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| Thu, 05-03-2007 - 4:17am |
after a long self imposed "no guys" hiatus, i recently started dating again. i'm indian, and i only go out with European guys who either visit here or live/study here. anyways, was out with this 28 year old Danish guy. we'd corresponded over email just 4 days prior to meeting, but it was just the best correspondence ever. hes studying experimental film making/direction, so was naturally very colorful and elaborate in his mails to me, some of them raking up 3 pages at a time. Loved his musings on every little thing....Anyways, he told since i am the Bombay native, that i should decide what to do on the date. we went to a pub, had a couple of beers, and then went to this isolated garden where there was noone around, and just talked and talked and talked. i had earlier planned on going home by 9 pm... but was happily gazing at the stars and chatting with him till 1 am. never has a date lasted taht long. and also never has a date been without any kissing etc.
He'd told me that he had broken up with his swedish gf, and hence had come to india for a change of scenery, so to speak. that was in august last year. we met three weeks ago. when we finally got up to go to our respective houses, he gave me a peck on the cheek. we stayed in touch by phone for the next three days. he said he had a wonderful time too.
But then after a few days, he said his feelings for his gf are still there, that he thought he was over her, but apparently not, that it wouldnt be fair to me to be with a guy who is thinking of someone else....
am i crazy to actually believe this? whats a guy's opinion of this?
More importantly, what i am confused about is - when i have done everything right (i.e. not having sex too soon, stroking his ego etc), then how come i still dont get good results when it comes to dating. also, i was very depressed after this for a couple of days. But then i realized i wasnt upset that things as they were with this guy didnt work out. i was more upset that what could have been with this guy (marriage possibly?) will now not materialize. i was greiving the death of the dream, so to speak. how does one avoid that, and take things only for what they really are...?
Currently i am seeing a (sorry to say, married with kids) italian guy who lives in bombay. i am 26, he is 45. the danish guy above -at 28 - was the youngest guy i ever been with. when this italian guy told me he was married, i almost laughed thinking it was a nice joke, but he was serious. and though i had prmoised myself i wouldnt go out with married men, i suddenly changed my point of view - it wasnt for marriage etc anymore. i was date raped 7 years ago, and since that time i have been avoiding sex to the point where i am actually scared of it. so i thought this would be a great way to correct that situation - to replace that fear with a more positve thing. i told the guy all this and he was more than willing to help work at this. now i no longer fear sex, and we meet up everyday after work and weekends for sex and then just lounge around his room all day. i dont worry about this guy not calling me - i'm secure enuf in this 'relationship' - something i have never felt before ever.
Am i taking a step backwards by doing this? anyone care to comment?

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i've always felt that with younger guys, i have to play the part of an "equal partner", whereas with older men, its more of them taking the lead (which i like), and lesser responsibility/expectations from me. Older guys help you out (in bed i mean).
The normalization of sex thing... that would happen with any guy, i guess, not just older or married men. Just with a married guy, i dont get my feelings mixed up or get hurt.
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Thats the whole point - if i could find a decent single guy, why would i be with a married man?
me too! the idea of my husband cheating on me is so great i dont think i will eevr marry!
after reading the 7 or 8 responses to my post here, that same evenning i went to meet this italian guy at his place again. and there was a letter sitting there from his family in italy and a picture of his two boys age 9 and 12, both smiling and their arms around each other.
that one pictuer of those two boys made me cry and i felt like the most horrible person on earth. a picture really is worth (more than) a thousand words. i kept thinking 'would these boys still be smiling if they found out what their daddy has been up to?"
i finally had a talk with this guy saying i was having these apprehensions. he said he wasnt about to leave his family for anyone. and taht i need not worry about 'breaking up a family' coz that isnt gonna happen. and that the choice was up to me - that we can just be freinds if i was not comfortable with this...He also said "You are asking strangers on the net about how they feel about this, you asked me about my thoughts. where is Zenobia in all this? what does Zenobia think? you are 26 years old now..you're a woman now, not a girl. and part of being a woman is taking responsibilty and taking your own decisions"
My point is - if i was causing some damage to his family, it would be wrong, no doubt. but they way things are right now, is it still wrong if we just meet up for fun/sex?
dont all women get down after a rejection?
