Masculine, Feminine, or WHAT?

iVillage Member
Registered: 07-26-2005
Masculine, Feminine, or WHAT?
11
Thu, 11-03-2005 - 8:16am

I had an "encounter" yesterday that made me think of the "What is masculine" thread that's going on now.

This was a new experience for me. I'm a very liberal person, live and let live, all that good stuff. Whatever people's choices are in life, that's their business, and I try not to judge anyone.

While I was shopping, pushing my cart around, looking for things I needed, I happened to notice a woman in front of me, doing the same thing. The reason I noticed her was that despite the fact that it was fairly cold outside (mid-50 degrees), here she was with fairly short skin tight shorts on, along with high heeled knee high boots. Her legs were fairly thin and shapeless, certainly nothing worth "showing off". She was tall, and the high heeled boots made her VERY tall. She had shoulder length straight mixed gray hair, and she was sashaying around, filling her cart and strutting her stuff. I noticed people coming toward me (and past her) staring, and looking kind of dumbfounded.

Eventually, I met her coming head on down an aisle. Then I realized what everyone had been staring at. It was a MAN! I tried not to stare, or even look at him/her...but it was like a train wreck, trying NOT to look was impossible. Now I had a hard time not looking because I was trying to figure out, was this a very ugly woman, or a man? The "makeup" was awful, the first thing you saw was the bright red circle of "blusher" on the cheeks. Heavy eye makeup, and very red lipstick. A not too natural looking wig. The dead "giveaway" was the VERY prominent Adams Apple.

"She" and I got to the cashiers at about the same time, but she was in a different line. By that time, there was a lot of giggling going on, and the store employees themselves were "strolling" past the checkout line, and not succeeding very well at supressing their laughs. It was very obvious that they were running around and telling other employees to stroll past and "check it out". Meanwhile, the person seemed very oblivious to all that was going on around him/her.

I've seen plenty of medical TV shows about transgendered people, and I've seen shows about transvestites. I know the difference, but I have no idea which of these that person was. On one hand I felt very sorry for him/her. (I have NO idea how to refer to this person....."him" (obviously)? or "her"?) It would be no different if it was a serious handicap.....people were being very rude. But then, it was his/her choice to appear in public this way, and I'm sure he/she has seen this behavior before, and has learned to live with it. I'm sure he/she would have attracted a lot LESS attention if the outfit hadn't been so out of place, shorts and bare legs on a cold day!

Later on, I was thinking about the ongoing discussion here about what is "masculine". This person was in no way feminine.....so was he/she masculine? As I and others said, a lot of it is in the eye of the beholder. I can't tell you what I thought, because I'm not sure. She wanted to appear feminine, but it didn't come off that way. So, here's a 6 foot plus guy that's definitely not feminine, but is he masculine? Not in my book! Looking at his facial features, I have a feeling that without the female disguise, he would look very masculine, but he's obviously not that either.

As I said, I've seen TV documentaries about it, I've read newspaper articles about it, but yet seeing it in real life was very disconcerting. SOMEONE should give this guy some advice about dressing appropriately, and how to use makeup, that's for sure!

So, what is this person? Masculine, or feminine? Neither? Both? I certainly don't know! Has anyone here actually seen this up close and personal? What was your reaction? What are your thoughts?

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iVillage Member
Registered: 04-23-2004
Thu, 11-03-2005 - 9:22am

The city I live in, going downtown it's not that uncommon of a sight to see and I travel to NYC a lot so most of the time I don't even notice.


bounxh0a-1.gif picture by dillbyrd

iVillage Member
Registered: 06-14-2002
Thu, 11-03-2005 - 2:36pm

Not to burst your bubbles, but what if "he" lost a football bet with his wife and this was "his" wager ? I don't know, I didn't see, but from the garish sound of things, I could very easily see this as a possibility.

