Why are facials degrading?
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Why are facials degrading?
| Sun, 08-06-2006 - 8:28pm |
I have seen many posts that describe facials as degrading to a woman. Why is that? I've always asked a partner if I could cum on her body before I did it, and wouldn't do it without permission. What is it, though, that makes a facial particularly objectionable? I don't see where it's any more degrading than cumming in her mouth, or on her breasts, etc.

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"Well, your post at least explains one of the reasons behind one of the main causes of male sexual frustration, lack of sex. Specifically, lack of sexual opportunities due to the lack of interest in sex by women. If it's as bad as you describe, why should they be interested in sex? After all, what's in it for them, LOL?"
tee hee....yes, you would think that women would have given up on sex eons ago. There was a thread on here not too long ago where it was asked if men would even bother with sex if there were no orgasms (even though the sex felt good), and I think the consensus was "no"....so, just like childbirth...thankfully it's the women who take on the task....otherwise, our species would have diminished long ago... ;-)
"Although it would seem that the major source of sexual frustration among men is a lack of quantity and among women a lack of quality, men have frustrations based upon quality issues as well. A big complaint that I had, and was shared by many of my friends, is the refusal of many women to have anything to do with a man's primary erogenous zone, his penis. Why is it that women are so reluctant to touch a man's penis? Do they think it's gross and disgusting? I should have realized that it was going to be a problem the first time I put a woman's hand on my penis and she said that she thought she was going to throw up, but I didn't expect that it wouldn't get any better as I got older. I know that you’re supposed to ask for what you want, but it really makes a guy feel pathetic and juvenile to have a ask a woman to “please touch my weenie.” Besides, a big part of the thrill, I���m guessing, is not just the tactile pleasure that comes from her touch, but the fact that she actually WANTS to touch it. It’s not limited to when we’re having sex either. One of the more erotic things that I’ve seen in movies and on TV is when a couple is making out and the woman begin caressing his crotch through his clothes, getting him erect, and then fondling his erection. I always thought that that would be a real turn-on, but I guess that will have to remain another of my unfulfilled fantasies."
Most of the guys you know lamented as well? So different from what the women I know lamented about. It was them who did all of the touching, oral and most of the foreplay....as I said, even if they knew that there was nothing in it for them; that included his ejaculating even before intercourse (yes, even rubbing him through his clothing). You're in Texas, right? We're close in age I believe as well, but I grew up in NY, so I'm wondering why there's such a difference.
"Another complaint that I had, and that I’ve heard from others, is the requirement that many women have that a man must do all the work when it comes to sex. We have to do the initiating; we have to do all the foreplay; we have to get them off; and then we have to get ourselves off. I realize that’s probably the way it’s supposed to be most of the time, but all the freaking time? It would be nice to occasionally have a woman who takes some initiative, shows some enthusiasm, and is an active participant. Is that too much to ask for, at least once and a while? I’ll grant you that a lot of men are lazy or lack confidence when it comes to foreplay. I know that, although I was very eager to please, at least in the beginning, I never developed any confidence that I was doing the right things, or that I was even have any effect at all. I’m sure that this lack of confidence caused me to stop too soon, or to not try enough things, and eventually give up. Still, despite men’s shortcomings at foreplay, does that excuse women from considering foreplay to strictly be ‘men’s work’? Some reciprocity, or at least a little encouragement and coaching would go a long way toward alleviating the deficiencies that seem to be your biggest complaint about men and sex."
As I said, Rice, if anything, it was the opposite. It was women who did all of the work with no reciprocation. Yes, things have changed and now women are getting theirs, but I do not know of too many women who have stopped giving oral, manual and foreplay to their men just because they now receive it. Most of the women that I know, love sex and are always eager to please and are enthusiastic. The ones who don't are either with selfish men (inside and out of the bedroom), or are having problems in their relationship overall. Even my husband's friends and most of the men I know don't have the "usual" complaints. If anything, it's the opposite....most of the women want sex more than the men.
