Why are facials degrading?
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Why are facials degrading?
| Sun, 08-06-2006 - 8:28pm |
I have seen many posts that describe facials as degrading to a woman. Why is that? I've always asked a partner if I could cum on her body before I did it, and wouldn't do it without permission. What is it, though, that makes a facial particularly objectionable? I don't see where it's any more degrading than cumming in her mouth, or on her breasts, etc.

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Well, from one "highly sexual" woman to another, I think Rice is WAY off the mark.
Unfortunately for him, he seems to think that there is only ONE sex from which to gauge sexual behavior and desire. I think his expectations are skewed and that's his problem.
You simply cannot judge female sexuality using male sexuality as the standard. That's just dumb and I've told him that before.
My DH has never exhibited the out of control, thought blurring sexual lust that would explain this type of aggressive behavior toward women. And thankfully, I don't know any men that have.
"My DH has never exhibited the out of control, thought blurring sexual lust that would explain this type of aggressive behavior toward women. And thankfully, I don't know any men that have."
Well....I haven't seen the aggressive part personally, but I have seen the what seemed like "out-of-control" lust part. I often describe having sex with young men (and this includes my DH) as having sex as though there were a fire in the next room. It wasn't an overt "rushing" per se, but I could sense the antsiness of the men. It almost seemed as though they were possessed.... ;-) I myself do experience lust of a great magnitude, but I was just thinking from things that I've read on the boards over the years, that it may be possible that what I am experiencing may be just a fraction of what men experience.
I understand that men on average have about ten times the amount of testosterone than women do; and I have read on the the-clitoris.com (although I have tried to search the net for some further info on this...to no avail, which questions it's validity) that even though women have less than men, that our bodies are highly sensitive to the amount we do have. I just assumed that being a woman with a high sex-drive, that what I feel, must be comparable to what they might feel. But still, everything I've read on these boards over the years, from many men is beginning to sink in. Maybe it's not so....
I'm not excusing any behavior, just trying to understand it. Maybe some men just have excessive amounts which cause them to become irrational and apathetic. I was just pondering.....and thinking out loud.... ;-)
Edited 8/16/2006 7:30 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
"I've always assumed that being sexually disappointed and/or frustrated was simply part of being a man. You know, like it just comes with the equipment,"
Rice, that's what I was alluding to in my last post about the underlying "antsiness" of young men. As a result, it's usually the women who are sexually disappointed and/or frustrated and we simply assumed that it was a part of being a woman. Not having an orgasm was something that most women are used to.
I know from my own experiences and those of the women that I have discussed this with, that orgasms weren't even in the picture for many of us. It just was not feasible. You have to remember the times (and I can only imagine that it was worse in previous generations). The clitoris was just making it's debut.
It was believed that women should orgasm from intercourse alone. If you have ever been with a man (which I suppose you haven't), you would understand that there is simply NOT enough time even if a woman is fully aroused (through mental stimulation). Additioanlly, without any simulataneous clitorial stimulation it would be very difficult at best even for a normally sexually responsive woman. Most men do not last during intercourse--the average is between 3 and 5 minutes (and my own experiences has confirmed this). It isn't until a man ages that he eventually lasts longer. It's very difficult trying to outdo the male orgasm....it's nearly impossible, particuarly without any clitoral stimulation. And the fact that you know you only have a few minutes also puts a damper on it (you're trying to rush and you're worried).
It wasn't as though sex was something that you "enjoyed" but something to bring a means to an end....and his orgasm ran the show, so-to-speak. It was definitely "goal" oriented. This probably explains why so many women faked orgasms (and still do). If we didn't we were considered "frigid" and/or he would feel bad. So we did what we thought was best. However, do not kid yourself, it was very frustrating and sexually disappointing. You have no idea what it's like to just be getting started or to be so sexually aroused, only to have it end within a few minutes. Men would wonder why women never seem satiated....because they weren't.
