Question on Joint Legal/Full Physical

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-08-2004
Question on Joint Legal/Full Physical
7
Fri, 07-15-2005 - 10:25am

Hello ladies...

hope this day has some bright, loving spots in it for you. I am almost through this divorce; but no longer have a lawyer. I will have whatever final papers he wants me to sign looked over by a paralegal before finalization. In the meantime, I have been firm all along that we must have Joint Legal, and Full Physical to whichever parent has the children residing with them the majority of the time. He has, is trying to get me to sign custody which would give him full legal and full physical really strange visitation plans. He says the children should have their lives upset the least and visitation should take place at or very near their residence, and based on their recreational activities etc not every other holiday or flying them back and forth (he is moving out of state once the custody is decided.)

I have been told a very low percentage of divorce/custody decisions go to full trial, but I guess we must. The psychological study assigned by the courts found both of us to be very good parents, and that the children are strongly bonded to both of us. We cannot have joint physical custoday with a near 50-50 sharing parent plan since he is moving his business out of state, and depends on it for a livlihood. July 29th is our pre-trial hearing with the judge. Stbx's lawyer sent a file to the judge's bench which stated the two of us were mediating and working out our own custody stipulation. There are like 18 items in it - which I would agree to for the children's sake, but I just will not sign away full legal to him nor not get decent visitation in their lives...he will erase me if I do, no matter what he 'promises' right now. He is the most controlling personality I have ever met. I can only hope the judge takes the time to read this supposed custody agreement and sees that what I am being asked to agree to is not near what a 'norm' agreement would be for a non-custodial parent. He has money, a business and parents who are highly involved in the childrens lives. I have no living family and this is the part which the courts have somewhat balked at and the judge made a 50-50 joint physical and join legal parenting plan for the temporary period until the trial. His family was my family for the last 15 years; I cannot do anything about the fact that my family is not intact and/or have passed away. So he has a good 'support' system as well as the finances to provide a good 'stable' life for our children, whereas I will be a single parent with an entry level job (having been a stay at home mom for over 12 years), and with no family nearby to help with emergencies, child care etc.

I love my little ones so much (five, ages 15 to 4 years old.) I have planned to finish my degree and pay off as much of this lawyer debt as possible and then move to the same area where he will move them if he gets custody. But it may take awhile, and I do not want to sign anything which will prevent me from ever helping any of the kids, or what if he has an accident/is killed - I don't want them to be given to his family; and what about unseen scenario's like what if one or more of the children as they grow older need/want to move in with me for awhile out of curiosity or whatever? I have told him if the courts grant him physical custody, while my heart will be numb, I would not 'try' to get another lawyer someday to 'take' the kids back. I will go and live near so I can be a meaningful part of their lives, yet be away from him enough to breath. I cannot offer anymore; I feel my endurance is low anyhow. I have a counselor, and friends who encourage me. I know I am trying to make the best decision for our children; though there is no best decision in divorce as far as they are concerned. And that is what he keeps me so upset about...he calls often and tells me various scenario's that are going to happen.

He recently said if we walk into that court room on July 29th without an agreed-upon custody plan already signed between us, the judge is probably going to assign a lawyer and Social Services is going to take the children because he will not agree to going to a psychologist or allowing his children to which the judge had in our temporary agreement...and other things; he says I cannot even get childcare in the summer for all five, that I will lose my job because he will just walk out of the court, leave the kids with me and disappear. Then he will ask for an investigation as to how I am getting daycare for them where we are living etc (I only have a two bedroom apartment right now.) When I hear him say those things, my immediate reaction of course is to say 'fine, go ahead and I will do whatever is necessary and the kids and I will make it.' But he hammers home how the kids are going to be put in social services and a temporary home until I can make enough money to support them, that he will disappear and not give me any alimony or cs if the courts try to tell him to, and then he will reappear later - and petition to get the children anyhow. His family has never had a divorce in it, he is religious and forbid me to divorce him from the beginning and wanted me to go to a preacher for counseling with him, but he would never go to a counselor who was a psychologist or psychiatrist with me to work on our relationship. We have one special needs child, who is doing great this year and I am so thankful, but it adds yet more pressure to the decisions. I couldn't stay with him any longer, not even for my wonderful, sweet children. I thought when I filed that we would be living in the same place we have for the last 15 years, and the kids would have a broken home, but at least both parents sharing and loving them. I know you have all heard this and much worse. But when you are the one in the midst of the problems its hard not to fixate or to see/think clearly through some of the issues you know?

