oh please help me..i'm so confused
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oh please help me..i'm so confused
| Fri, 03-12-2004 - 11:27am |
Ok here's some history.
I have been married to hubby for 6yrs and together almost 8. We have 3 children all under the age of 5.
The first 6-7yrs of our marriage were horrible..dh has a problem w/ anxiety and he lied to me constantly and made me feel so unloved and unwelcome in my own home. But then the fall before last he got help, he got better, he got managable..we still clash-but it's b/c we're SO different in personality.
Now during that time dh was going through his breakdown and rebuild--i found out i was pregnant..so that of course put a whoel new spin on our marriage repairs.
Baby is now 9mths old and i feel like i'm not in love anymore. I don't even want to kiss him anymore--it's like he's just a great friend.
He's very loving and is great w/ the kids--he really is a great guy. I just don't think I want to be married to him..i think the damage from those 6yrs was too great.
But how..how can i do this to a great guy and to my 3 little boys?
OH please help me!
I have scheduled a talk w/ my therapist..but can't get in till the 25th unless she has a cancellation.
I don't know what to do..i feel like i have nobody i can talk to.
I have been married to hubby for 6yrs and together almost 8. We have 3 children all under the age of 5.
The first 6-7yrs of our marriage were horrible..dh has a problem w/ anxiety and he lied to me constantly and made me feel so unloved and unwelcome in my own home. But then the fall before last he got help, he got better, he got managable..we still clash-but it's b/c we're SO different in personality.
Now during that time dh was going through his breakdown and rebuild--i found out i was pregnant..so that of course put a whoel new spin on our marriage repairs.
Baby is now 9mths old and i feel like i'm not in love anymore. I don't even want to kiss him anymore--it's like he's just a great friend.
He's very loving and is great w/ the kids--he really is a great guy. I just don't think I want to be married to him..i think the damage from those 6yrs was too great.
But how..how can i do this to a great guy and to my 3 little boys?
OH please help me!
I have scheduled a talk w/ my therapist..but can't get in till the 25th unless she has a cancellation.
I don't know what to do..i feel like i have nobody i can talk to.

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Lots of people who are young (and you two were when you got into this relationship) don't know how to communicate. Heck,lots of people in general have no idea how to communicate.
So, you're saying that your values, ethics, principles, standards, priorities, interests, goals, and personal needs as individuals are different. Which is fine, if that's true - and I'll go with your assessment that it is.
If that is the case....realize all those things above are what you'll require yourself to live within, up to, and work towards at all times - theyre just words till you put action to them....words are just "intentions".
Lots of people get caught in an EXTREMELY vicious communicate faux paux. They say "I want to have three kids, I want to live in Phildelphia, I want to be a social worker, I want to have $10k in the bank in 3 years in savings"...which is all great, it is what they want....but they are doing NOTHING of rational, logical, sensible, practical, realistic, and resonsible action to make those things a reality.
Where the communicate vortex comes in...is that you hear what they're saying, and you're accepting is as a true fact...that they do want those things. And so you begin to argue...."well, I don't want to live in Philadephia, and I only want one kid, and I want to be a doctor or a doctor's wife, and I want to have $40k in the bank in 3 years".
And you two begin to argue about 'intentions'....while in practical reality- nothing has been done by either of you in a personal, practical, logical, responsible, realistic, and productive way to make either reality - a reality at all.
and so you get caught up in argument and you feel compelled to defend your stance, or better yet - ensure tha tyou're not caught up in that reality you don't want for you -that they want for themselves. But, neither of you are doing anything about making that reailty a relaity......and so in reality, there is nothing to argue about.
Because generally, arguments do stem over intentions and little else.
If you believe something -you'll stand behind it 100% in all situations, no matter what. You BELIEVE you must...it's your values, principles, ethics, priorities, boundaries, standards that you adhere to at all times.
You'll NEVER steal....you won't take the spare change from the harried cashier who gave you too much, and you won't take it off the boss's desk when he's not looking,a nd you won't lift someone's wallet out of their pocket. That's a value, a belief, a standard that you hold at all times, in all situations.
Now, apply that in your issues...and you'll see that if you truly both believe in an opposite standard or value...there is nothing to argue about. There is no convincing someone what they believe is wrong..and there is no way that you're going to waste your time listening to thier belief which you believe is wrong, either.
If you could get a little more specific it might help about the issues. And yes it is something to realize.....when you let negativity overwhelm you in life with a partner, you're going to have negative emotional associations regarding them. You're not going to want to trust, to want a life, to want to share, to want to have sex...because so much negative has happened and when it has - they've been involved.
If you both decide that you want to work on it....something to really dig deep on accepting and understanding is what forgiveness is. I'll try to give you an example.
I was a drunk in the last marriage. I wasn't when we met, but I sure was by year 4...and that when on till year 6....and in that period we owned our own business, I had a child from a previous marriage, we were never doing anything but living at the poverty level, in constant conflict, with me always trying to get equality due tomy self-perception of inferiority, and the whole relationship was negative. I had gotten with himthinking that he was hard working, solid, stable, mature, and responsible...and he'd turned out to be unpredictable, irresponsible, unsuccessful, and demanding instead. I couldn't handle more failure...this was a 4th marriage 29...so I started coping rather than dealing with situations to get good results, and I drank to excess...and that gave him "reasons, excuses, justifications and rationalizations" for everything that was negative in our lives.