Yes i am looking for a serious relationship. each time. but if i am not getting that, i can at least have some fun &experience, get some healing or whatever from the guy i am with. rather than wait for some prince charming to fall on my lap magically some day, shouldnt i be more proactive and go out with guys. whats the worst that can happen? we break up, no marriage etc. will deal with dying alone when i am 60, i guess. what about NOW? should i be alone now, so that there is a possibilty of not being alone when i am old?
The funny thing is, there are soo many Indian men who ask me out, say that i am pretty or whatever, and that doesnt have any impact on me. Its like they dont exist. Guess i am just after something i cant have. thats the thrill. Even though i was date raped by a european guy and have never been with an indian guy.
About why i have this attitude towards indian men, i had an epiphany last year when i was coming to terms with my date rape thingy....
The reason is, when i was growing up, the local indian guys were mean to me, teasing me for the way i look etc. i just never forgave them for that. obviously now i dont look like a beauty queen, but look much better now...and i love it when the guuys around me drool while i walk by in some revealing or tight outfit. and i love it that i just walk past them withiout acknowledging their presence. so now, its like ' you want me, but too bad you cant have me'....
I'm just all over the place these days...i guess my own opinion also keeps changing on these things...sorry if this seems confusing..
Karma has a funny way of coming back around. You are consciously choosing to continue to mess around with a man who is taken. One day you may find the love of your life and guess what will happen? Yep, he'll be cheating on you with a girl that thinks it's ok and you will have no clue because he's not breaking up the relationship.
I said it once and I'll say it again: Treat others as you'd want to be treated.
"My point is - if i was causing some damage to his family, it would be wrong, no doubt. but they way things are right now, is it still wrong if we just meet up for fun/sex?" --- okay, this question touches on ethical/moral issues as well as interpersonal relations issues and some reality.
Ethically and morally it is wrong to meet up for sex even though his family is in another country and you don't see any apparent dysfunction. HE took the oath to be faithful, not you, so I understand you don't see a moral issue for you here. If you don't mind life boomeranging around on you one day, because it will happen to you, then I don't know why you bother to post.
Interpersonally he is detaching from his family. He is not emotionally "there" for them even though you dont see anything like that happening. Children in this situation usually feel that the parent has cheated on them and their love, not just the mother. They would feel that he abandoned the family and put the family at risk for dissolving, thus possibly financial ruin. Men seem to think that it is just the wife who would emotionally suffer and feel betrayed, but that is not true. The kids walk away feeling Dad didn't love them either.
Reality - he's in a country with you and not with the family so he's gonna cheat. Love is not enough to prevent someone from cheating. All women feel that most men are "dawgs" and they are correct. Alot of men feel entitled to a little something on the side - why not, they work hard dont' they? they gave up alot to be married, right? they have to have sex with the same person, over and over for the rest of their lives, horrible right?. My heart bleeds for them, realllyy, trueellyy, it does bleed for them. hehehe. They got themselves into this mess and they need to get themselves out of this mess, and they won't so they find an outlet for their discomforts and escape for a while, instead of being a man and just asking for a divorce.
But, I will admit that commiting to having sex with one person for the rest of your life can be difficult. It is especially difficult if the other person and you are not sexually compatible. After a while, a marriage settles into a comfortable state, which is great on a emotional level, but the sexual "tension" decreases. That is when a lot of couples start experimenting with new ideas to keep sex interesting. It is hard to spice up a dull sex life. Both parties have to really contribute to keeping things sexually enticing. So...are people wrong for wanting to have sex with someone with whom they don't need to "work" at getting them all revved up? No. The combustion that happens between 2 people with first time sex is great and all of us want that to last forever, but it usually doesn't.