Aside from venting, I guess the purpose of my post is to ask until I can find out from the paralegal or some lawyer; if we have joint legal, but one has full physical --- in California, that means the one who has the children primarily and with the full physical can make most of the choices for them - schooling, daycare, etc...what about moving? Despite where each parent lives, if one gets another job in a different city or state, can he or she take the children and move, just informing the other parent with all the necessary information? Or do they have to get in writing permission from each other? If I do get awared full physical from the judge, if I could move us to a different part of this state or even another state with a bit more reasonable economy then I know I could make it with them, provide a decent life. This area is super, super expensive in southern california. Anyone with tips or ideas - please share with me if you have time. Be blessed and thanks so much for this forum. Saying prayers for all the parents out there trying to make the best decisions for the children this day. Anna

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 07-15-2005 - 11:04am

Hi Anna!

Hopefully, you won't mind a man's viewpoint about this? PG went through this whole scenerio several years ago.

Mediation is basically a pain in the butt...but the courts insist that a soon-to-be-divorced couple go through one or more of these prior to a full court hearing. Prior to this, it's very important for BOTH HALVES to really talk things out! You need to make things VERY CLEAR when it comes to issues that are most important, and what issues can be compromised amicably.

And sorry...NOBODY CAN HAVE EVERYTHING! So the bit about a parent making all the decisions for your children won't fly! Once the divorce takes place...children LOVE to pit "Mom and Dad" against EACH OTHER!

Most divorced couples usually agree to "joint custody" with a primary residence being with either the mother or father. Visitation...or 'kid time' spent with the other parent is usually agreed upon at the same time.

I realize this might be an unorthodox suggestion...particularly with the younger children in your household...but my first wife and I gave our sons the choice as to which parent they wanted to live with! Ironically...the older son chose me, and the younger son chose his Mom. The EX and I agreed on an 'alternate weekend' visitation arrangement between the two boys. But because each son had other activities (different school stuff, hobbies, etc.) we had to modify it.

We NEVER used (or prevented) either son to reciprocate against the ill feelings we might have had for each other. And NEITHER OF US felt left out when it came to seeing our children.

All I can suggest is that you work as much as you possibly can out between the two of you IN ADVANCE! Lawyers really don't care how much time it takes to resolve an issue...because they "charge" by the 1/4 hour!

What's the point of giving a lawyer money that you can invest in your 5 children instead?

Pianoguy

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-06-2005
Fri, 07-15-2005 - 11:05am

I read your post and just wanted to let you know that I will be thinking of you during your custody battle.

I haven't went through any of this yet, as I am still struggling with leaving my H. Your decision was very brave and couragous. It took lots of strength for you to do that. Someday I will find the strength I need also and walk away.

I also wanted to let you know that I think he is just trying to bully you and scare you into signing the agreement. Your husbands comments sound a lot like my own H. This is one reason I have stayed, because I know it will probably be very ugly.

I wish you the very best.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-12-2004
Fri, 07-15-2005 - 3:08pm
Consider searching for more information about your custody rights as well as the right to C/S if you have full or partial custody. Also, look into the ways to enforce that C/S should dad turn into a 'deadbeat' dad. I have very little experience to offer advice since I am in a quite different situation with my custody situation, but seems to me that what he is telling you is a bunch of hot air. It is all designed to frighten you into giving him what he wants. I think you should take a stand against him and show you mean business when it comes to your children. Guys like that just irk me with their selfishness. I don't have particular sites to suggest for custody that might relate to your situation, but I know there are plenty out there. Search for your state's legal guidelines for determining custody rights, visitations (even over long distance) and child support. If you really want to remain in your children's lives, I would recommend to never give over both the full legal and physical custody. And whether he has some huge extended family or not, I don't think has any bearing on whether you are a necessary part of your children's lives. The money thing is solved by the child support. I know it is easier said than done. But there are ways to enforce it, and he is obligated to assure the children have their mother. From what I hear, courts don't look too kindly on parents who try to cut the other parent out, barring DV cases of course (which is unfortunately my case). I wish you all the best and hope things work out well for you and your children.
iVillage Member
Registered: 01-23-2004
Fri, 07-15-2005 - 3:45pm

It sounds like your STBX is using scare tactics.