When I sobered up - we looked at one another and had terribly negative "associations" with this person being around us, in our lives, in our bed, in our head. Actually, he didn't have nearly as many negative associations about me as I had about him. I'd been accruing and developing the associations during the first four years of our marriage - and they had literally "justified my drinking" by my then entitled and dysfunctional way of reasoning. He was only angry, frustrated, resentful and anxiety ridden about my behavior for two years during the worst of the drinking.
So....we really did have to try...and you can't just "forgive and forget". And we had some very qualified and excellent assistance in helping us restructure. Because I was very committed to two more years together to try to restructure the relationship. I thought I owed him that much, I owed my child that opportunity, I owed our business that responsibility - to be the "best me" I could be by my values, standards, priorities and boundaries in every day, every way, in every aspect. I required ME to live up to that - I didn't unrealistically expect anybody else to!
So, I did that. I worked 14-16 hours a day, 6 days a week, shoveling asphalt and driving equipment and building roads - that was our business - construction. He didn't work that long or hard....and I didn't expect him to. I expected me to - and I did. That resulted in us having more financial options - and I paid our bills. While he screamed that I was spending his money inapproriately -he didn't believe in paying bills before funding fun. We didn't share that prioritization scale.
Basically, I said I would stay for two years to try to get an equality based business relationship, for us to begin to have some semblance of a sex life, and for him and the child to come to terms - they were in an emotionally abusive cycle if ever there was one. And I stayed.....I lived up to my standards and expectations every day, in every way - and I was the "best me" I could be.
That took the fear away of "me being in charge of my life" - although our business succeeded while I was there, under his management it eventually failed because I didn't provide the manual labor once I left. The child was getting out of rehab when we split, and the cild went back to using drugs....I really expected that, I didn't like it - and I didn't enable him once he was out and using - I kicked him out.....that was a very hard thing to do...but I believed I was doing the right thing.
So, my point is that "forgive and forget" doesn't work. And here's a really excellent issue to utilize as an example. His claim in my early sobriet was that my lack of consistency in performance atwork, at home....I was always late to everything (still am again, read on) had made him unable to concentrate, unable to be successful in business, unable to "bond" with me. He had trust issues as a result of my perpetual lateness, and my lateness had been due to drinking or being hung over, etc. etc. etc. So, we had a deal....for him to regain his trust in me - I was never to be late for anything for one year.
Keep in mind, I worked for him, we lived together, and we had no "life" except in shared vested interests or issues. It sounded reasonable to me...you do have to regain trust by showing that your values have changed.
People do waht they do becuase they want to do it. Their values, priorities and standards justify and entitle their actions, feelings, thoughts, decisions, words, ideas, and desires. Those same values determine their character, conscience, integrity and honor in every regard and venue.
That is why so many people make behavioral changes, and they're temporary. Their vlaues justify their actions...and if you don't change your values - your behavioral change is based on situation or situational benefit.
So, for one year, I was never late. I'd report in like a 6th grader - Im going to the grocery store and I'll be home in one hour. If in 50 minutes I was standing in the check out line, becuase I had no cell phone, I'd go and ask the manager to hold the cart, go home (small town - no problem doing it) and tell him I had to go back. After 6 months, i started using the payphone to say I'd be late and by how much, but initially his "fears and anxieties and insecurities" were realistically grounded in my previous inconsistent behavior and my physical presence was the only way to assure him I was not out drinking again. I did that for one year......very literally, he knew every move I made.
At the conclusion of the year, I KNEW by my standards I had exceeded my expectations. I wasn't "doing waht he said" - I was doing what I believed was right to do. I didn't drink because I no longer consisdered that an appropriate way to deal with life. I've never really wanted to drink since the day I put it down in 10/96. I'd worked hard, been honest, communicated well, produced money in high numbers, I'd parented rather than "dealt with the kid", and I'd become a much superior person than I was...I was also more emotionallybalanced as a result of knowing what I believed in adn what I would do - vs. allowing situations to determine what I wanted or would do or get.
At the end of the year, this requirement to be in his physical presence in order to assure my sobriety was now "interferring with progress" in terms of professional and personal productivity. We couldn't develop an equality based relationship in any aspect with me reporting to him....him believing the only reason I was being good was his requirement, and me beginning to resent this lack of acceptance on his part that I was a more mature, resonsible, stable, and secure person in general. At the end ofthe year, the counselor said "okay, it seems like that your anxieties and fears should be quelled (to him). She's not only been on time, she's exceeded your request. She's so obviously not the person who came in here a year ago it's unbelievable even to me, and I've been what she was and I've never seen this sort of commitment to recovery -not just commitment to penance. So, let's drop this requirement ot be on time as a demand and a subjective issue in the relationship."
The response was telling...."No, we can't do that. If she just continues to do what I say and how I say, then I'll be able to START (notice, he had not yet even considered starting) being more productive at work. Now I know that she's going to do it and I can start to trust her a little bit and that will free me up to start making more money."
The counselor just rolled on the floor in laugher....."yeah right, you don't want to work at this marriage or anything else, and you never have. You just want someone to control and blame so that your failures aren't your fault. And she's proved it by becoming more complete as a person and requiring herself to live up to a standard you didn't set, and now you don't control, and you're upset despite the fact it's a higher standard that you've ever asked her to meet."
