Have we "ruined things" for men?

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-21-2005
Have we "ruined things" for men?
16
Tue, 08-08-2006 - 11:31am

I have also

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iVillage Member
Registered: 05-31-2005

This is a great topic, Stacey!


I feel that we as women have put too many unspoken rules on men and when they don't follow them, we are very quick to "next" them. Just so everyone understands where I'm coming from, I'm an old-school type of woman. I don't believe in pursuing men and I don't believe in initiating contact. However, I do believe that you have to let a man know you're interested and give him a bit of space in which to interact.


I see nothing wrong with calling a man first (and I've done it though I've been nervous) nor do I think it's wrong to initiate conversation at a bar/dance/anywhere with a guy and then let him take the lead.


I also think that as we get older we have too many restrictions placed on the relationship and therefore can't find what we're looking for because our desires have become a laundry list rather than a guide. He must be X'X" tall with X eyes and X hair and X education and X salary and X vocabulary and X hobbies and X interests and we just keep Xing ourselves out of a chance. What's really ironic to me is how many women who have all these "must haves" are still alone. Don't get me wrong here... In no way am I saying that if you have a guy who has certain traits that are unhealthy that you should get into something with him. But let's say one of your "dealbreakers" is that a guy must read. If you meet a guy that has everything else, why not go out on a few dates and see what comes of it? See if other things fit while keeping your head together.


Why do we tend to blame men for all the wrongs of dating? I think it's time that women take responsibility for their parts in waiting around, hoping for a guy to talk to them or to make the first move. While I don't think a woman should pursue a man to the point of not letting him take initiative, I do believe there are suttle ways to let a guy know we're interested.


Finally, I think we need to stop comparing every guy to a standard shopping list of men and start looking for the good qualities in men, even if those qualities aren't what we were expecting at first. To me it's as simple as choosing whether or not you want to find someone. If you want to find someone then I think it's important to be realistic and realize that not everyone is going to have 100% or even 90% of what you want. Choose the percentage that's important to you and then go from there...


iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003

I hope you don't mind a man's response to this discussion. I don't think women have "ruined things" at all, but it has become more confusing and complex for men. I firmly believe that a great relationship is based on being equality-based and mutually-beneficial. That relationship objective can be a difficult one to achieve.

I'll center my comments around two main themes - He's Just Not That Into and What does equality really mean these days?

The book He's Just Not That Into You has a useful presence. I haven't read it, but the way I understand it is - it encourages review of existing relationships, excuses and how it *may* suggest that a man isn't into you. However, what I see more and more is a vastly different approach to implementation.

Many women are taking the Hes Just Not That Into You concept and using it to create secret expectations (hoops) in which a man is obligated to perform perfectly to establish proof that he IS Into You. This happens from the very first date. If a man doesn't prove himself in accordance to these secret expectations, then women complain, call us names (jerk & a-hole being the 2 most popular) and sometimes even falsely accuse us of a serious thing. Frankly, men are sick and tired of being treated like that. We're aren't a pet dog that is obligated to jump through fire burning hoops just because you say so. We can't read minds and just know what you want, when you want, but we sure do pay the price when a woman makes us wrong for not delivering on her secret expectation.

The concept of equality between genders is all over the map. It is mandatory in the workplace and many other aspects of life. However, in relationships it can be virtually non-existent. It leads many men to believe that equality really only exists for a woman when there is benefit to be gained. As men, we need to quickly learn each woman's personal definition of equality and how it will relate to our life structure, goals and priorities.

I personally have made the choice to be proactive in response to these issues. I do this by taking a leadership role in managing a woman's expectations early on. I will tell her that I have little tolerance for drama and absolutely zero tolerance for abusive treatment and false accusations. I will let her know what I can and will do to foster positive growth. I will ask her to talk with me should her wants, needs and expectations be different than what I am doing.

In closing there is one thing I find rather amusing. Many women will say that they will not ask a man out as they won't know if he is accepting out of courtesy or out of interest. Think about it for a moment - this is exactly what men are faced with the vast majority of the time. I know many women that will accept the free meal and drinks, yet have no real interest at all in the man.

So what we are asking is for women to be real and talk to us about your wants, needs and expectations. If we don't know what they are, it is virtually impossible for us to meet them. What we don't want is to be constantly made wrong when we don't do things exactly your way.

Avatar for northwestwanderer
iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003
Wed, 08-09-2006 - 12:51pm

You wrote:

"Many women will say that they will not ask a man out as they won't know if he is accepting out of courtesy or out of interest. Think about it for a moment - this is exactly what men are faced with the vast majority of the time."

Yep, it's true--that's part of being a guy! Women have other burdens to bear in the courtship/romance arena, but taking the lead in asking someone out is up to the guy.

It's unfortunate that there are women out there who will take advantage just as there are men out there who will use the courtship process to get sex. But to me, the existence of bad apples doesn't mean the process isn't viable and valid.

