cheaters and compassion

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-13-2004
cheaters and compassion
42
Sun, 05-29-2005 - 10:58pm

We have had a recent group of threads about cheating, and many of the replying posts seem to be extremely judgemental in reply.

Could I ask that we take a moment to consider the state of mind of many a cheating woman? Many attacking replies talk about love and respect - but I'm thinking that it would be very difficult to love and respect a partner if you don't love and respect yourself first.

Perhaps the cheating woman is the product of sex abuse or carnal knowledge. Perhaps she grew up in a household without a good male role model. Perhaps she's got so little self esteem that she sleeps around in an effort to feel loved.

When we attack these posters (and let's face it, there have been some blantantly rude posts in reply), are we actually helping these women? If their self esteem is already so low that they sleep around to find acceptance, how will us beating them up further help them? If anything, I think it would do more damage than good.

While I don't for one moment think that posters should condone the cheating, perhaps compassion may be more appropriate than attack? Surely helpful discussion would be more fruitful to help them understand the dynamics of their ways than the attacks that we currently see. Yes, we will get trolls from time to time who discuss cheating just to get a rise out of posters, but we also get real people posting with real issues.

May I remind you of one of the basic rules of humanity? "May those who have never sinned cast the first stone"

Dress Up Games, Doll Makers and Cartoon Dolls @ The Doll Palace
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-18-2001
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 12:04am

Low self esteem may be a reason, but it is not an excuse. Cheating is about ego and is a selfish "I want it all/ I need it all" decision. You don't inadvertently or 'accidentally' cheat.

The closest that I have come to cheating was when I was 18 and in a LDR when I cheated then. I've also had a wife cheat on me. So I've got a little bit of experience with it.

At the end of the day cheating is a completely concious decision. Yes, passion can make it confusing but your judgement is rarely clouded by passion for hours or days at a time. a bad childhood or issues earlier in your life can make it confusing but you still know what is right and what is wrong. I feel quite strongly about it and I don't condon it.

I do agree that attacking someone isn't going to make them see the error of their ways, but I don't necessarily think that you need to start making excuses for people that cheat. If they aren't grown up enough or mature enough to accept responsibility for the choices that they make then they shouldn't be married or in a relationship in the first place.




Edited 5/31/2005 12:13 am ET ET by westridge2001
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Registered: 10-13-2004
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 1:06am

Wanting to re-iterate yet again that I'm not condoning cheating nor am I making excuses. Part of my learning to not be a cheater revolves around taking responsibility for my own actions. And learning how to avoid getting into the situation in the first place.

>>If they aren't grown up enough or mature enough to accept responsibility for the choices that they make then they shouldn't be married or in a relationship in the first place<<

Quite true. But people *do* get married that shouldn't People *are* in relationships that they shouldn't be. Sometimes we don't realise that we shouldn't have gotten married until it all falls down around us. So, do we deny people help because they made the mistake of getting married?

Regarding clouded judgement.....I'm on antidepressants. Without them, my judgement *is* poor long term. It's virtually impossible to get off the spiral of being depressed...and it's all abut me. In my cloud of misery, it's quite easy to forget that others have feelings too. Yes, when I'm depressed I do know the difference between right and wrong...but fighting it can be too hard when I am struggling just to exist. Again, not all of us are rational at all times.




Edited 5/31/2005 1:54 am ET ET by iv_aisha2004
Dress Up Games, Doll Makers and Cartoon Dolls @ The Doll Palace
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-26-2004
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 8:43am

Well...let's take you as an example. You say that you were a serial cheater in the past. That you know what your triggers are and you avoid men to avoid temptation. Does that mean that if you for some reason find yourself locked in a corner with a man you find very attractive that you'll cheat, and then chalk it up to a mistake? I find it hard to understand your thought process. I don't and have never felt such temptation. My heart, soul and body belongs to DH--literally. I could have the man of my dreams alone,seducing me, and I wouldn't bite. I'm assuming here that you have a strong relationship and no issues at all.

Getting back to cheaters. I'm with Westie on this. From all of the cheaters that I've known personally, it's basically an ego thing and a selfish act. They were full-grown adults, who really didn't care about the consequences of their actions, plain and simple. The knew exactly what they were doing, and had little thought for anyone but themselves. We're not talking about small consequences either--taking down whole families with them.