How do you think your sons are faring? As far as I can tell....porn has done wonders....girls/women actually think they have to live up to porn-star standards in order to please men. We have women receving facials and anal and pretending to be bi-sexual on the first sexual encounter...we even have 13 year-old girls engaging in fellatio trains (many thank Clinton for his statement that oral sex isn't really sex). If anything, I would think that we have more experience out there due to more exposure than ever (porn in our homes via the internet).
I do not think that foreplay is either men's or women's work...I agree with you there. I can't imagine a woman out and outright telling you that she was going to throw up just from touching your penis. How stupid is that? What did that tell you about her? She was inexperienced and immature most likely. Why would a penis be anything more than her own vagina is? I'm going to assume that you were young Rice when that happened, and I from what you said, this was pretty much your experience throughout your life? What kind of penis do you have? (j/k ;-))
Oh, and as far as "telling" a woman....most women would tell you that men aren't usually "shy" about what they want. They don't usually use words though....they use subtle movements like putting a hand on your head and guiding it, or taking your hand and directing it. ;-) Most women I think, on the other hand, were more like you.... Those were the days though....when sex wasn't really discussed. Today, things are different....
"Over the years, reading all the posts by women here on iVillage, I’ve come to realize that there were a couple of assumptions about women that I made when I was young and single that probably did not serve me well. The first, again made based upon what I had been told by my more experienced friends, as well as from my own experiences, was that women, as a rule, weren’t all that interested in having sex, at least not with me. You don’t have to be asked “What kind of girl do you thing I am?” too many times to come to that conclusion. The other assumption was that women were offended and put off by men who acted like they wanted to have sex with them, and considered them to be jerks. Not wanting to be considered a jerk, and assuming that there was little chance of success anyway, I always did my best to hide the fact that I was physically attracted to any woman."
No, Rice, you made a wrong assumption. Women were not put off by men who wanted to have sex with them, just men who ONLY wanted to have sex with them. Think about it. Women weren't "permitted" (or else they'd be considered sluts) to ONLY have sex, so for a man to suggest that or desire that, was insulting to her. So, if a woman was saying: "What kind of girl do you think I am?" it most likely had nothing to do with whether or not she desired to have sex with you (although, yes, she may not have been attracted to you), she may have been offended because, by that very statement, your suggested she's a slut. This was just the way it was. Women had to be the gatekeepers, the virtuous ones, not think about sex, and had to worry about pregnancy (why men didn't, still confuses me). Your very advances were an insult to her....but wanting to have sex with you most likely had nothing to do with it...
"Looking over those assumptions, it’s a wonder I got laid at all, LOL. I guess there were times that my physical desires overwhelmed my defense mechanisms and I didn’t always end up being called a jerk. I will say that the times it happened it was never planned and it always came as complete surprise to me, which also made it easy for me to write it off as a fluke. Still, I probably should have been more willing to risk being thought a jerk and give in to my desires. Who knows what would have happened? One incident in particular comes to mind. When I was in graduate school and home for the holidays I ran into a young woman I had known in high school. We had dated in high school and college and, although I was very attracted to her, I don’t think that I ever kissed her. Anyway, she seem happy to see me and invited me to have dinner at her apartment. All through the evening I felt the same attraction that I had had before and really wanted to kiss her, but I was more concerned that, by doing so, I would have misconstrued her intentions, upset her, and would have ruined a wonderful evening. The next time I saw her was more than 25 years later when I ran into her and her husband at a reunion. I though about asking her what she would have done if I had made a pass that long ago evening, but I never got the chance. I guess that’s why it seems that we sometimes regret the things we didn’t do more than the things that we did, simply because we’ll never know what might have happened."
Yes, Rice, you had little faith in women. You assumed that if you kissed her, that you would have ruined the evening. As though she would have disowned you or something. What is the worst that could have happened? She would have said, "I'm not interested" in so many words. Any mature person knows that at any time there may be someone who is crushing on us. Why would anyone be upset for someone making misconstrued advances based on those feelings? You were your own worst enemy, Rice. You came up with all of these concocted scenarios due to your own insecurities. Women do not bite, Rice. Many of us are very compassionate and understanding. You knew her, and liked her--surely she wouldn't have reacted as badly as you imagined. All it would have taken was a ten second maneuver for you to have had your answer.