And where this started, the issue of being on time....was my asking his forgiveness. The day I quit drinking I realized that "coping with life was wrong at the expense of other people". I didn't think drinking was wrong - I still don't. If people can drink and it doesn't interfere with their lives - that's great. I'm just not one of those people.
So, I went and asked his forgiveness....being a preacher's daughter (go figure) I know alot about forgiveness from my father - both in the pulpit and in daily life. And forgiveness is a two way street.
First, it's got to be sought. Forgiveness isn't "I'm sorry I did "X"...it's "I was wrong to do "X" and the result that it has caused TO YOU is inexcusable for me to have allowed my actions to permit. I was wrong to do waht I did, my goal here is to restore the sanity adn balance to your world, not restore my position in yoru world". And then, you live by the values that you've now adopted, and over time this person will or will not see that youo're a changed person in every situation and circumstance, and they will or will not forgive you based on that awareness or lack thereof. If you ask forgiveness of people who like to beat you up for your failures and never let you forget them because it keeps you in subjection and submission - you're never going to "get forgiveness" just more beating. But, you can stll ask for that forgiveness..and keep readin gbecause forgiveness is multifaceted.
If the person seeking your forgiveness proves the genuine values and standards changes with thier behavior in every way and you choose to forgive them for the damage to your life....realize what you just did is "erase the black mark" in your little book against them. You're being an adult and saying "I realize now that you're not the person I was dealing with back then. That I can now trust you never to repeat not just the action, but the self-serving agenda, taht you did and held back then. I realize that in affiliation with you and you regaining my "stated trust" with my saying I forgive you....that it is up to me to accept, deal with and restructure my emotional associations and emotional state regarding you and what you do and how you impactmy life. Because forgiveness truly means that you're not walking around with a big stick waiting for them to look like they might step out of line so you can whack them because they stepped out of line bfore and you "forgave" them...but you refused to deal with giving forgiveness in your heart, and restructuring your emotional pattern.
Forgiveness also does not require or even involve "reinvolvement". IT is quite possible for someone with a values change who's a totally new person to seek your forgiveness - and you being aware of that values change and now in respect and admiration of them, do give the forgiveness. But, you realize that you do not wish for your own reasons to affiliate on anything but a superficial, external level, if at all - and that is all you're willing to do.
Forgiveness is not restoration of position on either side -either sought or given...it is simply the request and acknowledgement that both parties now have learned a great deal from this situation, and have restructured thier lives, values, and priorities as a result.
So, if you haven't gone out, gotten ajob, started living up to your financial obligations in terms of being able to meet those commitments....you're not really ready to get out there on your own. You're not necessarily really wanting to, either. YOu're wanting out of the "feelings" that you've got...but you like the situation in many regards that you're in.
Believe me, I've been both of you. And when you realize that what you are is causing your grief - you'll change what you are. That change will immediately inspire and require fundamental changes in your situation - not just "leaving" with "intentions" as if they're goals.
Really, fi I can help, let me know.
http://www.hullspeed.net/journal/feature_story_v2_i3.html
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
2 nights ago i cheated..i kissed someone else. Now I believe cheating is hte WRONG thing to do..it is so horrible and disrespectful..and yet this is the 3rd time i've done it..i'm not sure he'd take me back this time..and i don't blame him.
When we talk tonite i'm not sure i should bring it up..or make sure it's out there so he knows EVERYTHING.
Just for a moment i let go of my everything..and i caved into those sweet nothings some guy was telling me. Then quickly snapped out of it and realized how wrong i was.
I'm a horrible person aren't i? God i feel so bad..not for what i did--but for how it'll affect my husband.
Guess what - whatever his past behaviors were that you can't stand, that have caused you such grief and mistrust - he was using the VERY SAME REASONING!
So, you're now flipping this around...you want to be aggressive and offensive - because you're afraid that he'll kick you out, he'll keep the kids, he's got the job, the now-positive value system and reputation - and you'd be left out in the cold with nowhere to go but home to your folks and admit that you've "kissed around" and you don't want to hear someone say precisely what I'm going to say.
You have a problem with yourself and how you view yourself. YOu have an 'identity crisis" - in other words when you're not in a role - you're a nobody by your standards.
I completely understand whre you'r ecoming from. YOu got with this guy at 16, you were in a crisis - you needed security, identity, protection, providership -and he offerd it. You thouht "aisle/altar/hymn" was "I'll alter him". At the time you only knew what you needed and he was offering salvation....at 16 you didn't realize you needed to evaluate if the type and definition and standard of salvation he was offering would meet yourneeds at that time and in the future.
You just thought - I need to feel good, I need to be safe, I want to be an "adult" - I'll take him. And you did...and he was a kid himself, and he wasn't sure what he wanted out of life or what he stood for or how he was going to get what he wanted and needed...and in doing that he's gone all over the planet - in ways you have yet to disclose in any limited fashion - about the choas, turmoil, unrest, insecurity, doubt, fear, and anxiety that his actions have caused you.
He wasn't doing any of that becuase of, to spite, in spite of, or despite you - he was doing it becuase he wasn't sure who he was, what he wanted, what he stood for or how he was going to get thru life...he's now "found his path".
