on Acceptance and Diversity
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on Acceptance and Diversity
| Mon, 04-12-2004 - 1:57am |
(mmm, we need a soapbox icon)
From time to time we get subjects here that result in heated debate.
| Mon, 04-12-2004 - 1:57am |
(mmm, we need a soapbox icon)
From time to time we get subjects here that result in heated debate.
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"Ladies ladies, some people feel that exploring 'down there' and masturbating is the only acceptable way and that anyone who disagrees is somehow lacking, but let's accept each other's individual beliefs comfort levels and skills, let's not denigrate other women who are very sexually content even without exploring 'down there' or ever having orgasms.
Let's say you have your way, I have mine, we are different, you talk about a clitoris and orgasms, I don't and I'm happy, and this is ok. If we don't want to know about the clitoris or look at our sexual organs this is our choice. Some of us enjoy the experience of spreading our legs and being penetrated, and watching our man enjoy himself, that is the most amazing experience for us and people should accept that.
Men have orgasms, but we know 99% of women don't, so it doesn't mean we're lacking, it's perfectly normal. We are so lucky in other ways, we don't have to get messy like men. Some of us would rather not look or touch 'down there' or have orgasms, let's accept who we are ladies."
NB - Shaving and swallowing are choices. They are not an integral part of sex and they are done by some and not by others not through ignorance of how to do it, but through choice.
50 years ago huh?
If we are talking acceptance and diversity, 50 years ago
CL-Yasmin1967
May I have the serenity to accept what I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I
Everybody has a choice and I respect that, but when information is incorrect, I challenge it. Orgasms through intercourse are not weaker, they are natural and they are part of intercourse.
They can be clit-induced or vaginal, so God knows why it's ok to have a clit orgasm through manual stimulation but not through intercourse, and God knows why it would be considered weaker or not natural. There are individual variances of course, but these cannot be offered as universal definitions and guidelines for others, especially when you admit reluctance to learn.
Clitoral Orgasms:
Many women orgasm most easily through having their clitoris stimulated. Clitoral orgasms are sharp, sudden, and explosive. Only the outermost part of the vagina contracts in a clitoral orgasm, narrowly focusing the sensation. Unlike a man’s orgasm, which once started no force on earth can stop it, a clitoral orgasm can easily stop midway through if stimulation is stopped before the orgasm is completed.
Vaginal Orgasms:
Vaginal orgasms feel different than clitoral orgasms. Rather than focused and sharp, vaginal orgasms feel deeper, last longer, are more relaxed, and for many women feel more satisfying. They spread in warm “waves” throughout her body. Unlike clitoral orgasms, which can stop halfway through, a vaginal orgasm continues through to the end once it begins.
I expect to be challenged if I am wrong, but so far I've seen no arguments.
Your acceptance speech is ok when people are clear about the facts and make a choice. We haven't even agreed on the facts here, so acceptance is a little way down the road still.
Edited 4/12/2004 6:51 am ET ET by i_bestgirl
>>Your acceptance speech is ok when people are clear about the facts and make a choice. We haven't even agreed on the facts here, so acceptance is a little way down the road still. <<
acceptance and diversity is just as appropriate when the facts are fuzzy.
CL-Yasmin1967
May I have the serenity to accept what I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I
You keep referring to the historical picture on this issue and looking at it from some sort of broad societal scope of people who have an "agenda". The regulars on this board look at it from an almost entirely personal point of view plus that of giving one-on-one advice to women who come here with individual problems. The regulars here are mostly in secure, long-term relationships with loving and understanding men. The historical background and all these "agendas" of societal groups mean little or nothing to them. They come here to share a few ideas and to try to help other women. Sometimes I'm not sure why they bother as many of the women they give advice to don't even bother to respond or acknowledge it.
These are the perspectives (or agendas) that you see:
(1) The historical one. That women can't enjoy sex at all and, as Queen Victoria said, they should just "lie back and think of England" while men do their thing. A little later in history, this also includes the Freudian myth about vaginal orgasms being more mature than clitoral ones. I thought that one had long since been debunked. After all, Freud thought cigars were penises.
(2) The "feminazi" one. During the women's movement of the 70s, a lot of focus was put on women's enjoyment of sex and the importance of the clitoris. This was very good since the clitoris is the only human organ devoted solely to sexual pleasure. Unfortunately, for some, this swung things to "the clitoris is king (or queen ,I guess)" to the exclusion of anything else. "Bring out your vibrators and do it yourself, what do we need men for."
(3) The sexual revolution. Now everyone is aware women want and can enjoy sex. Men have orgasms easily through intercourse, women should, too. This is the attitude that puts a lot of pressure on women and the one that most of the regulars here are dealing with when women come here thinking there is something wrong with them because they don't orgasm easily this way. I agree that these women should be told that there is nothing wrong with them, and these kind of orgasms are not easy. I just don't agree that they should be told that they are impossible for most women so forget about them.