Ignorance is no excuse. The whole premise of a relationship, is monogomy. To break it is the worst thing you can do. It's elementary my dear. To claim "I know not what I do." is simply ludicrous and a cop-out. That's why I have a no-tolerance stance on this very issue. I do understand that it can happen, and it may, but the clear consequence for that CHOICE is that you lose me. My husband's an adult, and he understands this very clearly, as do I. Should either of us cheat, we can't play stupid. ;-)

Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein )
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-15-2003
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 9:43am

Dear Aisha and All,

This is an important post and one that we should all keep in the forefront of out consciousness. A couple of points if I may:

In all communication, but especially in a format like this, we only get part of the story. We really only get one perspective from one person involved and not the whole picture. While cheating is an incredibly destructive thing to spouse and to family, it is MOST destructive to the one that is cheating. So there is plenty of room for compassion.

Westridge mentioned that he had been cheated on. I too have had that experience in my first marriage. My (now ex-wife) got pregnant twice by a man other than me (I had a vasectomy at the time); she had abortions without my knowledge and that's eventually how I found out (we already had two children). I moved out after the second pregnancy (yep, I toughed it through the first one after she promised that she had learned her lesson) and was sleeping on the floor at work. My wife moved her boyfriend in (who had two kids and was married just like us) within two days of my leaving. I carried a lot of anger and judgment about the situation for a long time. However, Anger and judgment will eventually kill you. As it turned out, the best thing that ever happened in my life was to have my wife cheat on me...I met and married a wonderful woman (reversed my vasectomy) and had two more children as well as raising my first two. We have a very close family and after 18 years of marriage things are better than they ever.

The thing is no one can ever see the whole picture and I've found that when we are judgmental of anyone it tends to bring into our lives that very thing that we hate so much. My ex-wife was extremely jealous and extremely judgmental of anyone that cheated on their spouse. My belief is that she pulled that experience into her life. She by the way, married the man that she cheated on me with and they have been together for years...they are a much better fit than she and I were.

Any one of us under the right circumstances could cheat...no matter how much we say that we couldn't. Had we been raised a little differently, or had a slightly particular psychological makeup, anyone could cheat, anyone could kill and anyone could be violent given a slightly different background or circumstances. "But for the Grace of God go I".

Labeling others as selfish or untrustworthy, unfaithful or stupid (IMO) just creates an opening in our own lives to experience any or all of those qualities.

Thanks for posting Aisha.

Peace.
Scott.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-13-2004
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 9:46am

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that it's an ego thing. Which is why I also say that many cheaters have self esteem issues.

>>You say that you were a serial cheater in the past. That you know what your triggers are and you avoid men to avoid temptation. Does that mean that if you for some reason find yourself locked in a corner with a man you find very attractive that you'll cheat, and then chalk it up to a mistake? I find it hard to understand your thought process. I don't and have never felt such temptation. My heart, soul and body belongs to DH--literally. I could have the man of my dreams alone,seducing me, and I wouldn't bite. I'm assuming here that you have a strong relationship and no issues at all<<

Would you give this scorn to an alcoholic who avoids alcohol in order to stay sober? Would you ask them what they'd do if they were in a corner with a bottle of scotch? And, no, I'm not exaggerating about the addiction thing. In my past, during my first marriage, the hit - the ego boost - that I got from cheating was an amazing high. And when I was feeling depressed that boost would be a very welcome high. Yes, I have issues...I suffered carnal knowledge as a young teen. The actions of this predator taught me, incorrectly, that having sex was a way to seek the attention and affirmation that was missing from my life. It has been a damn hard thing to unlearn. To this day, I have trouble telling the difference between love and lust in a relationship in it's early stages. I think that we can all acknowledge that habits learned when young can be hard to break.

For the record, I did seek help during this stage of my first marriage. I saw a number of counsellors and doctors - none of whom gave me the help that I needed. What I needed was someone to help me put the jigsaw together. To help me understand that my stale marriage, my depression, my chronic illness and my cheating were all intertwined. This is the help that I wish we could give the posters that arrive here.

As far as my decision to continue to avoid men? Yes, I still have issues...ongoing depression. A few years back I found myself "at risk" with a very nice man. At that time my depression was undiagnosed and his attentions made my depression appear to stop for a while. Have you ever been in a chronically depressed state? Have you experienced those clouds temporarily lifting and allowing you to feel alive again? This is how it felt for me. Of course, the depression didn't really go, but the adrenaline made me feel better. However, this time around I was able to figure it out myself. I sought help and went on antidepressants. I also talked at length with my husband and we together addressed the issues that were making me weak. But seeing that weakness still there in me scared me to bits. So I avoid friendships with men.