Why are you rueful, though? You met your wife didn't you? Perhaps had you kissed that woman, you never would have met her and you never would have known your sons. You know, Rice, some things happen for a reason....
Anyhow, do you still think that most women are not very sexual Rice? Do you truly believe it?
Edited 8/20/2006 12:45 am ET by rain_dancer_iam
You might have had bad experiences with women you were with, but please don't assume from your experience that all women are the way you describe.
"I don't consider foreplay on either of us *work*, I consider it fun and exciting."
Absolutely, Tish. In fact, my husband and I consider all of it "foreplay." We don't have a routine that leads us up to "intercourse" (the happy ending)....we just go with the flow. We never know where we are going to end up (maybe with intercourse, maybe not)...we just have MUTUAL fun, excitement and pleasure. Sex is not about orgasms, it's about lust, and igniting all of the five senses. It's about sharing your bodies and offering them up to one another. I have this theory....you know how couples after being together for so long start to look like one another? Well...it's probably because of all of years of the bodily fluids they've swapped. ;-) tee hee
Anyhow....I have never, ever considered foreplay "work" even if I was the only one doing it. I do it not just because my husband loves it, but because I absolutely love doing it. It is a form of my own foreplay. I get aroused by touching, tasting, seeing, smelling and listening to my husband. I can't imagine a sex life not being able to.
When I hear *work* I think *chore* *drugery* *something I have to do.* Honestly, I wouldn't want any man to do anything that he didn't enjoy and desire to do. You can keep it! Don't do me any favors.
Edited 8/20/2006 10:45 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
Despite how it may seem to the women here, I don't think that all women are asexual. Logic would dictate that SOME women must have sexual feelings, since they can't be making up ALL the images of sexual women in the movies, on TV, and in magazines. So when I talk about 'horny woman' being a oxymoron, along with 'female libido', I'm joking, at least somewhat. It's just that since I've never been with a woman who showed any signs of having an active libido, and I've definitely never been with, or around, a woman who acted like she was horny, it's difficult to understand what that must be like, and to believe that there could possibly be very many such women. Now, it is entirely possible that some of them actually had libidos, but they were hiding that fact. It’s just that I’ve never been with a woman who initiated sex, asked me for sex, told me that she wanted to have sex, or even complained about not having sex, so you can see, I have a tendency to react to stories of such behavior with skepticism.
We must definitely be living on different planets, because I've never heard of a woman doing all the work (for lack of a better word) and never expecting anything back. In fact, I haven't much about women doing anything at all but expecting to made love to with nothing expected of them. Do you think that we could trade some of the women on your planet for some of the women on mine? Sort of like a cultural exchange program.
With respect to the "What kind of girl do you think I am?" girls, I wasn't even trying to have sex with either of them, despite what they, and you, may have assumed. I was just sending out a scouting party to try to ascertain the location of the frontier. In one case I just placed my hand on her breast (over her clothes) while with the other I placed a hand between her knees and had begun moving up the inside of her thigh. Although both were new, uncharted territories for me at the time, the reactions still caught me off guard and caused me to reconsider using similar tactics again for a long time. You mentioned guys who think that 'no' really means 'yes', while I was conditioned to think that 'yes' really meant 'no'. I think that probably didn’t serve me well either.
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"It’s just that I’ve never been with a woman who initiated sex, asked me for sex, told me that she wanted to have sex, or even complained about not having sex, so you can see, I have a tendency to react to stories of such behavior with skepticism."
But you still think that "most" women are asexual. Rice, have you ever thought that maybe it was the way many women were reared? The "What kind of girl do you think I am?" speaks wonders about what they've been told about sex. Everything was about how "bad" it is -- about how "dirty" it is. Also, many women growing up, grow up believing that their vaginas are "dirty" because of things that they hear or from their own insecurities. And what about birth control? Back in our day, it was relatively new....what was there like one brand? Do you have any idea what birth control can do to a woman's libido? Even still, today, with all that is available and with modern technology, many women would have to go through enormous steps to find one that doesn't interfere with her libido. Many women are just so busy with life that they often may not pay attention or even notice that their libido is basically dead, nevermind back when...when there wasn't even a connection made. These are only a few explanations, Rice; there are many, many more. What you are failing to *see* and is what I have been trying to convey, is that boys and men are not reared with the same social constraints that girls and women are, so they are "free" to express their sexuality.