The fact of the matter is that marriage, from a functional standpoint, in America doesn't work as an institution anymore. There are so many reasons for that. You do not live in this country and the culture wherever you are may be different. Marriage here is not based on work and survival anymore - where the guy takes the woman "off of the family's hands" and needs to be paid a dowry to do so - like oxen. Marriage is based on emotional intimacy and most people dont' have a clue as to what emotional intimacy means. Emotional intimacy is fragile. It doesn't mean you take the person as a hostage by demanding things and using them and having them there as your emotional punching bag. It means you create a life together. Most people marry for the wrong reasons and they discover this during the course of an affair. Men have always had mistresses and alot of women are taking on misters - as I like to call them. Women, traditionally, have looked the other way regarding their husbands having affairs, feeling that they could never satisfy their man in bed enough to prevent that from happening ("all he wants is sex")- when that is just the tip of the iceberg for alot of men - but a significant part. Women complicated things by bringing up their daughters to be a "good wife and mother", but sex is for pleasing the MAN and having kids. Women were told that they didn't need sex. I was told that by my mother's friends. HAHAHA! (At the age that I was, I just kept my mouth shut). Way back women were advised by their mothers to "just grin and bear it" when the guy would want sex. Why women cut themselves off at the genitalia, I don't know. Women positioned their daughters and themselves to be "functional" rather than an equal party to the fun in a relationship or in the lust department. For all I know, women are still like this today all over the world. Women want to be loved and want more than sex from a guy - they want their emotional needs met. Guys are not brought up to be emotionally available, even for themselves. Guys are not raised to want to satisfy a woman's emotional needs. They cant fully satisfy women that way because their minds work differently. So when women ask their husbands to do it all, they are setting the marriage up for failure. Unless you marry a Dr. Phil, that is what is going to happen. That is why women have friends - to tap into that emotional need.
What really prevents someone from cheating is knowing that your spouse or SO loves you more than anything in the world PLUS you VALUING that love -- and understanding that that KIND of love is hard to come by. Sure you can replace him or her in body, but what about in mind and spirit? In addition, because you are a SMART person, with a heart and have some ethics - you wouldn't do something stupid to yourself, and thus your SO. ALL of these have to be present within the two parties plus the relationship for cheating to be minimized. So that is why there is alot of cheating. If you have never been married, you may not understand what I am talking about.
My first marriage ended with my husband having an affair - but it was inevitable - he still doesn't believe that, but he's a guy. It started emotionally for him, and of course that led to sex. I checked out of the relationship at that point, eventhough we were not officially divorced and I entered into relationships prior to filing for our divorce and finalizing our divorce. In some ways, I wish I didn't do that. It was a knee jerk reaction and I had sex out of hurt and frustration. At the time, it felt okay and even good, but my mind wasn't clear and I didn't fully understand why I was doing what I was doing. I understood I was seeking a bandaid for my broken heart, but I just complicated my healing process from the divorce and it took longer to process the hurt from my divorce because I complicated things. With the second marriage and divorce I knew to handle things differently. My second husband asked that we withold seeing other people until the divorce was final, even though we lived apart. That was a setup for a lawsuit that I didn't see him setting me up for at the time - but whatever, I agreed and it was a better way of handling the situation, regardless. My second husband did not have an affair, to best of my knowledge, but I never suspected that he would do that to me. I never thought of him that way because of how he treated me in private and in public in mixed company. He almost got me killed, but that is a different story. I would never have suspected him involved in any violence against me, but sometimes that comes at you hard and fast.
I'm just all over the place these days...i guess my own opinion also keeps changing on these things...sorry if this seems confusing"
----just a thought - having or witholding sex because you want to get back at someone or a group of people could set you up to never have a meaningful relationship because you could take it out on the guy or yourself.
<<<<...Yes i am looking for a serious relationship. each time. but if i am not getting that, i can at least have some fun &experience, get some healing or whatever from the guy i am with. rather than wait for some prince charming to fall on my lap magically some day, shouldnt i be more proactive and go out with guys. whats the worst that can happen? we break up, no marriage etc. will deal with dying alone when i am 60, i guess. what about NOW? should i be alone now, so that there is a possibilty of not being alone when i am old? >>>>
All women don't react the same way to rejection. Not all women will get what they can if the man rejects them. Everyone is different. Personally, I've been rejected by many men whom I liked, but that were already involved. However, despite feeling bad I don't say "hey, let's get some fun at least and some experience". I move on and keep on looking for what I want. The man who cheats and is involved is a cheater. He will do that to all the women in his life. His standards in life say that he can and that he will without remorse or guilt whatsoever. My standards in life and boundaries say that I won't allow that so I can control my behavior so I don't so it. He can and will if he wants to.
The point is that you're settling for less for the sake of not being alone. What's wrong with being alone I ask you? You seem very unhappy and bitter with who you are and you are looking to get attention and what you can get from men. You get the drool from the men you don't like because those men used to moak you, and you get sex from men who are willing to have sex but nothing more. You get involved with men despite your goals.
