Why are facials degrading?
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Why are facials degrading?
| Sun, 08-06-2006 - 8:28pm |
I have seen many posts that describe facials as degrading to a woman. Why is that? I've always asked a partner if I could cum on her body before I did it, and wouldn't do it without permission. What is it, though, that makes a facial particularly objectionable? I don't see where it's any more degrading than cumming in her mouth, or on her breasts, etc.

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....another interesting relative article....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/05/060529102546.htm
I thought this article may be interesting as well as it shows information about how estrogen is actually important to the proper levels of testosterone (or free available testosterone) in BOTH sexes....
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2000/10/001022201617.htm
Rice, you never did answer my question to you with respect to your own "suppression" of your own DESIRES. What I cannot understand is how YOU of all people cannot understand the actual dynamics of this whole concept. If YOU yourself have acted in the exact manner (suppressing your natural sexual desires so as not to be thought "ill" of by women) why then, can you not empathize with women who do the same? Why can't you accept that women, like you, may have just been "masking" their true desires for reasons other than "they're just not sexual?"
This was my question to you:
"In the same way that you "felt" that women would "think" ill of you if you made a move (which controlled what you truly desired), do you not think that the same could have been controlling women's desires?"
In response to this:
"Looking over those assumptions, it’s a wonder I got laid at all, LOL. I guess there were times that my physical desires overwhelmed my defense mechanisms and I didn’t always end up being called a jerk. I will say that the times it happened it was never planned and it always came as complete surprise to me, which also made it easy for me to write it off as a fluke. Still, I probably should have been more willing to risk being thought a jerk and give in to my desires. Who knows what would have happened? One incident in particular comes to mind. When I was in graduate school and home for the holidays I ran into a young woman I had known in high school. We had dated in high school and college and, although I was very attracted to her, I don’t think that I ever kissed her. Anyway, she seem happy to see me and invited me to have dinner at her apartment. All through the evening I felt the same attraction that I had had before and really wanted to kiss her, but I was more concerned that, by doing so, I would have misconstrued her intentions, upset her, and would have ruined a wonderful evening."
You dated her through high school and college and you NEVER kissed her? What was she suppose to think? However, this is why, I thought, if anything, I thought YOU of all people would understand, since you yourself were guilty of the exact same behavior as the women you so vehemently judge. Ironically, you actually "experienced" the same exact dynamic I was trying to explain to you....and yet you deny that it even exists.
Edited 8/26/2006 10:52 am ET by rain_dancer_iam
So, you thought that being a gentlemen was never even making out with a girl, not even after years of dating her? I'm sorry, Rice, but that story is a bit confusing. But in any event, the dynamics are still the same. You wanted sex, she may have wanted to have sex, but society and it's "rules" dictated how you acted on those desires (not saying that they were necessarily wrong or bad), just that since you were "controlled" by your beliefs, so could she have been.
Well....Rice, it was a transition time for everyone involved. Coming out of the fifties and all. I think it would have been safe to just wait until the woman made the first move, being that we were in a transition time. Most women knew that men wanted to have sex....it was a given and something we had been made well aware of. Most of the women of my time would verbally let guys know what they wanted to do to them, or wanted them to do to them. They made the first move basically, or it just happened (mutually). Even Gigi, I think, who waited five years to have sex with his wife, still made out and did some fondling during their "courtship" and that was fifty-five years ago.
It was one thing to be a gentlemen and not grope or attempt to have sex with her, but certainly it would seem odd that you actually dated this girl for years and never truly kissed her, not even once. I think you really took the "gentlemen" thing a little too seriously, Rice....you must have come across as a monk. Are you sure that you two were "dating" and not just "hanging out" as friends? She may have thought you were gay too, Rice--I know that I might have. ;-) But of course, she would have been wrong, right? You can never tell a book by it's cover (literally)....which was all that I've been saying all along, Rice.....
Edited 8/26/2006 7:05 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
I have no doubt that if men left it to women to make the first move, our species would be extinct within two generations, LOL.
Anyway, maybe 'dating' wasn't the correct term to use. Although we went out on real dates, they were spread out, maybe six in the span of three years. Still, until I met my wife, that was the most dates I had had with any one girl. As far as her thinking that I might be gay, I'm hoping that she didn't. Especially after one evening where she found herself stuck, alone, in the back seat of my car while her roommate and I made out in the front seat. That was another thing that made me wonder about how she felt about me. It seemed that every time I decided to get serious about dating her and making her my girlfriend, she would introduce me to one of her friends and encourage me to ask her out. The aforementioned roommate was also the girl who said that she felt like she was going to throw up when I put her hand on my penis. She was, however, the first girl to let me take her bra off and to put my hand inside her pants, so that was something. Although I felt bad about making her feel bad and probably wouldn't have tried anything else, she said that she didn't want to see me again so I never got a chance to not do anything, LOL.
"I have no doubt that if men left it to women to make the first move, our species would be extinct within two generations, LOL."
tee hee....yes, you have repeatedly said as much. But do not kid yourself....women have been "making the first move"...since the beginning of time....we just "let" you think you do. We know all about your egos and "being the man" and all... ;-)
Yes, it sounds as though she wasn't interested or she may have very well have been confused, as it seems so to me. It must be me, because whenever I met a man (and he, I), and there was an instant connection, we didn't "waste" much time. I couldn't imagine going a day without seeing him, let alone six months at a time.