What I'm trying to say, is that the playing field is not even to begin with, but that doesn't necessarily translate to "women are not sexual." You're looking at the results, without looking at the cause. Just look at it on a simple level. How many women would have admitted to masturbating 40 years ago as opposed to how many men would have? How about today? Even still many women would never admit to it...it's because they have been brainwashed to believe that "girls" don't do that only "boys" do. It's more complicated than that; but just to give you an idea.
Your constant bashing of women's sexuality is no different than a woman whose every post would contain something to the effect of: "Most men are perverts." Would you not get offended by that?
It may be that some women were consciously hiding their libido; it may be that some of them were acting subconsciously as a result of being brainwashed; it may be that their libidos were affected by birth control; it may have even have been a simple fear of pregnancy; etc. The point is, that there were probable logical explanations other than the simplistic "they are just biologically not sexual." Conditioning is a very powerful mechanism. You'd have to completely even-up the field before you can make any such sweeping statements about women's sexuality.
"With respect to the "What kind of girl do you think I am?" girls, I wasn't even trying to have sex with either of them, despite what they, and you, may have assumed. I was just sending out a scouting party to try to ascertain the location of the frontier. In one case I just placed my hand on her breast (over her clothes) while with the other I placed a hand between her knees and had begun moving up the inside of her thigh. Although both were new, uncharted territories for me at the time, the reactions still caught me off guard and caused me to reconsider using similar tactics again for a long time. You mentioned guys who think that 'no' really means 'yes', while I was conditioned to think that 'yes' really meant 'no'. I think that probably didn’t serve me well either."
What do you mean that you weren't trying to have sex with any of them? What exactly is fingering a woman? I'd say that it was third base and that any woman could be looked "down" upon for allowing a man to finger her. Allowing a man to cop a feel of a breast wouldn't be as detrimental. Again, Rice, if a woman said that to you, it wasn't because she wasn't horny, it was because of her conditioning. She had to "think" about a lot of repercussions, that you didn't have to consider as a man. You are simply drawing conclusions based on how YOU were reared, not on how she was. You are standing within the frame trying to see the big picture.
Rice, I'm sure that you wouldn't appreciate it if a woman (through her experiences) came on here and stated that "all men are just walking di*cks and only want women for sex." You and I know that's not true....men are much more complex than that. It's insulting to men, period.
Nice talking with you Rice. I like to get an indepth look at "why" people make the comments they do....and hopefully you may *understand* more why the women make the comments they do in response to you. You feel what you feel....you believe what you believe. You are on a sex board, though....maybe if you visited a "celibacy" board, they may actually agree with you. ;-)
Edited 8/21/2006 2:07 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
How is saying women don't seem to be very sexual, for whatever reason, the same as saying that all men are perverts? Indeed, why is saying that I haven't had any personal experience with women being sexual insulting to women at all?
BTW, Did you ever use the "What kind of girl do you think I am?" line? If not, how did you tell boys that they had gone too far? In the situation I described, I really didn't have any expectation of getting into her panties. She actually was sitting on my lap, so it would have been difficult, if possible at all. All I was hoping for was maybe a little inner thigh stroking, and maybe even some outside the panties touching of the Promised Land. If she had simply said "No" or "Stop" or "Please don't", I would have understood. Instead she responded in a way that implied that my desire for her and to touch her body was implicitly disrespectful to her, something that reinforced an assumption that you said was flawed. I can say that if I had ever found a woman who wanted to feel me up, I doubt that I would have felt she didn't respect me, or even cared. LOL.
"How is saying women don't seem to be very sexual, for whatever reason, the same as saying that all men are perverts? Indeed, why is saying that I haven't had any personal experience with women being sexual insulting to women at all?"