Being alone will give you the chance to get to know you better and to set goals for what you want in the future. You have to be happy with yourself first in order to share yourself with another person. Nobody can make you happy if you're not happy with whom you are. It's possible that you're looking for a man to make you happy.
It's possible that you're behavior is also relatefd to the trauma of being raped and the bullying you endired when you were younger. All that leaves an emotional mark, that you can't see on the outside. You have your beauty and you're taking advantage of it. That's fine, but you're doing it in a way that it's not healthy. You parade around men who will drool and you enjoy it. You're a teaser. That is a dangerous game that could come back to bite you in the a$$.
You have a goal: a serious relationship. But as soon the man rejects you OR says "I'm looking for casual" you say "OK, he's not gonna be serious, so what the heck! Just enjoy life, get more experience and have fun". If you goal is to sleep around and get more experience that way then you're right on the money, BUT if your goal is to get into a serious relationship then it's not the way to go. You're letting rejection push you into a man's arms, a man who is not available for a serious relationship and you take it because "at least you can get some". That seems to be your way of reasoning. You don't want to be alone, you feel the "need" that goes into addiciton to be with a man, any man.
You seem not to have boundaries for men, relationships and every person that comes into contact with you at work, street, stores, family, etc. If you had boudaries then you wouldn't be getting into casual deals, if you're goal is to look for something serious. Let's say that you have the boundary that "you're looking for serious dating only", but when you meet with the guy he tells you that he's married (just to give you an example with something that you know). Your boundary says "serious means available and he's not". Your boundary says move on and you'll keep on dating looking proactively toward a serious relationship. However, because you have no boudaries you get into this man's bed because "let's have some fun at least". That is called settling and getting what you can, but not what you want. Do you realize that you're wasting valuable time with this man and that you could be proactively looking for what you want? You meet and have sex and you like it, but it goes nowhere and you, deep inside, want to go somewhere.
You can be proactive looking for the man you want, but don't loss the focus (serious) just because of rejection. Set boudaries for everybody and all situation. Work on your inner self, get healthy and accept yourself with flaws and qualities. Be happy with who you are. After all that work, you will be healthy to share life, the life you want with another human being.
Edited 5/6/2007 9:49 pm ET by lightandbright
I wanted to add or comment on some of your statements to miz_zenobia.
"All women don't react the same way to rejection. Not all women will get what they can if the man rejects them. Everyone is different. Personally, I've been rejected by many men whom I liked, but that were already involved." -----
True, everyone handles rejection differently. I have witnessed that when some women get rejected, especially the younger women, they do tend to go out with their friends, pick up the first available guy, sleep with him and then get a double dose of rejection soon after. They would have been better off going home, crying and feeling blue for a bit and then dusting themselves off and starting over.
Then there is the other type of rejection that seems to be very prominent these days with men: the very verbal and overt statements from men admiring women a little too much in front of their girlfriends or wives. Not only do I find this distasteful and nasty, but it really does hurt women very much and SHE KNOWS HE DID IT TO HURT HER. I could see a wife or a girlfriend jumping into bed with another guy just to a)spite their husbands, b)remind themselves that they are pretty or c)start to let go of the relationship and realize that they are not being treated correctly with the start of an affair. I don't condone self destructive behavior when a guy treats someone this way, but I can see why it happens. I had to deal with this before and it does erode your confidence and eventually you just leave. If I found a guy attractive I wouldn't make sure he found out about it. That is something to keep to myself. And if he did find out about it from me talking to a friend, then that friend "goes" because then she is starting trouble. I have seen women on Dr. Phil get so upset with their husbands and boyfriends doing this to them that they can't watch certain shows or movies anymore because of the things that the men have said about the women in those shows. their boyfriends do it to hurt them and damage their psyches but it comes off that the women are insecure and jealous and this is normal in a relationship and it is not normal it is sadistic. I know men think that women are "too sensitive" and it is just a mistake, but they do deserve a taste of their own medicine.