In any event, I'm not sure if I'm reading things correctly, but it sounds as though you have never had any relationships (gfs) at all before you met your wife, and if this girl was the only girl you had gone on at least six dates with, it sounds as though you didn't have much experience with dating at all (not that there is anything wrong with that). I do remember you mentioning some sexual experiences other than your wife though, (receiving BJ's and having sex with a few women), so I'm at a loss as to how you can conclude that women do not like sex. I would think in those instances, you had to remove a bra and would have had carte blanche` to her genitals. So, it would seem then that you had "sex" with a few women not only outside of a relationship, but within less than six dates! So what exactly are you complaining about Rice? Oh, yes, women are not sexual.... ;-)
Edited 8/26/2006 9:00 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
Rice, did you ever hear the expression submissive? Many women believed that they had to "submit" to sex and that it was the man who had to "initiate" because he was the aggressor. It wasn't lady-like for women to be aggressive, particuarly sexually--it was a turn-off, not a turn-on and even within the confines of a marriage. Why do you think that many women just "laid" there? It was because sex was for "men's" pleasure, not women's. Why do you think there was a sexual revolution? Women's sexuality was screaming to get out. It was even believed that women weren't capable of fantasizing or masturbating--another misconception. I think this "thinking" took a few generations to work itself out, but even still today, many men will be turned off by an "experienced" woman or an aggressive sexual woman. Again, it was another area where women had to "suppress" their true desires for fear of judgement.
Since you never really had anything but casual sex other than with your wife, I do not see how you can say that you personally experienced women who didn't seem to think that sex was all that important. I think, Rice, that you're basing most of your views on your wife's behavior.
I'm going to assume that she's only a few years older than me (as you are), but I do know that I could not honestly tell you "who" initiated sex each and every encounter. We "both" wanted it badly since we were both living home and didn't have very many opportunities. Most likely, we were kissing at some point and "both" getting all hot and bothered, so it was just a matter of "where." I truly couldn't tell you, who initiated more. Are you telling me that your wife and you never had passionate moments like that? Are you telling me that your wife never came up to you and kissed you passionately in all of the years you were married to her?
Again, Rice, as I stated in my previous post, women who felt that they "couldn't" be aggressive, were actually being aggressive all along in their own way....using indirect "seductive" mechanisms. As the years have rolled on, Rice, women's sexuality has "come out." Women are equally the aggressors and feel free to express that they are sexual and that enjoying sex is not being a "dirty" girl. If a woman feels this way about sex, Rice, that it's "dirty" they will probably only "do it" when they are "made to" (not as in forcing them to, but as in "wifely duty"), because then she would still be a "submissive." And this still goes on today, believe it or not. Only men are allowed to get down and dirty because they are "men." I was listening to Howard Stern on the radio the other day and they were all watching a porn movie (I believe it was amatueur). I couldn't see it obviously, but all you could hear was the young woman's voice (and I say that because she was 18 or 19). She was saying things that even shocked Howard. Of course, they all commented on it, (even to the effect that she never shut up at all), but Howard said something to the effect of: "I'd love it if a woman talked to me that way during sex, but I wouldn't marry her." It has to do with the Madonna/Whore complex, I believe, at least on some level.
In any event, I'm not saying that any of this depicts your wife's psyche at all, just that this was something that may have been an issue, particuarly if she was brought up in a strictly religious environment.
Again, Rice, you are looking at this all from a man's perspective. Sex to you was just a natural biological urge; something you were free to act on without any social repercussions (if the opportunity arose). You only had one issue to worry about and it "controlled" your behaviour, imagine having many.
We are discussing mostly women of the past, but if you want, we can discuss the modern woman as well. As far as I can tell, you are speaking about then, and not now.
Edited 8/27/2006 9:52 am ET by rain_dancer_iam
I never had a woman come up to me and kiss me passionately, but then, I never expected one to do that. That just didn't seem to me something that woman was likely to do, except, perhaps, in a movie, in which case it wouldn't be any more real than the stunts that the male actors did.
I obviously don't have any first-hand experience with the way women are today, young or otherwise. You tell me that women are expressing their 'sexuality' more feely, but I have to wonder how it is that behavior patterns that have existed for tens of thousands of years could change so dramatically within the space of only a couple of generations. If indeed societal proscriptions against young women having sex are less than they used to be, couldn't it just mean that they don't have as many excuses to not have sex as they had when we were young? Or maybe they just don't mind giving it up as much, since there isn't as much of a downside, at least reputation-wise, although there are still the threats of STDs and unwanted pregnancies to be considered. There are any number of alternate explanations that don't depend upon an increased expression of their 'sexuality'.
I don't pry into my sons' social lives much, although both complain occasionally about how difficult it is to get a date, and how often they get stood up when they do manage to get a girl to agree to going out with them. So it's a bit discouraging to me to realize that that still hasn't changed from the way it was when I was their age. I know that I'm their father and I can't help but being biased, but I think that they're both good-looking guys, certainly better-looking than I was when I was their age. They're both athletic, smart, funny, and polite (which I think is their biggest problem when it comes to girls, LOL), so even I'm surprised that they have as much trouble as they do getting girls to go out with them. Things may have changed since you and I were young, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of it.
As far as Howard Stern is concerned, the guy is either jerk with a capital J, or he’s putting on a pretty good act to appeal to his jerk listeners.
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