Sheri

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-25-2004
My brother and I have similar conversations. They are all very enlightening.
I dont think that women have ruined it for men. I guess I dont lke the blame game.
Many women I know are fully willing to ask a guy out. And they will take the lead gladly if they are interested in someone. I asked my bf out for our first dinner date after we had had lunch a few times. He was just not sure where he stood with me exactly. I do however have a limit to how much I will initiate. I told him that if there had been no physical contact ( light contact like a small kiss godnight or something) initiated by him that I would have assumed we would probably end up friends. He seemed puzzled and relieved that he kissed me but asked me why. I told him I guess I feel like there needs to be what I call a "throw down" factor. And what I mean buy that is there needs to be some spark of chemistry. Like, he shouldnt really and was smart not to throw me down on the sofa on the first date but I was looking for signs that he wanted to...A woman likes to be pursued and as far as I know , men normally like pursuing.
I think what has really complicated the dating world in a noticable way is the internet. No wonder people are geting blown off, never called back, and taken advantage of. There have never been so many choices at our finger tips. it is adding temptation to an already loaded area of our lives. It also makes everyone a bit pickier in my opinion since they figure " oh well, he/she doesnt fit my exact requirements but no matter, I will just go back and find someone else on my match list who surely does" since everyone on the match list is only looking perfect and sterling. We have become spoiled and unwilling to overlook faults because we think we can do one better. I am not saying the internet is evil - I have done my share of internet dating and with some success - but I do think it is a factor in the dating climate right now.
iVillage Member
Registered: 04-15-2003

Great topic. I hate to advocate playing games but in the beginning at least it's probably best for the woman to let the guy pursue. Once the relationship hits more solid ground then it can of course be more equitable.

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iVillage Member
Registered: 04-14-2003

I haven't read any of the other responses but my opinion is ever changing on this very subject. Again, I will bring up my recent eye-opening experience that I wrote about on the text message thread about my health club and those uber aggressive 20-something women who ARE very much getting what they want.

It's tough out there, expecially with all those new sexual harassment rules. And look at us, our houses, our fancy jobs, our nice cars, no woman is want for anything in this day and age. We can afford to be very very picky, rightly so. And look at the men, sometimes without stable employment, excess weight and all that excess baggage, the exkids, the exwives, do we want to take that on?

I don't think anyone "ruined things", times change, they always do. I'm always one to see the glass half full rather than empty so can we women use the fact that it is okay to approach a man? Those ladies at my club certainly do, and they get their man.

We can ask men out if we wish, but let's reference HJNTIY, if he doesn't call you back then you need to move on. When he wants to come over only for a booty call HJNTIY, when he becomes wishy washy HJNTIY. Period, quit dreaming and move on.

If you were interested in a guy, what prevented you from asking him out for coffee? for line-dancing lessons? for lunch? Speed up the process in your favor, honey, before some other lady does it first.

iVillage Member
Registered: 08-25-2004
I agree with you entirely. As I wrote in my previous post, I asked my bf out on our first dinner date. Yes, it was nervewracking but I am all too aware of how fantastic he is and how headstrong the women in the twenties can be in getting their man these days. Now that we are together I encounter some of them on a regular basis either trying to cause trouble or poke holes in what we have. I think it has become a bit of an equal playing field when it comes to pursuing. I even asked my bf about how it felt for him to have me ask him out and he said he was flattered and relieved. I dont think he is one of those guys that pursues easily. I had certainly gotten enough signals to know he was interested and didnt think I was losing anything by asking. I figured the worst thing that could happen would be that I would find out he was taken already. Lucky for me, he wasnt.
Also, even though I made the first move it certainly hasnt prevented him from being very much the guy in the relationship.
iVillage Member
Registered: 08-14-2006

I don't think it is either men or women that we can blame. Blame doesn't lay on one party or another but as a collective.

I am very much an equalist and i have seen the frustrations that many guys i know go through trying to please the women they already have! In all honesty i think that we have too many rules when it comes to dating. I will admit that it is very flattering to have a guy ask you out and make the first move, but women can send guys mixed signals too and as much as we think that guys like the "hard to get women" i think it can become frustrating for them so they kind of give up. Would you really go after a guy if he seemed totally uninterested in you? I am sure many of us women will go on date and have our gaurds up (like the original poster said, some guys are afraid to talk to girls because the girls act as thought the guy is some sort of rapist).

I guess guys can take some blame too. I don't see anything wrong with a girl persuing a guy and maybe guys need to like it a bit more (it has got to be an ego boost). It is okay to let a girl pay for lunch every once in a while. I would get annoyed when my ex refused to let me pay for lunch because he didn't want people to think that he wasn't being a "real man". To me a relationship is about give and take. If you go on one date with a guy and he pays, if you are lucky enough to get a second date, offer to pay for that one.

I myself admit that i want a guy who is willing to treat me like a queen and jump through hoops for me. But in return i will treat him like a king and jump through hoops of fire for him.

iVillage Member
Registered: 03-26-2003

Hi Stacey!

Pianoguy hasn't read all the other responses, but he definitely agrees with the thoughts of your brother.

Forgive me...but there are single women who swear they want a relationship...or at the very least, to be NOTICED BY A MAN. But the moment a man makes a response of any kind, many of these woman grow cold or distant towards us. So it should come as no surprise that we'll either seek "a more interested lady" out...or we'll just pursue our hobbies and interests alone.

It's a lousy alternative to spending a date night with somebody special, but 'holding any woman hostage' for 3 or more hours on a Saturday night is a waste of our time, money and emotions. Fulfilling a feminine dream is impossible when the women we love don't let us know EXACTLY what she wants?

Just my 2 cents...

Pianoguy

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-14-2003

Pianoguy, you know better than anyone that a person who grows "cold and distant" is either not interested or playing games. In which case, a smart dater will know to keep his/her distance.

Game playing gets you absolutely nowhere.

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