It feels as if I can't do anything right, not even hire a lawyer.

Emi

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iVillage Member
Registered: 02-19-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sat, 01-08-2005 - 11:56am
You didn't do anything wrong, and you are probably better off without her representing you. If she can't be clear and upfront, then there is no way you could depend on her. I think it's really weird for a lawyer to expect 'trust' from you. I know this has delayed the process, but it is not your fault. Hang in there and take the first step, start to look for another lawyer. You will make it through this one step at a time.

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Community Leader
Registered: 01-03-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sat, 01-08-2005 - 5:40pm

Etammi,

If your attorney was so skittish she cuts and runs rather than give you a clear cut idea of expenses, then she did you a favor by bowing out of representing you.

A good lawyer won't flinch if you ask for an estimate of expenses. Indeed, you should be presented with a work agreement right up front that states both the hourly fees, estimated court costs, and when his/her fee applies. For instance, my divorce lawyer said right up front, "I charge my hourly whether I'm working on the paperwork or cooling my heels in the hallway outside of court waiting to be called in for your case." There was no guessing.

You can find out filing fees easily enough on your own. Just call the clerk of the courts at your county courthouse. They have a fee schedule that you can get by asking. These fees, like filing divorce papers, are set by the county and can not be altered by the attorney.

You also have a right to ask for an itemized bill from your lawyer, including every fax, hourly charge, court fee, etc. You have the right to ask for a billing frequency you can handle: monthly, quarterly etc.

Trust is a two-way street. You don't have to like your attorney but you should believe he or she is doing his or her best to represent YOUR INTERESTS in this event. The lawyer you had needs to grow up or find another profession.

P.S. Sometimes you find out who to avoid by just asking around. You may also find a gem. Ask lots of questions and if they balk when you ask for a work agreement and the above - get up and walk. It's not worth it if your lawyer won't work with you.

Good luck. It will seem like forever, but it will happen faster than you think.

Wisdomtooth

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sat, 01-08-2005 - 9:24pm

Thanks, First.

I know I am better off without her--but I also worry that the next one may be the same. This one seemed all right. I chose her after interviewing several lawyers because she was the one who answered more questions about the process. She only got strange when I wanted to know about the billing. She told me $200 an hour, but she wasn't specific what that covered. I was concerned and asked her specifically and she did the "don't worry," bit.

A part of me knows that I did nothing wrong, but all my life people have scolded me for being "too aggressive" or "too picky." My TBX behaves as though I am this nitpicking "my way is the only way" tyrant. So the lawyer's response to my question pushes the buttons that tell me that I am a failure at human relations, that I need to be more tolerant and less demanding of perfection. Or else no one will ever like me or put up with me for long. Not even my lawyer who presumably is paid to put up with me to some extent.

I hate going back to square one. The next lawyer will probably not get any questions from me because I will be afraid to lose him/her. And that makes me feel angry and vulnerable.

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sat, 01-08-2005 - 9:45pm

Thanks Wisdomtooth.

I sort of agree that a good lawyer would be upfront about her charges, but she seemed to feel that I was being upfront and I was being unreasonable to ask for more details. I did get a verbal estimate of costs (between $1500 and $2500) and she did tell me verbally that she would return any money left over from the retainer. But she didn't tell me how much else beyond the filing fee I would be paying over and above the retainer (I want to know that) and what the "usual rate" for typing, copies etc. was. (I hoped for something like, "typist charges are X per page. You can expect to pay somewhere in the vecinity of Y in typing and copying if yours is an ordinary case.") I expected her retainer agreement to include stuff like that, but all it said was that I would pay her $200 an hour and the retainer (or that's what it seemed to say) which was confusing.

She came recommended by someone I trust, but the person who recommended her had not used her for divorce, so it may be different. Unfortunately the other people that I interviewed were also recommended but I was not happy with them.

One thing I really hated was that a lot of lawyers I interviewed wanted me to tell them all my information (name, social security number, etc.) before they would tell me how much they charged per hour and how much a typical divorce cost. I felt that this was a way of being able to investigate me and maybe give me a different rate if they thought I had more money. Maybe I am just paranoid.

I don't really want to spend several weeks looking for a new lawyer. I don't know who else to ask either.

I am afraid that the next lawyer I will just accept whatever s/he says or asks for just cause I don't want to delay the process any further.

Thanks again.

Emi

Community Leader
Registered: 01-03-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sat, 01-08-2005 - 10:13pm

Etammi,

I haven't read your posts so I have no idead what your circumstances are that are driving this divorce. I do have a question though: Is it absolutely necessary to file divorce papers NOW? Is there some compelling issue that says you can't take a breath and assess your situation with a little more objectivity?