Rice, the comparison was simply to show that just because it may "seem" that way to you doesn't make it fact; which is what you imply. As I said, a woman who would come on here and constantly spew "All men are perverts" because of her experiences I would think would be somewhat insulting to men, and I would probably be having this same convo with her. ;-)
"BTW, Did you ever use the "What kind of girl do you think I am?" line? If not, how did you tell boys that they had gone too far? In the situation I described, I really didn't have any expectation of getting into her panties. She actually was sitting on my lap, so it would have been difficult, if possible at all. All I was hoping for was maybe a little inner thigh stroking, and maybe even some outside the panties touching of the Promised Land."
Yes, Rice, as a girl this was a pretty standard line, as I said, it was ingrained into girls that it was insulting if a boy tried anything because....well....you were not suppose to allow it.
What you are missing is that any girl who woulld allow a boy to feel her "promised land" would be considered a slut. It would be the same calibur as having sex basically.
"If she had simply said "No" or "Stop" or "Please don't", I would have understood. Instead she responded in a way that implied that my desire for her and to touch her body was implicitly disrespectful to her, something that reinforced an assumption that you said was flawed. I can say that if I had ever found a woman who wanted to feel me up, I doubt that I would have felt she didn't respect me, or even cared. LOL."
Yes, Rice, because you are a man, you had that privilege, imagine if by allowing a woman to feel you up, you became "damaged goods" and that reputation would hinder any chances with any possible future relationships with other women?
You missed the point, Rice. I was simply trying to show you that just because a woman said "No" does not mean that her body wasn't desiring to say "Yes." It most likely had nothing to do with how horny she was.
Incidentally, I always appreciated a guy who "whispered" in my ear what he wanted to do before actually trying it....sort of a heads up. ;-)
Rice, I only responded to you because of your comments that YOU (or men) were the more frustrated and sexually deprived sex....I just thought that you should know, that you weren't... tee hee
"If no boy had tried to touch you below the waist, would that have been better? Then you wouldn't have to lay any guilt trips on boys by using the "What kind of girl do you think I am?" line. What if no man ever touched you below the waist?"
Again, you are looking at this only from YOUR perspective, as though YOU (MEN) were the ONLY victims (being made to feel guilty). Do you think that girls enjoyed saying that? Do you think that girls didn't want to have sex? Do you think that girls enjoyed having to always be the gatekeepers and the one's to have to stop the groping hands? The only reason girls said that was because they couldn't understand "WHY" he was making a move at all? Not because she didn't understand that he wanted to have sex (as she probably did), but because she saw his actions as being selfish. Of course, the times we are talking about was in the 60's and 70's when things were just beginning to change for women....they were tired of being the gatekeepers... ;-) So, no, men shouldn't have felt guilty for their sexual feelings, just for acting on them (when he knew that it wasn't in her best interest)--don't confuse the two.
"I seem to remember that a woman posted here recently complaining about her boyfriend never touching here below the waist and, for some reason, that seems to have bothered her."
Well...in an established relationship today, there's usually sex, and in that case, there is usually foreplay, which includes manual, so it's understandable why she was complaining.
"When I read her post, all I could think was "Welcome to my world." For most men, that's the way it is for most of their lives. Imagine a cantaloupe in a grocery store and no one ever picks it up to touch and squeeze it to see how firm it was. I would think that such a cantaloupe would be considered 'damaged goods' as much as the cantaloupes that had been handled too much, don't you think? ;-)"
Again, "Welcome to YOUR world" is correct, not the "For MOST men, that's the way it is for most of their lives" part. Again, you are making a statement that you cannot state as a fact, which is where you go awry. As I stated, many women do love and enjoy touching, caressing and manually stimulating (even to orgasm) the men in their lives penises. And I know plenty of women who have been with men (like the poster you mentioned), who do not get touched manually or orally either--it works both ways. I just do not think that it's as common as your portrayal that most women do not touch men's penises. Maybe the men on here could give their accounts so that we can get a few more opinions.
Well...if the cantelope that was being manhandled is now all lumpy or smushed (damaged), I would imagine it wouldn't be too appetizing let alone edible; so the untouched one may be the better choice.... Besides, Rice, everybody knows that the best way to test for a cantelope's ripeness is by smelling it... ;-)
Edited 8/23/2006 11:49 pm ET by rain_dancer_iam
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