It was unheard of for a woman to touch her clitoris during intercourse; men thought that fingering a woman was just inserting a finger inside of her; and oral wasn't something that most "men" did (and porn reflected all of this as well) Imagine what it feels like for your clitoris to be screaming for stimulation only to be bypassed totally? Imagine what it would be like if only the lower part of your shaft were being stimulated or your scrotum alone? That's what it was like. You often complain that women neglected men with respect to foreplay and it's frustrating to hear, because if anything, I think the reality was very much the opposite. Women not only gave men oral and manual as a stand-alone activiity (to orgasm), but as foreplay as well, even though men through the very design of the penis have little problem achieving orgasm through intercourse alone. In fact, even though they (women) were well aware that the stimulation that they were providing would "shorten" the amount of time before he would orgasm during intercourse (if he didn't from oral or manual first), women still peformed it. I know for a fact that many women of my generation and of past, did without while providing eagerly for the men. It's very frustrating when I hear about your experiences, when I know for a fact that it was the exact opposite for the majority of women. You yourself have said that you received "oral" from women. Well....you weren't alone. There were slews of women who provided unsolicited BJ's who thought it was an act of "giving" but never saw the men again, never mind could she expect any such treatment in return.
Things have progressed in the past 35 years thankfully. Please note that I am not blaming men for any of this, as they were just as ignorant of women's bodies as many women themselves were. But still, you persist that "men" are the *only* victims of sexual deprivation and frustration. Just think about this Rice....think back since the beginning of the birth of humans on this earth. If "intercourse" (just for argument's sake let's pretend that there was no such thing as oral, manual or anal between the sexes) was the basic sexual act between men and women and the average man climaxed between 3 - 5 minutes....who exactly do you think was the more deprived and frustrated sex?
"Anyway, what was it about this particular post that prompted that response?"
I know you were asking Kat, but I think it was your usual digs at women's sexuality --Your isn't "horny woman" an oxymoron among the other statements made that the only way a woman would be interested in sex is if she had low self-esteem, etc.
What I do not understand Rice, is that you have mentioned that you have "received" BJ's from several women/girls when you were younger and I'm going to assume that your wife was sexual at one time (and I'm curious as to when that all changed). I'm not sure how many women you had sex with altogether (of which I'm also curious), so it's hard to see what you base your views on. I'd like to explore this further with you, so that we can bring about "understanding" rather than go on with all of this guessing as to where you're coming from and these underlying digs.
I'm not even sure that any of my thoughts here were sequential....it became long-winded, but I think that this is something that you should get off your chest nonetheless....do you agree? I think it would be very theraputic....and may serve some good for all in the long run. ;-) I think it's time we try and move past all of it.....
Edited 8/17/2006 3:25 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
This is a fascinating discussion...
Personally, and from what I've heard and read, libido varies from individual to individual and has little to do with gender, though men do peak much earlier than women. I've always initiated sex more often than the guy in any relationship I've been in. I think about it more than a few times every day...I think it's safe to say that for my age group I've got the same sex drive as a guy the same age who has a healthy sex drive.
Age certainly makes a difference, and since testosterone is not only responsible for sex drive in men, but aggressive impulses, I think that for some guys the line blurs between sex and aggression. The women I know who've been raped or had close calls were generally attacked by younger men, which makes sense in regards to testosterone peaking around 18-20. I either knew someone who was attacked, or knew someone who knew someone who was attacked--and I was, myself--at some point during those early adulthood years.
Edited 8/17/2006 8:08 pm ET by batgirl5
Well, your post at least explains one of the reasons behind one of the main causes of male sexual frustration, lack of sex. Specifically, lack of sexual opportunities due to the lack of interest in sex by women. If it's as bad as you describe, why should they be interested in sex? After all, what's in it for them, LOL?