Guess what, the dilemma you're facing is precisely the delimma every "enabler" faces with an "addict truly in recovery". The person who was the screw up, the miscreant, the vagrant, the failure, the slob, the moron...is now living by values, up to expectations, setting goals and achieving them. YOu're not sure what to do without having himi to blame and fault for your problems, and your feelings - because at 16 you fell into the trap of thinking "fault/blame = solution" and also "fault/blame = someone else is a solution".
So while it sounds like he's holding a job, payin the bills, parenting the kids -you're feeling inadequate, insecure, inferior, and unworthy - and you're blaming him for it. YOu "hear" it in his words, yoou "see" it in his eyes....no, you don't. Well, you might - but you just don't know that quite yet for sure.
Here's a fact...infatuation which is at the beginning of every relationship is "I love the way your desire for me makes me feel about myself. Your desire for me makes me feel so great, so worthy, so positive, I see myself thru your eyes and I am complete, I am whole, I am beautiful, I cannot get enough of you." That's infatuation - it's a "feeing" - not a fact, goal, or call to action.
But quite often it is used precisely as a fact, goal, or call to action - especially in situations of extreme unrest, peril, or dysfunctionality. And what happens is that you continue to "see yourself reflected in their eyes" - you never outgrow infatuation nad allow it to become admiration, respect, trust, and acceptance of them as a person based on shared values...you simply jump into the 'salvation of infatuation" - because it eliminates temporarily your fears, doubts, self-negativity, and negative self-image -you're viewing yourself thru their eyes.
Over time, their desire for you becomes default, it doesn'tinspire in you those tremendous feelings of "im so great, so worthy, so desirable, so perfect".....and yet because infatuation never was allowed to fade and true love, admiration, respect, and acceptance take its place based on shared values, priorities, standards, and goals...what you have is a "feelings generated and based" dynamic. it never became grounded in reality based facts. How you feel about yourself when you're with them determines how you "feel about them" and how you feel determines what you do and whether you stay, and whether you want to stay...and youll stay if you don't feel like it, if you've created obligations nad responsiblities you can't meet but don't want to leave (namely kids).
So now, reflected in his eyes (because eyes act as a mirror) what you see instead of how his desire once made you feel - is how you feel about yourself without his "positive input" - and you hate that feeling, that person - and you transfer that loathing to him because just as once looking into his eyes, seeing yourself reflected back so positively mae you feel great....now looking into his eyes and seeing yourself reflected so negatively makes you feel sick....and both of those feelings and reflections - you're attributing to him. Untrue....feelings are yours to own, they're a result of your perception of situations, self and life in general - and his desire inspired positive feeings in you - based on your thought processes, emotional associations, and life expectations and self-image and awareness.
At one time in my life there was something I was so dedicated in pursuing it was unreal. I wanted to finish a particular race, it was imperative to my psyche and well-being that I do it. In every way, realistically and dysfnctionally, I had associations with "finishing this race" and what it would bring to me as a person - not in terms of money or acclaim - but in terms of how I felt about myself, mainly via the applause of others.
I pursued that event with diligence and dedication, in the pursuit I found that what I wanted to get was not available to me atthe finish line - it was available to me only in between the start and finish lines and that was self-respect, self-esteem, self-awareness, and self-acceptance. I found that out in dealing with that 4th ex husband who said something profound....and it was meant to demoralize me really.
Standing in a position of fear and terror in a situation I did not perceive I could handle if I wanted to live.....I again asked for his "instruction". I hated him, I reviled and loathed him...in reality, I hated the fact I could not handle this on my own and his assistance was imperative to survive as I saw it at the time. HE refused to assist, instead of yelling or demeaning in an obvious way he made a statement. 'If you cannot do this, you cannot do this race solo."
Waht I heard was NOT what he said, what I heard was my own opinion of myself in his words which was "you CANNOT do this, you'll NEVER go solo, you are too stupid and inferior so stop trying". I reacted to what I had heard...not what he said. That reaction I was contemplating and beginning to take, in that position of danger, I almost ended my life.
Just prior to that fatal step, where he was doing nothing to stop me in any way, I got a miracle. I'd never had this experience but I was only 6 months into sobriety and I'd heard about it - an "epiphany". Prior to taking that fatal step I "reheard" what he said....but without my own inflection and opinion inserted in it. I heard precisely and exactly what he said which was a fact and nothing else "if you cannot do this, you cannot do this race solo."
I stopped, I looked around, he was right, if I could not learn to do this I would never be solo and I had to ask myself a most unexpected question...did I WANT to be solo in this race? The answer was immediate - yes, I did. I then did something I'd never done....I looked to the physical location in this situation I was trying to reach. Never before in my life, in any aspect, had I EVER thought of looking at where I was heading in terms of forming a plan and getting there. I looked at that spot and said "I want to be solo, and I have to get thre to learn to do this." And without his assistance or instruction, with a rush of anger, resentment, fear, anxiety, doubt, frustration, and remorse literally leaving me in a wave....I made the plan, enacted the plan, and got where I wanted to get.
As we paddled away in solo boats I tried to explain to him the experience and what it meant to "us'...he totally dismissed it, which was fine. Because his approval and acceptance of it - wasn't necessary to make it real, important or of value to me.
Your problem all your life is that you've had between you and "I'm so great" a middle man. And whoever approves of, accepts, admires, applauds, appreciates, or affirms you - you're basking in the glow of it and going "ah, finally, I feel like I'm somebody". That extremely positive reaction to another person's approval and acceptance means you have no self-esteem. It means that you odn't like, love, accept, admire, appreciate, respect, or understand yourself at the core, you don't approve of your actions (they're all taken to please or placate others, or get a certain benefit or feeling via another's involvement), you are terrified of you being in charge of your life.