(4) The really selfish men(fortunately these are a minority). Some of these could really care less, but most are just aware enough to want the woman to enjoy it, but only because it makes them (the men) feel better. "Gee, I stuck it in and did my thing for five or ten minutes and I came. Didn't you? No? Hey, what's wrong with you?" These are the guys women fake it for. Hey! they even WANT women to fake it!
You should know that while the regulars here probably are aware of these "agendas", that's not at all where they're coming from.
Since the theme here seems to be the forward progress of history, you should know that the Taoists in China had this thing pretty well figured out a couple of thousand years ago. Of course that message has been lost and found over the centuries and never was that widespread even in China.
taoist.
>>The regulars on this board look at it from an almost entirely personal point of view plus that of giving one-on-one advice to women who come here with individual problems. The regulars here are mostly in secure, long-term relationships with loving and understanding men. The historical background and all these "agendas" of societal groups mean little or nothing to them. They come here to share a few ideas and to try to help other women. Sometimes I'm not sure why they bother as many of the women they give advice to don't even bother to respond or acknowledge it.<<
I can't respond for others, but for me this is an entirely true statement.
CL-Yasmin1967
May I have the serenity to accept what I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I
A good analysis. I agree wholeheartedly, including your comments (and Yasmin's) about the nature of this board.
My comment about the larger agenda was one that looked at society as a whole and feminist attitudes as a whole, there is a very clit-protective stance generally and this leaks down to boards like this one because some of the more general beliefs are left unchallenged on a larger scale.
I completely agree with this comment you made
'I agree that these women should be told that there is nothing wrong with them, and these kind of orgasms are not easy. I just don't agree that they should be told that they are impossible for most women so forget about them.'
This is pretty much what I was trying to say, in a nutshell. I went on to analyse the reasons behind this stance most women have but I realised debates such as these were not welcome. I also tried to explain the damage caused to a man by intercourse with only one-sided orgasms, and for some reason that didn't go down well either.
For women to remain firmly entrenched behind the clitoris is not only not beneficial in the larger sexual revolution scheme but is also depriving them of sexual pleasure and ultimately power. This positions trickles down into women's everyday lives and explains the very low numbers of those who achieve orgasm through intercourse.
Some quotes from men, some tragic, some hilarious, but all expressing interest in this particular aspect of sex:
'basically, a woman who can't orgasm via a thrustingcock is fridged, and likely has mental and emotional problems, perhaps even physical defects.'
'I do agree that when having sex it does feel a lot better for the guy if she cums.'
'my god, you (no orgasm) sound like the lousiest, most boring lay ive ever heard of'
'I'd prefer a woman who orgasms through intercourse but it's not a make or break sort of thing.'
' If a woman want clit stimulation, she can use her vibrator on her own time. I certainly do not want ot be involved. THe woman i knwo prefer penitration, and do not need or want clit stimulation, cause basicaly it is pointless.'
' A woman not being able to orgasm through sexual intercourse, is like a man who can't get it up. 'nuff said.'
'I think most of us would feel lousy if the woman wasn't getting off or was just laying there looking at her clock hurrying telling us to get done already... '
Edited 4/12/2004 9:38 am ET ET by i_bestgirl
Edited 4/12/2004 10:00 am ET ET by i_bestgirl
All but one of your quotes from men were from ONE man (and the one was the only reasonable one -about the deal-breaker) and they weren't tragic or hilarious, they were the obnoxious remarks of a selfish, narrow-minded jerk. He was the one who didn't care at all about women having orgasms as long as they pretended they were so HE could feel better. Most men are not like that guy, but unfortunately there are plenty of them around , and for reasons I can never understand a lot of women seem to be willing to cater to them.
taoist
P.S. OK, I checked askmen.com again and that particular jerk was only responsible for 2 or 3 of the most obnoxious of your quotes. A couple of the others were from similar posters. My point remains the same.
BTW, I registered for askmen.com and they still won't let me post on that thread.
Edited 4/12/2004 10:33 am ET ET by taoistnovice
You've seen women on here ask what is wrong with them when their partner can't keep an erection, as much as you reassure them it's not them, they'll be trying harder to please to get the desired reaction. It's psychological but can't be ignored. It's accentuated in the case of men who 'fail' since there is no sex without erection, but in the case of women the effects are still there for a man, in higher and lower proportion. A man who has a partner who cums through intercourse is proud of it, can't deny that. By deduction the opposite is also true, nobody will say or make a big deal of it of course, just like women try not to make a big deal of a man who doesn't perform as they expect, but of course they know.
No idea why you can't post. It might take a while for registration to go through.
Agreed about the one jerk, quite comical too though, but 2 quotes only were from one man, the others were from lots of different men.
Leticia
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