My DH and I have both been previously divorced and were both told the same thing by two different attornies. Courts will usually ONLY take kids away from the mother if she has a documented history of drug abuse or if she has blatantly tried to cut the children off from their father. So you have a lot going for you here.

First off, the courts will view your husband's move out of state as his CHOICE. When a parent decides to move away from where the children have an established residence, the courts immediately look to see how that parents move with the children will affect the relationship with the parent who is "left behind."

If you have been the children's primary caregiver, the courts will automatically start out considering YOU to be the best option for physical custody. Ordering your STBX to get to take the children out of state, away from their primary care giver, simply because it is his CHOICE to move will be looked upon as too much of a change for the children. The courts are more likely to think that if a divorced parent wants to maintain a strong relationship with their kids, they do everything possible to remain as physically close to the kids as possible. So the courts will already be suspicious of his intentions.

MOST divorce cases today end up with both parents having joint legal custody and the mother having primary physical custody with the father having visitation. I have only heard of full physical custody when a parent has blatantly abandoned their kids or their is documentation that they have abused the children. In your case, a typical every other weekend visitation schedule will probably not work if your STBX moves out of state, so the court is likely to order that he get extended school holidays and summer with the kids.

Also, most courts would NEVER consider taking a child as young as 4 away from mom. They are also not likely to split up siblings. Therefore the courts would most likely, again, see you as the best option for primary physical custody.

My guess is your STBX's lawyer has told him that he has no chance to get primary physical custody so he is trying to scare you into voluntarily giving it to him. A mediator will know how likely the judge is to give a father primary custody. If the mediator knows it rarely happens, he will tell your STBX that it isn't going to happen. If your STBX refuses to give up the fight, the mediator will report that he was not able to help you both come to an agreement - this will not make the judge happy. When you tell the judge you refused to agree to give your STBX primary custody, it will make the judge mad at your STBX since he knows the mediator will have told him he didn't have a chance.

You will be fine!

iVillage Member
Registered: 02-19-2004
Fri, 07-15-2005 - 4:43pm

Don't agree to full legal. If he got full legal, it might give him the right to move away but you could still fight it if he was asking to take the children. Ask for there to be a provision in the agreement that neither of you can move away and take the children without notifying each other and the court, which automatically gives you the avenue to fight it.

I have 50/50 physical custody and joint legal. If I wanted to move away I could do it if I left dd behind, which I would never do. Same for my ex, he could move if he wanted but he can't take dd unless I agreed, and I wouldn't unless I was moving to the same place.

Photobucket

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 07-15-2005 - 6:18pm

"But he hammers home how the kids are going to be put in social services and a temporary home"

I agree that this is baloney. He is not telling you how the world works, he is trying to frighten you and destroy your will.

Was there any talk about moving his business before the marriage started breaking up? What reasons does he give for a move? It sounds like this may be just another lie. I think once someone starts lying to you... you have to consider each sentence as another possible lie. If he tells the Court he plans to move away and NOT work hard to make sure you still have a strong relationship with the kids, then that will work against him. The parent who has the kids the most hours has a responsibility to facillitate the relationship between kids and non-custodial parent.

I will wish you the best of luck in fighting this bitter, controlling man. And I offer you this one last thought. If he does move the kids someplace else, since you do not have family, school or career weighing you down, you can move there too. Follow your children, wherever he drags them. Good luck.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-13-2004
Sat, 07-16-2005 - 3:52am
I agree with all the other posters. He is using scare tactics on you to get you to cave. Do NOT agree to full legal or full physical to him. This will make it very easy to take the kids and alienate you from them. Make sure you document the kinds of threats that he is making and the bullying that he is doing. This won't make him look very good!
Don't give into this man. Fight for you kids. Good luck.