Here's what I suspect.....what I hated most about that 4th ex was the "power" he had over how I regarded myself. I got into the marriage for the love, acceptance, approval, affirmation, and admiration I'd never had for myself, and that nobody else had for me as a result of the way I'd emotionally lived my life. when I couldn't get his approval and acceptance of my every action and word.....I resented, feared, and was angry at him, and life, and how unfair it all was....and I couldn't handle another marriage of that becuase I'd been married 4 times by 27...and nobody had ever loved me enough, or very long, or at all.
The day I stepped up to the plate of self-responsibility and said I'll be responsible for how I view and receive and accept myself - thanks so much. I'll live up to stanards, values, priorities and boundaries that I personally define as required. I'll start working on goal achievement - rather than "gettting a feeling" - his power over my perception fo self stopped cold.
In that one second, in that one terrifying situation......there was a brief span of minutes where our marriage had a chance at survival. In that time when I was telling him that I was wrong to hold him accountable for my feelings, that I was so wrong for having treated him disrespectfully due to dysfunctional resentment - if he'd have responded in any positive way - we might still be togehter. But, he dismissed it - because he did want control over my perception of self, his identity was grounded in my failure.
So, whether you go or stay - you're going to have to stop looking at yourself through the eyes and words of others and "feeling" about yourself minute to minute based on how they regard you. IF you keep doing that - it means that you'll be scraping, posturing, posing, pleasing, placating, and benefitting everybody you meet to get their approval and acceptance - while they approve and accept of you based on their benefit via you - and the minute you're not improving their lives 100% - they'll be out of there.
The guy that is kissing you while you're still married.....here's some reality bsed facts to review. First, he knows that whether he gets kissed or laid - he has no obligation to you, your kids, your future. No matter what he says to you in the heat of th emoment, you're a married woman, who cannot be "hsi" in terms of obligation, resonsiblity and commitment. It's easy to claim "if things weren't as they are, we'd be together, but instead let's just get it on till we can be together"...but the reality is peoplethat are foolling around with unavailable people - are "unavailable" themselves. they don't want relationships of obligation and commitment and emotional bond....they want instant gratification without obligation and having an affair or being with someone who doesn't want a relationship is a way to guarantee that they get what they want - while avoiding precisely what they don't want - obligation, commitment, emotional investment.
You have a choice.....if you have a value system that says "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" you'll come clean about this, accept the consequences, take the results and go forward in whatever direction that is appropriate based on your goals and the options at hand. If you'd like to be lied to, deceived - go right ahead andd say nothing of your dalliance, let it come out at some poitn because it will - adn let whatever you've built in terms of trust and acceptance be shattered beyond repair.
You've got real problems, hon. Because you are so terrified of you, you despise you so much that you'll run in any and every direction in order to avoid "you". No matter where you go, there you are. That phrase was pivotal to my sobriety because I was it in a drunken state, in an environment I so sought to be accepted in. And I mused slightly drunk that the reality of the statement was my problem in life - no matter whre I went there I was, and I was miserable all the time and couldn't get away from it. I proceeded to have another drink.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
I'm not being fair to anyone am i? And leaving is just an easy out, an easy way to not face the problems..but it's out of my hands now. Of course i have to tell him about the kiss..b/c while i knew it was a one tiem thing and would mean nothing, i KNEW i meant nothing to that guy--just another pair of legs. I still did it. And I own that and i accept that..it was my doing..nobody nor any alcohol forced me to..i did it. And i know that when i tell dh it will be out of my hands..he will want to work it out, or he will walk out.
Is there any hope of me ever being happy? I guess that hope belongs to me and my actions..what i do about it.
You can commit suicide/become a hermit - that way your dysfunctional reasoning, associations, patterns, and actions do not impact anybody else, aren't taught to anybody else, and don't limit anybody else's potential and options and future.
You can self-actualize...which means you're going to stand in a living hell that is self-inflicted but well worth every second for quite some period of time while you become who someone you admire, respect, accept, and understand...so that you can get waht you want and need out of life by knowing what that is.
You might try reading this entire thread - it's got lots of stuff you could really use to understand, accept, and implement in your life.
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-rlcouplescou&msg=7748.43
http://messageboards.ivillage.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=iv-rlcouplescou&msg=7748.41
If I can help, let me know.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
I need to get in w/ my therapist ASAP..and i need to self-actualize. I don't even know how to begin doing that. I mean i know what i'd be doing if i had no kids or hubby..i know what i would be living like and working..but i can't see who i would be dating, what i would be looking for, what would satisfy me. I guess that's what needs done.
And is it even right for him to stay w/ me while i do that? B/c don't i need the freedom to go and find out? to experiment w/ happiness/ unhappiness?
I know i'm dragging this thread out really long and probably talking in circles and frustrating you..but you are helping me ALOT.
First, self-esteem is how you regard yourself when nobody else is around, or when everybody is around and agrees with you or disagrees 100%. So, which comes first - self-esteem or value-oriented actions? It's not as hard as you think to know what to do. IT's just going to be difficult as living he$$ to do in actuality.