CH

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-23-2004
Thu, 11-03-2005 - 2:43pm
Hey, you never know.

bounxh0a-1.gif picture by dillbyrd

iVillage Member
Registered: 12-20-2004
Fri, 11-04-2005 - 11:45am
Ofcourse someone else might look at that same guy/gal and think that the person IS effeminate. Ive seen women who struck me as not feminine at all. Normally very very plan Jane like with no extra effort to look different. (not masculine though). I think its a little tougher for a man. If he doesnt look masculine, he probably looks more feminine. But I guess thats my opinion, others may have a different idea about the same person.
Think of Woody Allen...not the most masculine looking guy, but does he look feminie?.
Or the movie "Return of the Nerds"..Not masculine but feminine?..Im not sure.
iVillage Member
Registered: 12-24-2004
Fri, 11-04-2005 - 5:33pm
I can't comment on your situation, because I was not there, but.... has anyone here seen the TBS show He's A Lady? It was on for six weeks from mid October to late November of last year. This was a reality show that had 11 different guys being transformed to women to see who was the most convincing at the end and then win $250,000. There were two young (20's) guys in particular (Albert and Michael)who came out looking just stunning! IMO they could have fooled almost anyone. We all know that one picture is worth a thousand words, so I will post a link to the official TBS site for that show for others to check for themselves. I think that this will shake up some perceptions! Here is the site.... http://www.tbs.com/shows/hesalady/
Avatar for katmandoo2001
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 11-07-2005 - 4:36pm

I would say this man was masculine but with what HE thought was a feminine facade. The makeup, wig, clothing, etc. failed to conceal his real gender so it just looked bizarre.

I know that a person seeking transgender surgery must live as the opposite sex for one year before the actual surgery is performed. They're also put on hormone treatments to soften the skin, beard, develop the breasts, etc. I've seen this type of pre-transgendered person and you're right....it's very hard NOT to look.

Of course, this guy may just be into cross dressing, too.

iVillage Member
Registered: 10-18-2001
Tue, 11-08-2005 - 3:31am

We had a guy (or woman or whatever you care to call him/her/it) come to one of the restaurants that I worked at on a regular, but not frequent, basis, and dine alone. It was a posh restaurant and we all knew that we had to address this person as Mrs. Robertson. S/he was a man about 50, had a bad long brunette wig and awful makeup, and dressed very english Lady-like. Very similar to your experience in many ways.

To this day I still don't know what to make of it. Clearly he was fooling no-one about his true gender. I also cannot believe that he would have been unaware of people's reactions. Still, he was very pleasant and returned regularly spending considerable sums of money and tipping quite well.

I think that my feelings mirror yours. It's hard to know what to think.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-07-2005
Tue, 11-08-2005 - 9:40am

I have been watching this line of discussion since it was first posted wondering what sort of responses there would be because it does seem that there is a lot of confusion about those who wrestle with their gender identity. I can't claim to be an expert, but this is something we have had to deal with in our wider family which has taught me many things and made me much more sensitive.

There is a significant difference between those who cross dress and those who are transsexual. Cross dressers, often straight men who have a need for one reason or another to escape into a feminine identity for a while, are probably the individuals that folks are noticing and coming across. Male cross dressers seem to have no desire to BE women, but they do like the idea of being able to explore a female persona. Most don't go out, but some do.

Transsexuality is not about presenting as a woman for a while, in the case of a male-to-female it is about needing to BE a woman. Now we have a twentysomething in our family who is a true transsexual. In a few months she will have her final reassignment surgery and a process of treatment, surgery, counseling, etc., that as lasted for a number of years will begin drawing to a close. I can remember her as a little boy preferring to play with Barbies, and her mother said time and again that she was always more comfortable in her sister's clothes. She didn't want to dress as a girl because it gave her a kick but because this is the way females dress.

In her late teens she made it clear to her parents that at heart she was really female, and since then there has been a lot of treatment that has helped her explore that reality and begin to live into it. It has been wrenching at times, but the family by and large has stuck by her.

I suspect that if you were to meet her you would have absolutely no idea about her unusual journey through life. Now in her twenties, she is a vivacious young woman with long brown hair, large blue eyes, slightly taller than average, and the sweetest smile. She loves kids, has a flair with clothes, and hopes to get married one day. Because she doesn't want to be treated as some kind of oddity she keeps this quiet and at college and work has always been just one of the girls.

I hope this helps because such struggles are going on in more and more lives, especially those of young males who know in their deepest hearts that they really are girls.

Using the name of Emmaslittlemom

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-17-2003
Tue, 11-08-2005 - 11:09am

It's not really for me or anyone else to judge, only the person who has to look at themselves in the mirror.

 

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-27-2002
Tue, 11-08-2005 - 12:27pm

I think this "guy" was probably on an assignment from his in-person or online Mistress/Dominatrix, spouse or combination of both. IMHO, it was either a humiliation or forced-feminization assignment/experiment.

Ted in Gilbert, AZ

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