I don't understand alcoholism. I don't understand drug addiction. I don't understand gambling addiction. But I *do* understand that the high that someone gets from these things is similar to the high that I was getting from cheating. I understand that the high is so good that it can make the addict selfish and have the potential to ruin families and lives. Just as those recovering addicts must avoid temptation *for the rest of their lives* I choose to do the same. Why are some people prone to addiction while others cannot begin understand it? I don't know. I do know however that I have an addictive personality. Generally, I can keep it under control and direct it into nice hobbies...but I always have to watch myself.

Yep, I'd say that I have issues.

But this thread is not about me. And some posters seem to be missing my point here. I'm not condoning cheating. I'm not making excuses. It's a terrible, selfish act - no doubt about it.

What I am suggesting is some compassion for those who come here with issues related to cheating. I'm suggesting that we should be civil and quit with the judgement in order to give the OP the help they need. Give them the help that I sought and couldn't find when I needed it.

Dress Up Games, Doll Makers and Cartoon Dolls @ The Doll Palace
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-13-2004
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 9:57am

Scott, thank you for your words. In my post (#16) I have tried to explain what was going on in my head when I was cheating. But I'm frightened by what the posters will say in response. I'm scared that by being honest and trying to explain - that I will only bring more judgement back onto myself. I fear they they will think that I'm "just making excuses" when infact I'm trying to explain a weakness that I have identified and am dealing with as best as I can.

This thread shouldn't be about judging me - or other cheaters. It's about understanding that we are all human and we all make mistakes. Sure not all of us cheat....but I think that most people here could admit to doing one really, really, stupid and hurtful thing to a partner at some stage in their lives.

Dress Up Games, Doll Makers and Cartoon Dolls @ The Doll Palace
iVillage Member
Registered: 09-25-2004
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 10:12am

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Yes, I do to a degree. As a result of my parents beginning the divorce process when I was 2, the amount of emotional trauma that it brought (there's a deeper story than them divorcing), and the end result it brought I suffered from depression. I also developed Trichotillomania. Its obsessive hair pulling brought on by periods of extreme stress. The sufferer pulls to feel some release from his/her stress but has a hard time stopping. One of the ways is with medication. I won't medicate myself. I've come along way alone w/o medicine. I don't want to start now.

As for Scott and him saying that a lot of our responses in our adult lives come from how we were raised as children. When I was 7, I came home from school. In the front windows of the house I lived in, there was my mom. She was furiously scrubbing the glass of the windows. She was crying her eyes out. I walked in and asked her what was wrong. She couldn't talk. She had thrown my "stepfather" out for cheating on her. She caught him cheating and using drugs. She was so distraught. Her pain has carried with me for years. She was so battered emotionally. Why would I want to do that to someone? Why would I want to make them feel the way I saw it make my mom feel? My current stepfather has cheated on my mother as well. Instead of it making her feel low and vulnerable, it has made her bitter and angry. Why would I want to make someone feel like that? My DH knows what its like to have a spouse cheat. His exW did it to him. He said it made him feel like a fool. Why would I want to do that to him? Why would I want to make him feel less than what he really is? Why would I want to batter his self-esteem, his sense of pride, and his manhood to make myself feel better? Why do I want to seek something that in my heart I know I could get right at home if I made my marriage a priority rather than a problem?
I understand that sex can be an addiction. And the high from sex can be an addiction. I also know that people have an innate sense of right and wrong built in. They know what they are doing is wrong. They have the power to stop, but they can't because they are hooked. Its like drugs. Its like alcohol. But, if you can recognize a behavior before it gets out of hand, why not stop? If you can stop yourself from running that annoying old bag over in the grocery store parking lot, then you can stop yourself from destroying what matters most. Its about learning to recognize patterns and triggers. And, its learning to deal with them w/o causing harm to yourself and others. The old "how would I feel if Johnny did this to me?" is a good trick. I use it a lot before I start blowing up bridges. But then again, not everyone has the ability to reason with themselves, recognize troublesome patterns, and stop them before they escalate. Some people realize what they are doing is wrong and don't give a damn. Why should they stop if they get what they want? Who cares if they are hurting someone else? They feel better and that makes it right in their minds.
I have compassion for those that recognize. I don't have compassion for people like Emilie who came here seeking approval for cheating. I won't put a stamp of approval on a behavior one knows isn't right. If you know its not right, then learn to stop before it starts. Honesty goes a lot farther than lying. That's one lesson my mom taught me that I carry always.

iVillage Member
Registered: 09-25-2004
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 10:21am

I hurt my partner by holding a past mistake of his during the beginning of our relationship over his head every moment of every day. I hurt him a lot with that. I'm not proud of it. Mild compared to some hurts, but I still hurt him.