First, you're saying it was wrong to cheat. So if you're saying it was wrong...that means your values have changed. That you're not trying to reinstitute your position in his life by saying "I'm sorry, let me back in" - you're saying that the security of his world that you shattered with your actions is inexcusable and you want to restore the balance to his world -a nd however HE says that can happen, that is how you'll proceed. Or, are you really saying that you wouldn't have done it if you didn't feel lik eyou did, which is partially his fault for all the bad first years of hte marriage so he should just forget aobut this because it won't happen again. Which is it?
Everybody thinks if they just "start over" - they'll do different. Wrong. You're doing waht you're ding becuase your values justify it, your reasoning inspires it, your goals require it.....so no matter where you go, there you are - you're the common denominator in your life and if you review a pattern what do you find? Do you find that primarily you're successful because you have goals and you deal with situations factually to reach your goals via intelligent and responsible actions? Or do you find thatwhatever feels good, you do it, and then whatever the results are - you ignore, deny, hide, or try to justify "how this happened?
What you're out to eliminate is the "thinking pattern" that you've got....and nothing you do - except suicide - is going to less the reality of what is coming in the next sentence. Feelings are not facts, goals, or calls to action, they're a result of situations. Situations are changed with actions, decisions and words. So situations are constantly changing in ways beyond your control, and your feelings will also be in flux and play in yoru life as a result. But...feelings are not a "call to action" - so it is very possible to go thru life regretting something that you've done...while still living with it, accepting it factually, dealing with the results of it - and succeeding in life in general.
But that requires you to learn to detach from the emotions and stop thinking that you can't be rational, sane, mature, responsible, intelligent, or goal oriented unless you "feel good". To retrain your thinking pattern to a goal oriented, factually asssessing, emotioally accepting and stable one - you're going to very much be required to stand in emotional hell while you "do what feels so wrong because it makes you feel so bad or worse...but factually speaking based on your goals it is what is required for you to do."
About this "who would i be without him and the kids" how would i be living who would i be dating....oh, how telling that is. First, a relationship isn't a goal. And a relationship doesn't make you someone or something you're not.
Here's the type of guy that would date you right now...if you walked off from the responsiblity of your marriage and kids, and starting living an independent, single, 24-year old hottie life. Guys that want sex would date you -and you'd think their desire for sex meant they "liked you as a person" - and you'd emotionally attach based on sex and you'd get horribly hurt when they dated someone else, or didn't call back. Guy that want you to "serve them" - because your entire identity is caught up in being of service and pleasing someone - so anybody that paid you any attention for sexual gratification would be treated like a king to the best of yoru ability - to repay them for making you feel so good based on them being willing to hang around you for benefits. The second that you had a need, or a situation arose that required something of them - they'd leave. They wouldn't have gotten with you to give you anything but 7" of you know what.....and that you have "sexual needs" confused with emotional needs and life requirements -that's your problem, not theirs.
You'd end up so jaded about men you'd likely find yoursel fin teh catch 22 I did at 33...whe I sobered up. People don't run thru 4 marriages, and destroy a child in the process, and squander an inheritance, and become a public drunken fool believing that they're "worth or worthy of anything of merit". They do that becuase they think without an entity to serve and give to they're useless and inferior. And taht attracts people who won't go out and get for themselves what they want to have....because why should they go out and work when you're giving it away and they get the no-obligation benefit of your efforts!
When i sobered up, I looked around and realized I was 33, living in the same small town for 14 years, never had a friend, an interest, no contacts, I had made a public drunken fool of myself, I'd "served" that 4th ex so long and so publicly I was literally "avoided" in every social and public way. Nobody knew what to make of me - I was such a dysfunctional and jagged wreck of a human being. I worked like a man in a man's profession, I wanted to be a girl and didn't kow how except to be the damsel in distress and I was good at creating distress and chaos - but nobody wants a girl covered in asphalt -nobody believes she needs to be 'rescued', and that isn't the sort of girl that a man feels good about having think he's "wonderful".
This is precisely the catch 22 you're headed for. I married at 18 to a guy I didn't want to marry.....I married him becuase he threated me. When I left home in rebellion at 17, I did want to marry and my parents wouldn't consent. By the time I didn't need their consent he'd beaten me, and I figured out that living with a homicidal, convicted felon drug dealer and user was no walk in the park. But, he wanted me to marry him and have a kid so that he'd be linked to me forever he thought I had "money" - compared to him I did, at least my parents did. I had the baby - I didn't want a baby,I hadn't ever lived...I'd gone from a sheltered existence as a fat teenager - to being a fat wife to a guy that I was terrified of. I didn't want to be a parent.
But, and this is the ONLY thing I did for the next 17 years that i am proud of to any degree, when I left under the cloak of night, with the help of SWAT teams and law enforcement, putting my entire family in jeopardy for years and destroying their financial security in order to relocate and remain safe...I took the kid with me. I sure iddn't want to....but, I did it. I did it because my parents weren't going to get me out of thre unless I did.
I regret not wanting to do the right thing...but I do not regret one second of having done it. I do regret having destroyed the child in terms of being a dsyfunctional parent, because once he was with me and with them.....he was now subjected without mercy to my dysfunctionality...and the offset dysfunctionality of my mother.
But, at 20, living in a college town, on the run, terrified, with a baby I didn't want, overweight and insecure, with no clue how ot live life or how this happened...I was sure again the answer was "a man". I needed providership, security, assistance in raising ths child....I sought someone who could provide all of my family with security, and provide me with an "independent' life. Meaning, I didn't live at home with my parents. I've held a job, at least one, since I was 16 and have not ever not worked. I married a cop, 20 years my senior, a really nice man - he didn't have much int erms of financial security - but his motto in life was "to protect and serve" and there wasn't a person more in need of that than me, my child, my family. We were together 5 years.
At 24, finally bulemically thin, the ex dead in a drug deal, the child no longer an infant and needing full attention, having a houose and car my parents financed, and having a good job that once the lifestyle was there I could maintain - I imperiously told the cop "get out, we have nothing in common and I'm not happy about being with you." I felt entitled to the youthful decadence I was sure I was justified in wanting and i went out and pursued it. (Exactly what was that 17 year old rebellion with a murderous drug dealer if not "youthful decadence"? - I just refused to accept that my choices and decisions and actions has altered my options in life). I wanted someone attractive, my own age, someone fun and exciting - I found him. He just never worked, is all. I had it all and offered it to him...and he brought in his debts, his friends, his needs, his problems....and i the end - everything I had I lost. You'd think I'd have learned, but I didn't.
We lived togehter two years, me antsy for a proposal and none forthcoming, I went to his mother who begged me for my own sake to not pursue my next plan of attack. I went to his father, who was realistically afraid that this 30 year old, unemployed, no ambition loser would come back home to live at their expense agreed to assist me. I wnated to be married and I was going to get it. His father issued an ultimatum....the assistance and vehicle provided each month to him while living with me would be cut off if he didn't marry me. so, reluctantly he did. And immediately I got the picture - "aisle/altar/hymn" is not "I'll alter him". He stll didn't work, pay bills, love the cild or me.....he was no more responsible or mature post "I do" than before it. Within a month we were at each other's throats screaming this was the biggest mistake of our lives...and within a year I was hustling and finagling to "coerce" a divorce out of him (he enjoyed being difficult and this was one time I wished he'd have succeeded 100%!) so that I could "marry #4". Who didnt' know I was still married, and we'd been dating a few months.
Dating....mmm, what does that look like when you're codependent. It means someone pays you a compliment and you fall for them 100% based on your needs and your projected assumption of what they could offer you in terms of a lifestyle, or positive self-image in your own mind. They'll buy you dinner, you'll spread your legs. The second you have sex, you're "bonded" and you're imediately giving and sacrificing as if you're they're wife and your life is intertwined with theirs. theyll take everything you've got - your money, your effort, your abilities, your time, your energy, your offerings in every way - to benefit them...but the life that they lead is allthat you're ever ging to get. Your identity is in being an adjunct, in being "of service"...and so youre nver equal to them.
Eventually, whether you're treated well as I was in the 2nd marriage...or you're treated as a lowly slave as I was in the 4th - you'll leave. You can't stand more failure, more inequality - you'll seek some positive reinforcement and you'll find it. Take note, I was never "not married" in 17 years, to four men - none of whom wanted sex once married, and one one of which worked and actually lived by standards and values - and that was the one 20 years my senior and actually gave me something in the relationship I didn't know how to accept - I wanted him to pant and drool and beg for my sexual favors - I thought that was love. He offered me respect and admiration based on the facade he thought was my "value oriented self-requirement" -and I didn't want respect and admiration based on doing the right thing...I wanted to be wined, dined, romanced, and screwed.
So, you can stop right now thinking, if you're serious about wanting to pursue self-actualization......that you're going to date anybody, have sex, or being involved in anything but platonic or professional levels with a man for several yeras. You've got to know who you are, what you want, what you stand for and how to meet your own needs in life in the fundamental ways - before you're prepared and qualified to assess whether a man is someone who lives by values and has character and standards.
There is no requiremen to leave your situation or location in order to self-actualize. In fact, you've got to assess if leaving is something that you're going to be proud of doing, accept the consequences of without knowing what they are right now...just take resonsibility for handling those consequences as they arise throughout your life.
When I did self-actualize, I was sober for two years in the last marriage. I lived up to my standards, obligations and requirements, I lived by my values, priorities and boundaries at all times. It was two years of adversity as a whole, it was the foundation on which the successful life i have is now built. in those situations and circumstances I learned that situations did not determine my actions, and ost importantly feelings did not "call me to action" and were not "treated as goals".
After I left, I continued to do what i had done with him in a situation of adversity, poverty, and inequality - from a position of "independence". I worked, paid my bills, lived within my means, parented the child - kicked him out when he returned to drug use...and i have lived with the awful, horrible, agonizing regrets of having raised him as I did that inspired his thinking and life now...while realizing I do not control what he does and his life is his responsibility. How that's for "balance", to get thre takes great self-awareness, acceptance and responsibility.
When the child was kicked out, I continued to live within my means, pay my bills, take the hour of "me time" as mandated by my AA sponsor..and I was able to increase that hour to 2-3 hours a day. Hours I became responsible for finding solutions and options - not thinking about my problems. Hours I became so aware of how I got how I was - by confronting the patterns in a life-threatening at the time environment - the river in a solo boat.
