Why are facials degrading?

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-04-1999
Why are facials degrading?
113
Sun, 08-06-2006 - 8:28pm
I have seen many posts that describe facials as degrading to a woman. Why is that? I've always asked a partner if I could cum on her body before I did it, and wouldn't do it without permission. What is it, though, that makes a facial particularly objectionable? I don't see where it's any more degrading than cumming in her mouth, or on her breasts, etc.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 11-26-2004
Sat, 08-12-2006 - 11:11pm

I don't necessarily think that higher-class people are immune to humiliating and debilitating treatment of women. I just think that they have the means to hide it better, or in some cases pay people off. They also have more to lose (status) so they will go to great lengths to conceal it. There are plenty of Manhattan Execs who treat women badly....do not let their status fool you.

Perhaps the lower-class are just being "natural" about it, and probably do not care what anyone says? I guess what I'm asking is do you think that it may be a "natural" tendency for a lot of men? Do you think that there is some innate propensity for men to treat women badly? I mean 40 men gang banging a 16 year old drunk girl. Do you not see a problem with that? I guess my question is what is "missing" here? Is it "empathy"..."compassion" "selfishness?" What? What are some theories on how 40 men could rape a 16 year old without even blinking an eye? What is it about "men" that is different from "women" that drives them to such behavior?




Edited 8/12/2006 11:12 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein )
Avatar for katmandoo2001
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 08-14-2006 - 7:26pm
Yes, Westie. I think the popularity of this type of porn directly correlates to the ever increasing education and affluence of women. The more successful women become, the more popular this type of porn becomes. Says something about the effect this type of "equality" has on many men, I guess.
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-18-2001
Tue, 08-15-2006 - 1:48am

>>I don't necessarily think that higher-class people are immune to humiliating and debilitating treatment of women.<<

Good point. I am well aware that more affluent men are probably more subtle (at least in public) with their abuse but it's a good reminder.

Sorry, it wasn't 40 men, it was about half a dozen 40year old men with that sixteen year old. And they were definitely not raping her. It was her "idea" appearently. Knowing the girl, I can quite believe it. She was a pretty screwed up chick and that was before this particular incident. Regardless of what the girl wanted, I find the entire situation quite distasteful and degrading to her and the men whether they and/or she realise it or not.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-26-2004
Tue, 08-15-2006 - 9:42am

"Sorry, it wasn't 40 men, it was about half a dozen 40year old men with that sixteen year old."

Sorry, Westie....that I read that incorrectly...

"And they were definitely not raping her. It was her "idea" appearently. Knowing the girl, "I can quite believe it. She was a pretty screwed up chick and that was before this particular incident."

When you specifically said that she was "drunk" I interpreted that to mean "not cognizant enough to give consent." I would think that most 16 year olds would be unable to handle too much liquor and may not even know what is happening to them (control how much they are ingesting). Which leads me to the next question: What is the legal age for alcohol consumption where this happened? Here it's 21. What would be the outcome? If six 40 year old men, know that a 16 year old is not suppose to be drinking, but she gives consent while drunk;, how does the law handle it?

"Regardless of what the girl wanted, I find the entire situation quite distasteful and degrading to her and the men whether they and/or she realise it or not."

That's exactly what I was getting at. Whether or not she was drunk, what possesses six men to take advantage of a sixteen year old (someone old enough to be their daughter)? In fact, any girl who would act this way is most obviously troubled, no? Which is why I wondered why there wasn't any "compassion" or "empathy" that kicked in -- or is it just pure selfishness? It's like seeing a wounded puppy--you wouldn't throw salt on their wound would you? Wouldn't you'd do what you could to help relieve its' misery? Any person with an ounce of compassion would, I'd think. That's the part that has me confused.

You said you knew the girl. What exactly did you know of her circumstances?




Edited 8/15/2006 5:20 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein )
iVillage Member
Registered: 10-18-2001
Tue, 08-15-2006 - 3:26pm

>>What would be the outcome? If six 40 year old men, know that a 16 year old is not suppose to be drinking, but she gives consent while drunk;, how does the law handle it?<<

18yo is the legal drinking age here. It was at a "private" party one weekend. I'm not sure how the law would handle it - it would certainly take a very dim view of it but as the girl herself wasn't complaining who is to say what the outcome of a legal challenge would have been? Regardless of her consent I wouldn't have wanted to be one of those men if it had ended up in court for some reason.

>>In fact, any girl who would act this way is most obviously troubled, no?<<
I would agree absolutely. But one could probably argue that these men themselves were "troubled" and had had troubled lives and thus that's the reason they acted the way that they did. The girl herself? From a middleclass normal family - a mother, a father with a good whitecollar job, a younger brother, a house with a white picket fence. No obvious problems in the household. A small town, hanging out the wrong types I suppose, a twisted sense of teenage rebelliousness perhaps. She was quite the handful.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-26-2004
Tue, 08-15-2006 - 4:17pm

"But one could probably argue that these men themselves were "troubled" and had had troubled lives and thus that's the reason they acted the way that they did."

Obviously....I just thought that most 40 year-old men wouldn't have to dig that far down to have compassion in this type of situation...particularly involving a drunk child. Six men at one house party, huh?

....I'm assuming there were other bystanders watching this all happen?




Edited 8/15/2006 4:57 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein )
Avatar for gigi_1000
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 08-15-2006 - 4:28pm
I would find it hard to believe that any 40 year-old man could stand by a watch a 16 year old girl get used for sex without, at least saying something to attempt to stop it.
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-26-2004
Tue, 08-15-2006 - 4:37pm

You and I both Gigi (and I revised my previous post, posing the same question).

That's what I'm trying to figure out.....why not one man stopped it...not even a bystander, and how so many men could be "troubled."

Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein )
iVillage Member
Registered: 11-26-2004
Tue, 08-15-2006 - 6:02pm

"There are a LOT of men out there that thoroughly enjoy seeing women humilated during sex - often under the mistaken impression that that's how sex and being a man should work."

....and just to keep the same train of thought: I kind of thought that you were referencing the men who fell into the above category; as if you were saying that they were perfectly normal functioning men, with just this one misconception. What I asked you originally, is HOW do you think that they got that impression in the first place. (You also said a "LOT" of men), so I'm thinking that it's fairly common.

Imagination is more important than knowledge." (Albert Einstein )
Avatar for katmandoo2001
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Tue, 08-15-2006 - 6:03pm

I've been reading bits and pieces of a study being done in an attempt to figure out why men seem to sexualize women's reactions. The purpose of the study was to help educators, etc. learn how to curb sexual aggression and crime against women.

Now, we've all met men who seem to believe that EVERY woman they meet is coming on to them, as in statements like "Yeah, she wants me" in response to a seemingly disinterested woman. I always laughed it off as a joke or attributed it to male arrogance or bravado. But this study seems to point to the fact that many men can't seem to discern real sexual interest from disinterest or mere friendliness often leading to unwanted advances or worse.

I'll have to try and locate the study again and post a link. I believe it was on MSN.

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