What I like to do when I am dating someone is to make him feel like he is the most handsome guy in the room. I feel that it does wonders in the romance dept, but I haven't seen much of it from men towards women in general. If men were smart (I know, almost an impossible dream) they would do the same because it does make for great sex). For some reason men seem possessed with making sure that their girlfriend or wife understands that there are tons of women in that room that he would sleep with or find hot. Like that if she feels insecure it gives him a "one up" inthe relationship. I have noticed that men seem to feel comfortable talking to their wives about their crushes on other women - ack!!! I'd have to say "see ya" - that's too much for a heart to take, but women take it and i don't know why.
In regards to this statement: "hey, let's get some fun at least and some experience". Experience with different guys is nice, but it only enhances what is already there. In other words you could be the same lover with 5 men or with 25 men in your past. Technical practice only gets you so far. If you are not the best lover, then you are not the best lover - practicing to the point of self-destruction is stupid.
i was going through your replies and also reading my own posts again, when i realized no one picked up on a couple of points -
1. i really appreciate what you all are saying, and taking the time out to give such detailed replies. but in terms of impact or harm done, none of your words had such an impact on me as that picture of that guy's two sons smiling. I dont know if the guy purposely left out the pictures for me to see, or if he forgot to hide them in time...but, my God! seeing them was painful. if there is somethng that would make me to stop doing what i am doing, that picture would be it. until i saw their pictures, it was just "some family out there in italy"....now, its specific faces and names. How many of you women who have had affairs relate to this? isnt it simpler when it is just "some woman"?
2. the second thing i picked up from rereading my own posts was, i still am afraid to make my own decisions and act like an adult. thats been the story of my life actually. the major i chose in college, the IT degree that i goit....all of it, though not forced by my father, was all done in accordance to his wishes....to keep him happy. i majored in Accountancy, and have done a three year degree in computers, programming etc. one would think i would like that. nope...cant stand it. but thanks to listening to my father about that degree, i got into a good company to work. i used to loveee my job - mostly because of the great supportive people who i could go to to cry if needed. now they all are gone, but i am still here out of some misplaced sense of loyalty to the company. Its like i'm stuck in all departments of my life. earlier when i had no love life, i used to tell myself "at least its going great at work"...now i cant really say that. i dont relate at all to my family. we are constantly fighting or at best in a truce. the thing i hate most....is that my father called me a "cheap whore" a number of years back, after he found out i lost my viginity to some guy (thats teh same guy who date raped me). i never explained any of it to my father. i also never can seem to forget the look on his face when he said that. the reason i dont explain it to them is, they will say "i told you so" etc. at least this way, they just think i am being rebelious or whatever. This also explains why i have been going out with much older men --- issues with daddy... another thing they pick on - my weight (calls me 'skeletal' or 'bony'.... Though the married guy LOVES my body and says not to put on any pounds just to make my father happy.) and my choice of clothes ('slutty' 'not indian enough'). they have no idea i am seeing guys again. i just hide it now until it is "serious enough".
You know, i have been through this so many times before...i now know WHY i am doing the things i do, but cant seem to get things in order. a few years ago when i just wasnt going out with any guy, i felt ' i have stopped all my bad habits. but somehow i cant seem to get to the other side of the pendulum - and do some good things. why isnt something good happening to me even tghough i am being good?"
One question i alsways ask on dates is "do you have everything 'figured out' in life?" the guys who say no, they are in a mess too - i love those, coz that mekes me feel not all alone. That Danish guy was one of them, and i just instantly connected with him. and in my defence, he didnt seem emotionally distant on the date. yes, he didnt want to talk about why he broke up with his swedish gf, but notthng more than that. when i went out with him, i felt these wonderful things i never felt before. and i really felt i was going on the right track (getting to know the guy first, meeting in a public place, no sex....) and was hoping something would materialize out of it. He wasnt even "good looking"...i almost turned back when i saw him in a distance. but he won me over with his talk. Wish he would come back to me now - would gladly give up the married guy. and please dont tell me 'you'll find another great guy like that danish guy soon"... WHEN? its been 26 years of my life before i met one such guy.
What if i dont honestly see myself with a "love of my life"? of ever getting married? where does the Karma go then? The only place when i see myself married is in my dreams - and even then, its not really "me, its some famous actress who goes through a lot of turmoil in gher life, and then finally meets someone great to spend the rest of her life with. heres the catch - he's gay. so even in my dreams i dont really see myself ever being 'happily married" . wonder if that says soemthng about me...?
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