Although it would seem that the major source of sexual frustration among men is a lack of quantity and among women a lack of quality, men have frustrations based upon quality issues as well. A big complaint that I had, and was shared by many of my friends, is the refusal of many women to have anything to do with a man's primary erogenous zone, his penis. Why is it that women are so reluctant to touch a man's penis? Do they think it's gross and disgusting? I should have realized that it was going to be a problem the first time I put a woman's hand on my penis and she said that she thought she was going to throw up, but I didn't expect that it wouldn't get any better as I got older. I know that you’re supposed to ask for what you want, but it really makes a guy feel pathetic and juvenile to have a ask a woman to “please touch my weenie.” Besides, a big part of the thrill, I’m guessing, is not just the tactile pleasure that comes from her touch, but the fact that she actually WANTS to touch it. It’s not limited to when we’re having sex either. One of the more erotic things that I’ve seen in movies and on TV is when a couple is making out and the woman begin caressing his crotch through his clothes, getting him erect, and then fondling his erection. I always thought that that would be a real turn-on, but I guess that will have to remain another of my unfulfilled fantasies.
Another complaint that I had, and that I’ve heard from others, is the requirement that many women have that a man must do all the work when it comes to sex. We have to do the initiating; we have to do all the foreplay; we have to get them off; and then we have to get ourselves off. I realize that’s probably the way it’s supposed to be most of the time, but all the freaking time? It would be nice to occasionally have a woman who takes some initiative, shows some enthusiasm, and is an active participant. Is that too much to ask for, at least once and a while? I’ll grant you that a lot of men are lazy or lack confidence when it comes to foreplay. I know that, although I was very eager to please, at least in the beginning, I never developed any confidence that I was doing the right things, or that I was even have any effect at all. I’m sure that this lack of confidence caused me to stop too soon, or to not try enough things, and eventually give up. Still, despite men’s shortcomings at foreplay, does that excuse women from considering foreplay to strictly be ‘men’s work’? Some reciprocity, or at least a little encouragement and coaching would go a long way toward alleviating the deficiencies that seem to be your biggest complaint about men and sex.
Over the years, reading all the posts by women here on iVillage, I’ve come to realize that there were a couple of assumptions about women that I made when I was young and single that probably did not serve me well. The first, again made based upon what I had been told by my more experienced friends, as well as from my own experiences, was that women, as a rule, weren’t all that interested in having sex, at least not with me. You don’t have to be asked “What kind of girl do you thing I am?” too many times to come to that conclusion. The other assumption was that women were offended and put off by men who acted like they wanted to have sex with them, and considered them to be jerks. Not wanting to be considered a jerk, and assuming that there was little chance of success anyway, I always did my best to hide the fact that I was physically attracted to any woman.
Looking over those assumptions, it’s a wonder I got laid at all, LOL. I guess there were times that my physical desires overwhelmed my defense mechanisms and I didn’t always end up being called a jerk. I will say that the times it happened it was never planned and it always came as complete surprise to me, which also made it easy for me to write it off as a fluke. Still, I probably should have been more willing to risk being thought a jerk and give in to my desires. Who knows what would have happened? One incident in particular comes to mind. When I was in graduate school and home for the holidays I ran into a young woman I had known in high school. We had dated in high school and college and, although I was very attracted to her, I don’t think that I ever kissed her. Anyway, she seem happy to see me and invited me to have dinner at her apartment. All through the evening I felt the same attraction that I had had before and really wanted to kiss her, but I was more concerned that, by doing so, I would have misconstrued her intentions, upset her, and would have ruined a wonderful evening. The next time I saw her was more than 25 years later when I ran into her and her husband at a reunion. I though about asking her what she would have done if I had made a pass that long ago evening, but I never got the chance. I guess that’s why it seems that we sometimes regret the things we didn’t do more than the things that we did, simply because we’ll never know what might have happened.
I don't have too much time now to go over and respond to most of your post (which I will later on), but I just wanted to get this query out to you to think about in the meantime....
Do you think that "quantity" (or lack of for men), and some of the things that women said like: "What kind of girl do you think I am?" had anything to do with how men were reared as opposed to women? Do you not think that girls/women were concerned about being a "good girl" as opposed to a "bad girl (which was ) something that women had to consider and men did not? In the same way that you "felt" that women would "think" ill of you if you made a move (which controlled what you truly desired), do you not think that the same could have been controlling women's desires?
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