As for judging you, I haven't. And, I won't. I see you as an intelligent woman with the capabilities to think, feel, and act for yourself. I see you as a woman who knows right and wrong, and knows how to deal with tough situations. I've never met you, but this is who I think you are. I'm sure I'm pretty close to right on that.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-15-2003
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 10:22am

Aisha,

I read post #16 and the analogy that you used with drugs and alcohol was a good one. You're right, every addiction is essentially the same. Addiction of any kind is the search for happiness and love (at its heart); it is the search for an experience with the Divine. It is the very human belief that joy and love and happiness exists "out there"...And if you just were to get that one thing that you needed, you would be able to be happy and life would be good. BUt it never happens, because joy and love and peace all reside within the one place that no one ever looks...within your own heart. Once you can find that place you radiate love and joy; not only do you have love for yourself and realize that God (apologees to those that don't like that word) lives within the temple of your own heart, you have love to spare for all those around you. Then there is no need to search for love and for joy. Then you are with your partner because you choose to be with them, not because you "need" them. Then the relationship is based on joy, playfulness and mutual giving...there is no need to be so serious anymore. No longer do you need to run to a drug or porn or affairs because you realize that you have everything you need...you always did. Relationships based on need almost never work. We have within our own hearts an endless wellspring of love, but most of us put a cap on that well and search outside for tiny little snippets of love from others. In other words, we settle for the map instead of the whole territory.

Everything in our lives is a choice...everything, and we go about making choices at every moment. However, most of us do it unconsciously based on some old conditioning. We are lonely and that presses a button and off we go into a pattern of behaviour. Just like pressing a button on a tape recorder. The secret is to become conscious choice makers, and then we can choose the life that we wish rather than allowing our conditioning to choose for us.

It reminds me of a story of a young man who was told that God lived within a temple. He sees the door to the temple and spends years pounding and pounding to get in...finally, exhausted from his efforts, he puts his back to the door and slides to the floor...he cries out and opens his eyes to learn that he has been inside the temple all along and pounding to get out.

Much love to you.
Scott.

PS - it is my belief that depression is anger turned inwardly toward yourself. Check to see if you have any anger or hold any judgments of your beautiful self...express it, let it go and I think you will find that your depression starts to let go as well.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-26-2004
Tue, 05-31-2005 - 10:50am

"Would you give this scorn to an alcoholic who avoids alcohol in order to stay sober? Would you ask them what they'd do if they were in a corner with a bottle of scotch?"

I didn't realize I was giving anyone scorn. To answer your question....I think that at some point the addict has to realize that they can't run or hide from the substance. They have to realize that it's all around them, always there for the taking. I know alcoholics who still socialize in bars. I smoked when I was young, and I quit. Cigarettes abound me. ;-)

"As far as my decision to continue to avoid men? Yes, I still have issues...ongoing depression. A few years back I found myself "at risk" with a very nice man. At that time my depression was undiagnosed and his attentions made my depression appear to stop for a while. Have you ever been in a chronically depressed state? Have you experienced those clouds temporarily lifting and allowing you to feel alive again? This is how it felt for me. Of course, the depression didn't really go, but the adrenaline made me feel better. However, this time around I was able to figure it out myself. I sought help and went on antidepressants. I also talked at length with my husband and we together addressed the issues that were making me weak. But seeing that weakness still there in me scared me to bits. So I avoid friendships with men."

I'm sure that there's a lot of great gratification from cheating(or else it wouldn't exist) and that there are underlying issues for some who do it. What I can't understand is how it relates to the SO. I guess for me, it's because I feel that if DH cheated on me, I would be devastated beyond belief(and I've seen it happen to other spouses). That's why I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't be doing it TO him. I will never say never though--I'm not so arrogant. ;-)

"What I am suggesting is some compassion for those who come here with issues related to cheating. I'm suggesting that we should be civil and quit with the judgement in order to give the OP the help they need. Give them the help that I sought and couldn't find when I needed it."

If you noticed in my posts to the cheater below, I only addressed how their actions affect their SO. I try to MAKE them emphathize. I try to make them see that even though they may have cheated, that the continuing lies and deceit is NOT fair to the SO. It's one thing if the SO knows about the cheating and chooses to live with it, it's certainly another thing if they are continuing to be lied to. That's the angle that I usually take when a cheater comes to the board.





Edited 5/31/2005 10:51 am ET ET by rain_dancer_iam
Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein )