Need insight into our relationship long)

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-24-2004
Need insight into our relationship long)
8
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 12:16pm
I'm posting this here and also on the guy talk board so you will see a crosspost...hope that's ok

I need some points of view on this..I want to make sure I’m not looking at this problem from within a vaccum and reading these boards the last couple months...I know I'll get many points of view to help me with my decision.

Background on Joe: age 43..Married when he was 19 and wife 1 was 17 (had to get married) and divorced a couple years later..just too young. Married again at 30 and separated in Jan 2004. She is an alcoholic and also suffered from depression and refused to take her meds and the last two years wanted nothing to do with him. Slept on the couch, started an emotional relationship with the neighbor, wanted to “find herself”, etc. and she moved out in Jan. He was very unhappy with their relationship the last two years as well, tried to get her to go to counseling, etc. but she refused. Now I know it takes two to break up a relationship and I know that he retreated to his cave (woodshop) a lot during that time but in talking to his happily married friends who knew both of them for years…she had some major problems and he was her fourth husband. Never did he cheat on her..his values have never allowed for this. They have a 10 year old daughter together who actually is totally OK with them splitting..she is the most well adjusted child I think I’ve ever seen. They get along well when it comes to their child..she is never used as a weapon.

So, they separated in January. We met online in early March and he didn’t lie on his ad..it said he was separated. I know…this was my first big mistake but at the time I wasn’t on these boards and frankly I’ll admit was naïve and didn’t know any better. I figured “well hey they are separated so they will be filing no big deal.” So, yes I know I already messed up here by dating a guy before he’d been divorced a year or one who is just separated. If only I’d started reading these boards sooner!!!!!

We’ve been seeing eachother exclusively since April after dating about six weeks and they still haven’t filed. They both need $1500 to file with their respective lawyers. She has had no money and drinks most of it I think. He was going to file but since she couldn’t he waited. We, over these months, have become more serious and are looking towards a future…though I’ve made it clear that once his divorce is final I want to wait up to a year before we get married..I just feel that time is important. Living together is not an option for us since I have a six year old and his daughter is 10..nor do we spend nights together with children present. He is at the point that he’s tired of waiting and has told her he’s filing…his lawyer said to give her a proposal (which his lawyer helped him write) and maybe they could do this thing uncontested and cheaper. That’s not working..she wants 60% of the equity in the house that he owned 10 years before they got married, etc. So..it looks like they are going to have to file contested for the $1500 retainer each.

She’s starting the “gee, I didn’t think it would end this way for us”, etc. He doesn’t want her back..he has reiterated to her several times that he warned her when she left that if she moved out it was over. She’s dragging her feet now though. She said she’d borrow the money..and has but is really just playing games now as I think she realizes she made a mistake.

So I’m frustrated. I’m frustrated because he is the type that makes excuses and allowances for her..”well, I’ll give her another week, I know she’s trying, etc.” He’s covered for her for years with her drinking, etc. and he fully admits it. He is the avoid confrontation type and doesn’t want it in any way. She’s playing these little games of saying she’ll do uncontested then changes her mind back and forth to delay things and he just won’t put his foot down because that would make waves. We talked last night about it and I voiced my frustration and that I keep having these somewhat guilty feelings that maybe if I were out of the picture they could work things out. He says that he hadn’t been happy for two years for sure and there was tension for several years before that in their relationship..he didn’t want to rock the boat and lose his family so he just retreated and put up with the unhappiness. He’s happier now than ever and would never go back even if I weren’t around. I told him last night that while my heart doesn’t want to stop this relationship..my brain keeps wondering if I should and he can call me after they’ve at least filed..if not when it’s final…if I’m available at that time we could try again. At least then I’d know that I didn’t interfere at all. He doesn’t want me to do that though..he feels we need to continue to grow with eachother and states as I said above..that he would not go back as the love died long before..he just didn’t want to have his daughter in a broken home..even if that meant he was unhappy for her child years.. He’s definetely past that “sow my wild oats and see whats out there stage”…he did that between his first and second marriage so I have no doubts about us in that regard and neither does he.

So I don’t know what I’m asking you all for. I guess advice in general. I know…I shouldn’t have starting dating a separated man..etc..but it’s too late now for that…though maybe my post will help someone who’s on the fence like I was last march!!! My heart doesn’t want to leave. Our values, family beliefs, etc. are so similar. We enjoy the same things and really get along well. We’re best friends and were first before even becoming physical…we were together from March to late June before anything physical even started.

Our kids have met twice…both times we met somewhere and there was no “relationship stuff”. It was all more like two coworkers meeting in the park for the kids to play. We want it that way for now until after the divorce is final and we get closer to a marriage date..then we’ll integrate the kids as family.

Advice?

P.S. His exwife knows about me…she in the past has always told him that she’s glad he’s found someone to make him happy as neither one of them was. She is in no way “mean or psycho”…but it’s obvious she is trying to rethink her decision. Mostly I think because she’s found she needs his check to supplement her small $22,000/year income.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 12:44pm
I think you'd find yourself married to the same man she did.

HE likes the non-involved, chaotically driven turmoil....that allows him to retreat - which is what he wants to do. Itprovides him with excuses and a scapegoat - it is what he needs to have.

He's not going to be different by divorcing her...he's simply going to be divorced.

Until a person restructures their life and defines their own values, priorities, standards and goals and achieves and lives up to and within those things - to create a great single life...what they do is choos a "mate that meets thier needs at the present".

Meaning he's chosen you because on the external level - being with you meets his needs.

On the internal level, his needs are met by the retained level of chaos, confusion, and uncertainty- which has always pervaded his orld and will continue to do it either by his choice in a mate....or by his own actions if his mate won't comply and create chaos and turmoil.

Think of it like this....two people running along side by side - committed to the "side by side approach" - are never going to get further than the less fit person, and they won't faster than the slowest person.

That is why until you're a complete person in your own right - you see something that you want or need that you perceive you can't reach on your own - so you team up to "get what you want and need".

problem is - needs and wants change....and when that happens - you now need a new partner that has the ability too "meet your wants and needs".

When you're a complete entity and know yourself well - what you want and need from a partner is simply companionship based on respect and admiration of who they are as an individual.

This guy issn't there....you're not there...and giving it a year post-divorce isn't guaranteed to make it happen. But THAT IS A SOLID APPROACH.

Because once divorced, he's going to find out that options and advancement exist in areas he never considered within his jurisdiction or right - and he's likely to end the relationship anyway.

You're a rebound. Which is simply - everything I did have before - I prioritize exclusively now. You find someone that embodies that set of priorities - but in reality, the need for what you had on the fundamental and subliminal emotional level still exists - it's just you're not the partner to provide it.

Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com

Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 12:54pm
I agree with Erin...filing or even finalizing the divorce isn't going to change WHO HE IS...a person who has trouble dealing with reality. You'll note that it took HER leaving to get to this point...why on earth would he stay with someone who for two years wanted "nothing to do with him"?

He's a bad bet for a healthy relationship, even if he were to move forward and finalize his divorce.

Sheri

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-24-2004
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 2:22pm
You both make sense..but I'm having a hard time with it in some ways. He keeps saying he likes things simple and usually he does. He doesn't like all this chaos..it makes him quite irritated actually. But I guess on the other hand...he put up with that chaos for a few years and wouldn't end it. I can understand in some respects though..it's hard to just walk away from someone you loved when they are so rock bottom..and with a child involved. He said he kept thinking if he gave her the space she said she wanted she'd work it out and they would rebuild..that's what she kept telling him. Of course then the neighbor guy and her got close emotionally which polluted things further. I don't know..he says that if it went on much longer he knew he'd have to do something but he kept hoping.

<>

Erin..that's pretty much what he says and what I feel also. I've been on my own for two years with my son and actually enjoyed it. I've had a lot of new experiences, hobbies, etc. because I just took time for myself; then after two years decided I was ready to date again. When I met him...we just seemed to appreciate and complement eachother so well. There is just that simple companionship, respect and admiration. Between the two of us we can work out any dispute we've had..and actually I'm more blunt and to the point..I don't back down from what I feel. He's learned to deal with conflict between the two of us, what little there's been which have been very small disagreements. He doesn't run away from me..he'll face me head on calmly and rationally. I guess I don't feel that he sought me out because I would be his next chaos or anything. He's bent over backwards to try and accomodate what she wants with this divorce to get it over with...he hasn't created this chaos with the filing, etc. she did. And he feels pretty stuck with the chaos until she can pay her lawyer. He told his lawyer he'd pay her fees to just to get this done and end the dramatics but his lawyer says if he does he'll set a precedent to keep paying..she'll stir up more dramatics, he'll pay more..etc. so the lawyer says to not offer.

I'm seeing your point in some things...but I don't know..I was a rebound or two right after my divorce..that's why I took two years to just be alone and get comfortable with myself again after a 12 year marriage. This just doesn't feel like a rebound. I don't feel used or that I'm accomodating to his needs..wants. I don't give to get, neither does he..It feels very much healthy..except if this divorce thing was over.

Any other info you can beat in my head would be helpful. You two are the two I really read responses from..so I'm glad you both answered

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 2:38pm
You're seeing this backward....you say that you took a couple of years to re-establish your values and priorities, to get a life and lifestyle going where you were complete and secure without an alliance - so that you would know the type of person you want.

You're saying how vital that was to do - while ignoring the fact he hasn't done it.

It's not that YOU are choosing someone based on needs of the moment...it's that his whole life is one chaotic mess.

Hon, you're talking to an alcohlic in recovery here for 8 years...and the long and short of it is this. Enablers/addicts end up together because they're mirror image opposites. One 'feels' entitled to more than what they've got at someone else's expense based on all they've been thru and they have the "right" to cope and let this person down because of how their life is...and the enabler wants to fix, heal, straighten, and mend - so that by diong that and makig this person what they're not "whole/complete" they'll be a great person for having odne that FOR Them...so that they can ride thier coattails to security. They're not intereested in being a secure and complete person o their own -they're very interested in being with a secure, complete person and everything they have goes into making that person that - despite that person's lack of desire for it - although they want all the benefits and options this person's largess and insecurity offers them.

And they're a great match...until something extremely negative and destructive comes along that one or the other won't tolerate - and then they go "find another one' of the same ilk eventually.

As a rule - the enabler takes a break between "addicts" - and you're that "break" - you're the eye of the storm...you're the calm before the squall.

You're not going to feel used - you're giving to him what you want him to have, and you're getting from himm what you desire and expect in exchange.

it's HIM that is going to lack some fundamental element of choas - once he's finally divorced.

Now..I'm not sure what state you're in...but basically I hear you saying this and I could be wrong - so please edit it if I am.

I hear you saying that he wants to file and won't until she's ready for him to file. That will pressure from you to "get on with our lives" he's filing despite her agreement and NOW she wants to counterfile...so he's waiting to file until she can afford to counterfile!

I've been around the legal system in Texas in FOUR of my own divorces....and while I'm not familiar with laws in your state if you're not in Texas...the one thing that would prevail is that nobody is required to "wait" to file unti the other party can "afford" representation.

Now...his lawyer is right - you can't pay her to act ethically, morally, or in an upstanding manner......and so paying her bills so that she can then turn around and "disagree" with everything - while you're funding it - well - taht is him paying his attorney to say "I want X"...while he pays her attorney to say "I want Y"...and then those two attorneys both at his own expense can battle it out - to his own destruction.

That would be stupid...and having done it in the first divorce because a child was involved - the hindsight is 20/20 and its pointless.

You don't fund someone's attack on you....you fund your own assault.

Basically, without more legal details it's hard to say - but I think you're dealing with a reality you refuse to face.

he didn't like conflict or upset...he just wanted it all to 'go away" - thus his continued to marriage to her, and his previous relationship which if I recall correctly also involved upheaval and chaos. He keeps putting his head in the sand...in these situations - and his butt is repeatedly kicked without warning. And that's because all he prioritizes is "not having conflict in front of his face" - he really doesn't care how often he gets kicked.

So what he wants is "no conflict" with her...and his illogical reasoning is saying "If I pay for her attorney, all will be "fair" because we'll both have representation nd then whatever I get I won't feel guilty about getting."

And the attorney is saying "fair" is a four letter word and odn't use that in my office. But until you're prepared for conflict and conflict resolution - you cannot pursue this action because she opposes what you want - and you're propossing to fund her assault on you.

The man doesn't "do" conflict...you think that you're getting resolution because he speaks with you when you "confront him" he's just backing down and doesn't have ot leave the room...but I guarantee you he's building up resentment for you treating him "like a wayward child".

Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com




iVillage Member
Registered: 09-24-2004
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 3:06pm
Now I am totally getting you. Your last post pegged this exactly. Yes, he doesn't have to wait to file until she has the money..he chose to just to make it easier on her..he doesn't want to make things harder monetarily for her..poor her. And yes, he is an enabler..I've seen that in other things he does. He has always been one to go do whatever anyone wants him to do (neighbors, his grown son, etc.) just to make them feel good which in turn makes him feel good...even at the expense of what he really wanted/needed to do. I've observed that over and over...I just never thought about it until now.

My gosh Erin....it's like this huge lightbulb just went off in my head..it's all falling into place now!

Thank you to you both...I can't tell you how much help just these posts between the two of you have been..especially your second one Erin.
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 3:23pm
People are loathe to go here...but I will since you've got kids involved.

Here's the thing: there's pervasive dynamic and it is the common thread in a person's life. Their situational details are different, the faces are different - but the relationships and situations are basically the same...why?

Because....people do what they do because they want to do it. It meets their needs and it doesn't violate thier standards. Their values, standards and priorities justify their thoughts, feelings, actions, words, ideas, desires, and decisions. Those same values in all situations determine their character, conscience, integrity and honor. What you never get doing situational review - is the pervasive dynamic pattern.

What is so overlooked is 'black and white' - people would rather believe that everything falls into the gray area....but if you didn't have black and white - there could be no gray.

You say he's got a child with an alcoholic...and you've hit on a subject that I'm passionate about so forgive me for the vehemence. But....kids aren't pawns, they're not adults with options and abilities....they're kids.

He's got a child with an alcoholic - an alcoholic he doesn't want to "hurt" because that would "make him feel bad about himself"...so he has this child waht "living" God help me - with her...while he pays support.

Now right and wrong or black and white says "he's evil" for using that child to facilitate him feeling good about himself at the child's expense by living with the mother "because of the title she holds" being the justifying excuse.

Nobody wants to see it this way - they'd prefer misguided...until his "evil" impacts them negatively and that is what alliance does.

If he really were self-aware, self-responsible, self-complete, self-accepting - if he had defined his values and priorities and standards and lived in and up to them at all times - if how he viewed himself wasn't tied to other people's opinion of him - which is directly related to their benefit via him.....would that child be affiliating overmuch, living with - that alcoholic mother just becuase "she's the mother".

Nope.....wouldn't happen.

So waht you're dealing with is a man who lacks self-acceptance and self-responsibility. HE sees himself thru the eyes of others...which is how I know he's building up resentment against you whenever your face isn't shining in adoration at his every breath. He got with you because his relationship had gone from him adoring his every word and thinking him a God, to her falling into drinking because life with im wasn't "what she thought it'd be"......and him staying there as a martyr/saint figure in his own mind - until he couldn't take any more of his own self-negativity..which is only overriden temporarily by someone else's approval, acceptance, adoration, affirmation, appreciation, attention, and applause.


He's not willing to take a stand for wrong or right - as he defines it - in the parental role....and as a result while he's a "nice guy" on the outside - he's lacking the ability to guide, nurture, teach, and discipline a child. He simply now wants the child to adore him and his every word - so that I like me via their attention.

And life with an insecure person is living he$$. Because their perception of self is directly determined by your attention and approval and acceptance of them carte blanche - n matter what they do. Which they're often out giving up or away or negatively impacting you with their doing, giving, sacrificing and offering to others - to like themselves via the approval and attention.

the 7A's are like a drug - and they're the painkiller of "I'm inferior, inadequate, inept, incapable, unworthy" that runs through the self-comparitive head of the insecure 24/7/365. And so one source isn't ever enough.....and yet whoever aligns with him basically is giving them their resources and options and benefits for him to "give away to get attention and approval from someone else,somehow".

Erin

quickblade14@hotmail.com





iVillage Member
Registered: 09-24-2004
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 3:53pm
I won't disagree with you here. I've talked to him about trying to get his daughter..he feels that would "destroy" her mother. I've often said "really, you don't think DD is being destroyed thru the alcohol?"

I've always felt unable to talk on that subject intelligently as I've never dealt with a chemical addiction myself or in a relationship. My ex and I just didn't see eye to eye on important issues you should when you are married...we married younger before we knew ourselves. We get along fine to raise our child and see eye to eye. Heck, we can even take him out to dinner together for his kindergarten graduation and be fine.
iVillage Member
Registered: 09-20-2004
Fri, 09-24-2004 - 8:28pm
I am by no means educated on these topics, so this is just my opinion. I agree with the previous posters in that it could be a possibility. But, I will respond as to how I felt just from reading your posts, before I read the others' opinions. I didn't get the feeling that you were a rebound to him. Yes, I agree that a lot of people have rebound relationships and they usually aren't healthy/successful, etc. However, it doesn't sound like what you have with him is just a rebound. I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem like that to me. As frustrating as it probably is for you to see him continue this relationship (because that is what it is even though it is not a marriage relationship anyway) with his ex-wife, I don't necessarily think he enjoys the chaos. Some men are just dense and some men really don't want to hurt someone else no matter how nasty or mean this other person has been. I definitely agree that he is stupid to let his daughter stay in the home with the alcoholic (hopefully soon to be ex-wife.) That is dumb dumb dumb! That, to me, is the most concerning part of the whole story. What I think you should do is just take a break and re-evaluate your feelings away from him. Tell him you do not feel good about continuing a relationship with him while he is still separated from his ex-wife. You understand that he is going through a tough time but your relationship with him will have to be put on hold until this other issue is resolved. (i.e. the divorce) Tell him you will wait for him, and he can do the same - it sounds like you both want to be with each other. But during that time, you don't have to have any contact with him. It might give you both time to find out what you really want. Do you really want to be with this man? Does he want to be with you enough to divorce his wife? At this point, he has little motivation (although he himself should have enough motivation to just do it) because you are standing by his side allowing him to sit on the fence. Don't disrespect yourself any longer - but I think he deserves the chance to really go through with it. By you taking the break, he can realize if he really wants it and if he doesn't take that chance, he misses out!