I got sober saying I wanted "no regrets" from that time forward - I've held to that goal. I said I wanted to become consistent and congruent - I have certainly done that. In the last three years- my life has had many ironic moments. I recall the entitled 20 and 24 and 27 and 32 year old with much amusement.....remember how I was so sure I'd never have, never do, never become, never achieve.....I recalled those moments representing the USA in world level competition - a drunk in recovery at 40 years old. People have asked how long I knew that was is today would be...and I've said I've never known. And that is accurate.
when you were 16...without children.....even in the state of your lfie at that time - you had not created obligations, requirements and situations that encumbered your life, your energy, that limited your opportunities and options. Your life - had it been serene - was a straight path to success by your own definition via your own efforts. Even in a chaotic life as a teenager and young adult is not riddled with responsiblity and obligatio - and so you could have self-actualized by leaving home, continuing your education, and pursuing self-awareness without -getting married, creating children responsiblity, debt, obligation, and eliminating options and opportunities.
But, you didn't...because you didn't pursue life in that straight forward path, and you detoured into the woods where you now find yourself huddled in fear, naked, cold, hungry, and damp. You're wanting the security of warmth, food, clothing,a nd shelter...and anything will do.
The best analogy for self-actualization I have is this...where you find yourself right now, you'll earn your own trust, acceptance, respect, and admiration by "dealing with"....not staying there huddled in fear and lashing out in anger...but dealing with it responsibly and intelligently while terrified. Separate your feelings from the facts, and form a goal and get there. As you do this, you'll eventually find that you feel differently, because you perceive yourself and life differently, and the forest will be a little less dense, a little more warm, friendly and inviting...and you work thru by acceptance the situations and circumstances that you've created in your life, deailng with them per your values and standards and requirements whether that scares you or delights you or angers you......at osme point you'll reach the intersection where there are options and opportunities for you in life once again to pursue what "you" want - rather than spending time always "dealing with what you've created".
It will be in the dealing with what you've created - that you'll learn who you are, what you stand for, what you need and want, how capable, able, worthy, and resonsible and intelligent you are as an individual. At that point - the options before you wil be reviewed factually based on this self-awareness and you'll pursue the options that you responsibly believe will allow YOU to fulfill your needs, wants, desires, and destiny.
which puts you in a great quandary, I know. Because you'd lik to know right now what to do - stay or go. And whichever one it is - how're you supposed to act and feel. Taht's "codependent thinking"...how should I act and feel? It's self-actualized reasoning to know that your life is not an act, and what you do determines what you get and that determines how you feel.
I have always thought of myself since this change as someone who reversed rolees...I can with great clarity recall your position, I truly empathize with it. But the position of empowerment, awareness, authrity, responsibility, and completion that i stand at now....I will not "empathize" with you to any degree that even for one second allows you to get comfortable once again with wehre you are on an emotional level.
My best advice for today would be quite simple...and realize that every day you're simplly going to expand on this approach. Today - treat him as you believe he deserves based on what he's done in this moment, not how you feel about him in general. Today, treat yourself as if you believe that you're intelligent, responsible, and worthy - while not denying that you do not consider yourself worthy of this treatment at all. Today - in every moment, assess your resonsiblities and obligations against your self-image...and shirking or ignoring them is not going to have you "feeling good" about yourself.
One way I always thought of it, given I was so excessively emotional and emotionally driven...was that i was learn to prioritize my feelings in a new way. Rather than act on the feelings of the moment to create destruction...I was acting on the facts of the moment, workig towards a goal, so taht when I reached it the feelings that I had were so great and wonderful - I didn't have to run away from them.
If I can help, let me know.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
I've experienced some of what's "out there" and it's not all it's cracked-up to be. EVERYTHING gets boring if you do it enough, including meeting interesting people. There's a phenomenon called habituation that dictates that we get accustomed to, can take for granted WHATEVER we see regularly. Change is the usual if there's ALWAYS change, and IT gets old. Abraham Maslow said that peak moments cannot last. Our hormones, physiologies, etc., just AREN'T designed for constant excitement. Relaxation, etc., is also a valid pursuit.
Some of what I'm hearing is that you may feel you could have done better with your life. Look at it this way, you could have done A LOT worse, also. If you can help just ONE person, you've done a lot. You don't have to measure yourself according to what you think others might be thinking. There are plenty more who are envious of you probably, from what you describe.
When it comes to sex, I always think of it this way, "To the one who is full, even honey is loathsome. But to the one who is famished, every bitter thing is sweet." If you try to find fulfillment through sexual highs, you'll just wear-out your sex organs, take-away valuable energy from your children and expose yourself to disease (extra-marital). Sex is a good thing, but like all things, enough is enough. Maybe you've just had enough for awhile. Overstimulation will just wear-out one's nervous system.
If you leave your husband, you're probably going to experience A LOT of stress, more than you bargained on. You're probably going to meet a lot of guys who don't care about you. You'll probably feel a lot of insecurity. Eventually, your children are probably going to look for someone to blame, and it will probably be you. They'll also likely "act-out" in ways intended to make your life miserable. When they get older, they'll probably blame YOU for most of their problems. Children have STRONG feelings about injustices, even if they lose them later in life. It's likely you'll look back on your life and wonder what was it all for. Stress and moral violations will take their toll on your life and body and you'll lose A LOT of your capacity for enjoyment that way. It's just not worth it, in my opinion.
There are VERY FEW things that actually make any difference beyond the here and now. One of them is our children and the relationships we form. Please don't squander that for some fake rainbow's end. Best wishes.
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