You may be very right about the attorneys who insisted on your personal identification information prior to telling you about their services or providing a cost estimate. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they at least ran a credit check on you (they want to get paid too.) But don't feel obligated to give that information to enjoy the "free consultation." If they want that kind of information before giving you an assessment of your case it's not free.

Nor should you just cave in to "get it over with" that's a recipe for (financial) disaster. You could wind up owing thousands of dollars more than you should simply because you're worn down and want to end your misery. I understand that but it shouldn't be the driving force behind hiring an attorney.

I have not read your posts so I don't know your situation. But here's some scenerios that may make an (unethical) attorney try to charge more or string out a case to get more fees:

- Allegations of child sex abuse or spouse abuse.
- Custody and/or visitation battle over children.
- A large inheritance from a parent or grandparent. (The definiton of large is smaller than you think. You might be getting $10K from an estate but some lawyers (and many Ex's) will try to get their mits on it by keeping a case going.)
- A protracted battle over assets: stocks, land, money, a business, future value of a retirement or investment plan, a winning lottery ticket.
- A protracted battle over debts.

If you don't face these circumstances your divorce should be fairly straight forward. If you do, it's all the more important you are careful in who you hire so you are getting good representation at a fair rate.

Lawyers are not gods. They are professionals just like a doctor, mechanic, or cook. They have to compete for business just like any other professional. It's also in their best interest to conduct themselves in a legal and ethical fashion even if they don't think so!

The person you hire should be experienced in divorce, i.e. 24 or more cases annually. Don't hire a "general practioner" if they don't have the type of experience you need. That's asking for more trouble than you already want.

Here's my advice for "shopping" for the next attorney:

1)Write down your LEGAL needs on a piece of paper prior to your meeting. Whatever your concerns: child support, spousal support, debts, visitation, etc. Be matter of fact as possible.

2)Collect and organize your documentation such as tax returns, loan papers, bills, etc. Don't take this with you to the visit, just have it assembled so you don't have to scramble for it when you are ready to hire someone.

3)State your requirement for a working agreement that clearly outlines the retainer, hourly fees, and any other information you require, including frequency of billing and any payment arrangements YOU need. Believe it or not, this is a "new" concept in legal practice. You have to ask for it. Don't be shy.

4)Take a trusted friend with you to the first visit. Have them take notes. Keep it all business even if you want to cry. It's in YOUR best interest to listen and to ask questions.

There are far too many good attorneys out there to take the first thing that comes along. You won't regret investing the time you need to hire the right person. You will regret it if you find yourself left holding the bag (especially the financial bag) after its all said and done and you have no resources to start over.

THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING YOUR INTERESTS AND YOUR FUTURE! This is not a popularity contest or a feel good contest for the attorney across the table.

Finally, it will take a MINIMUM of 90 days to get the ball rolling. Make the time you spend before that first day count by putting your effort up front by hiring the right person. Remember, this isn't your best friend you need here; it's a competent, capable legal advisor who is working to protect your interests. Again, you won't regret investing the time up front. You will regret not doing the homework if you come out the other end scrambling to find grocery money and to keep a roof over your head.

Good luck. This whole process sucks and no one knows better about the desire to get it over with than someone whose been there, but know that those of us who survived count our blessings on the hard work it takes before a single piece of paper is filed and anything is final.

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-19-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sat, 01-08-2005 - 10:21pm

I don't think there is such a thing as a typical divorce. I do think that attorney's have to state their hourly rate, how it works when the fees charged are for work performed by a secretary or paralegal, how the retainer is applied to your bills and when and under what circumstances it will be returned (and things like you said, per page charges for typing or how that is billed).

My attorney was $125 per hour and she did give me an estimate of around $1,200-$1,500 or so, but she also said there was no way to know for sure what the cost was going to be. I never went back and counted but I think it ended up being $2,000 and this was where everyone agreed and the only dispute was a couple hours back and forth when my ex's attorney was saying I made 20% more than I actually made (he was nuts, counting things like expense reimbursements and 401k loan repayment onto my income, and adding a couple extra paychecks per year onto the total). I paid $1,000 retainer but I don't remember if I signed a retainer agreement, I think I did. I felt comfortable with her because she was clear, seemed to know her stuff and answered *all* my questions whenever I called or met with her. She was also open to the idea of an amicable divorce (another lawyer I had talked to said it was unlikely to stay amicable, ugh, I figure since the attorney has the power to *make* it unamicable that was a bad sign).

When we started the process we had already separated, agreed on all custody issues and the custody schedule was in place and working well, we had separated all our belongings, sold our house and paid off all joint debts with the house proceeds. So there wasn't much to do except make it all legal. My attorney prepared all the documents, went over them with me, sent them to my ex's attorney for them to review, we had one set of minor changes, we all signed and it was filed (hired the attorney in January, filed in early April). After the 90 day waiting period there was one more draft of the document and it was filed again as the final decree. Then we just had to wait a few months for the court to rubber stamp it (divorce was final in September).

My sister is an attorney (not a divorce attorney) and she told me the one thing to make sure I asked was whether the attorney has a policy of returning all calls the same day, or at least by the next day. She said an attorney that doesn't return calls is not worth it.

I hope this helps some. I still think you did exactly the right thing with this attorney. If you has a question that they can't answer, like if you want a better estimate or the estimate in writing, they should be clear on why they can't answer the question (for example, they can't guarantee an estimate so they would be reluctant to put it in writing), they should *not* fault you for not trusting them.




Edited 1/8/2005 10:25 pm ET ET by firstamendment

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iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sun, 01-09-2005 - 1:28am

Thanks Wisdomtooth for your words of wisdom. ;)

The thing about my divorce is that it's perfectly amicable. We have no real debts, no disputes about property, no major disagreement about the kids. Only one of them is under 18, and although we have some disagreements about how to handle him, there is no real dispute about custody. (We're going to share it.) We do have a bit of money that came from a recent inheritance (his) but we have no dispute about that either. We aren't even going to quarrel about the furniture or the cat.

However, I am afraid that if things drags on, we will have more disagreements. The situation with our son is under control, but he is ADD and a teenager, anything may happen. Also, if we separate too much before the divorce, my husband may come to feel lonely and resent the loneliness. So the sooner we get the legal stuff out of the way, the better.

Unfortunately, I don't have a choice. I will have to look for another lawyer. It's just that I have no faith that the next one will be any better.

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sun, 01-09-2005 - 1:40am

Thanks for the advice and the support, Firstamendment.

I have a "checklist" of questions to ask a lawyer, and one of the questions is about fees, but it isn't as specific as the questions you suggest. I will add them to the list.

I wish I could just sit down with a lawyer and tell him/her what my husband and I have agreed on and then file the papers.

I'm going to check if it is possible to file the initial complaint without a lawyer and then get a lawyer to do the rest. That would save time, at least.

It's so hard to know about a lawyer just with one meeting.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-28-2003
In reply to: etammi
Sun, 01-09-2005 - 1:43am

emi.


you didn't do anything wrong - *YOU* are not a failure. you made a mistake with your lawyer - who hasn't??? all of us have. i know that *I* always think that lawyers are brilliant (after all, they got into law school) and just, and right, etc - but you know that's not always true and there are good lawyers and bad lawyers and lazy lawyers - it sounds like this woman was just sloppy and lazy.you are PAYING Her for a SERVICE - and you have EVERY RIGHT to ask as many questions as you need to ask - its HER job to make you feel comfortable; its not something that comes automatically.


the good news is - now you are free to find a lawyer that YOU will feel comfortable with. arm yourself with ALL the questions - in writing - before your first meeting. DON'T be embarrassed to ask how much EACH meeting/phone call etc is going to cost, and remember that most (not all) lawyers will do a free first consult.


hugs.....

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
In reply to: etammi
Sun, 01-09-2005 - 11:40am

Thanks Sk,

This thing has hit me very hard because not only does it delay everything but it makes me feel incompetent. Yes, the lawyer was sloppy and was clearly putting my case at the bottom of her priorities. Yes, the lawyer was unreasonable to expect me to trust her about money at the same time that she kept telling me that I shouldn't trust my husband (whom I've known for 22 years and whose many obnoxious quirks have never included greed about money). But I was ready to hire her and I failed to ask all the specific questions up front. (I trusted, because she told me they would be, that they would be answered in the retainer agreement.)

I am frightened. I need a lawyer that I can trust. I don't know how I can find one.

There is so much about this divorce that pushes me to worry about things that I am not used to worrying about! The business about buying a new house and moving has me in a constant state of anxiety already. I am afraid (probably without reason) that I will not be able to afford living alone unless I cut back sharply. And if I do that, the children will be impacted.

One reason I want to get it over and done with is that until it is I am going to be worrying about what it may be like until it is done. I really needed to feel "safe" about my lawyer.

I am very discouraged because this all means that the horrible, unpleasant limbo that I am in will last indefinitely.

Thanks for listening.

Emi

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