Please Help! Im so confused!
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| Tue, 06-15-2004 - 6:24pm |
Being a typical girl, I am very excited and happy, but I am trying not to get ahead of myself. The last two weekends, he has taken me out shopping at different jewelers for styles and sizes of rings. We even discussed a budget and how to stay within that. Today he called me and gave me a website where he had found a ring he really liked and asked me to give him my opinion.
My dilemma is this... everyone on this board always says that it isnt real until he actually asks... so what do i with myself until then? I know a guy thinks about a lot of things when it gets to this point, and I am just terrified it will either take six months or he'll change his mind. (Can you tell i've been burned in the past?)
He has even told me it is going to take him a while to find the 'perfect' ring and 'perfect' proposal. I guess i am not hung up on it all being perfect, i just want us to end up together. We've even talked about eloping just so we don't get sucked into all the wedding planning drama....
so how do i keep myself from obsessing and hoping? i don't want to turn into a psycho while he is debating marrying me!!! Help!!! (yes, i know i am being compulsive, but i would love to hear opinions)

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thanks for your advice. I appreciate it. I know things are going to be fine. I think I just got a little hyper about everything... He isnt the only "type A" person in this relationship! HAHA
thanks bunches
Values and priorities justify actions, feelings, thoughts, decisions, words, ideas and desires.
Usually people start out thinking what perks and benefits, options and enjoyment a committed relationship will bring to their life, offer them and provide to them.
They usually get into these situations and find out there is concessions, compromise, there is obligation, responsibility, requirement, and communication required - and some of what you could do, might have done, might have had in your potntial - is now out of the question because of commitment.
So people use different methods.....some people want to see you in EVERY situation they believe you'll encounter in marriage - before they "commit"....to ensure that you define a great life like they do, and you pursue it like they do, and that what you want isn't in conflict with them and thier goals and needs.
Other people review pervasive dynamic...which is a much shorter timeframe.
But he would have had ot want commitment prior to this - to get commitment out of this...unless it strings out until he's out of other options and potential and he figures that this relationship given it's comfort zone, and his "open to options' dynamic is what he'll want for a lifetime.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
First, I have to agree with you about the mis-guided assumptions that were made about you and your boyfriend.
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Thanks so much. Your advice is just the kind I need to hear. I think its definetely important "not to borrow trouble." Sometimes, I do just that. I guess the reason that I am so terrified of what might happen is because of a previous relationship. At one point, I thought (4 years ago) that I was dating "the one." In fact, I had myself very convinced. Well, after a while we realized that he would never want what I wanted, and that I didnt even want those things with him. In retrospect, that relationship could never have lasted one minute of marriage. But, it still hurt when it ended. It also showed me how easily people can change their minds. Now, my mind knows that I was a child then and that I am a different woman dating a man I actually respect and don't want to change in any way. But my heart remembers that hurt... and I think it scares me.
I am very conscious of not nagging or heckling, but thanks for reminding me. I know that when people are scared, they can seem needy or desperate--which I want to avoid at all costs. SO, I have chosen this particular venue to vent in. Because my boyfriend is the first person I go to with any worries, I have felt alone during this recent time. I just needed a way to share my excitement, nervousness, and other things with an unbiased audience.
And, good luck with your situation. As I described earlier, I did love a man that I could never have married. And it was hard to get over that. But, if you really think you can't have the life you want with him, you can't expect him to change to fit that. Plus, i think getting over someone takes a long time, so the sooner you can decide one way or another, the sooner you can get started on that process. Good luck... and same advice to you--- get excited and interested in ways to occupy yourself outside your relationship.
The one thing I realized in the ONLY great relationship I've ever had in my life - the one I'm in now vs. those 4 marriages that last 17 LONG destructive years....is that I am enjoying "every minute right now".
It's all about right now...those rings didn't mean they wouldn't leave, or cheat, or get me into debt, or lie or destroy me (all with my cooperative participation!).
Those rings didn't have a magic quality that would change him.....my dad used to say "Aisle/altar/hymn is NOT I'll altar him".
So if as he is right now, this second - is who'd you'd spend the rest of your life with, doing just waht you're diong right now - being self-aware, self-responsible, pursuing your goals, broadening your horizons with him by your side and you by his...that ring doesn't matter a bit. The ceremony is irrelevant.
Yes, it's a beautiful event that has significance in societal realm and in legal regard..but it doesn't "change" things. Not him, not you.
Looking back..the biggest mistake I made in ALL those marriages was being so concerned, so worried, so busy, so extended making sure "life with me was a bunch of roses, a walk in the park". I wanted them to know there was harmony, support, assurance, and comfort coming from me at all times, no matter what their situation.
I never took the time to assess I was never getting that from them....I was running on an assumption that they "knew" marriage meant they'd have to consider me their equal, and prioritize me and my needs appropriately "once we were married".
And that's why those marriages ended.....because the "marriage" was NOTHING like the relationships that came before them......all of which lasted longer than any of the marriages themselves...except the last one. And that last one brought me to my knees...because the problem with an inequality based dynamic is that you're divesting yourself of assets and options to ease their life...and when your life with them ends you've lost some measure of those assets and options and abilities. So you have less to offer, more to worry about in the next romance..trying to make it a relationship.
He's no more committed to you now...than he will be then. Maybe this is a better way to explain it.
Happiness, success and security aren't found in a relationship, situation, possession, or position. They're not a "destination" per se. They're part of life's journey...and your life's journey to contain those things means that you have defined, pursued, achieved, and maintained those status quos per your own needs and desires and goals and standards. That's a "self" endeavor that never ends - with or without a relationship.
I've heard from several psychologists friends of mine that what ends most great partnerships of any sort is the cessation of self-reliance by one party. Not just in a situation of crisis...such as you a break a leg and need more assistance and less obligation for some period of months. But the partnership is entered into by both parties with the "awareness" to the best of both of their indepedendent abilities to assess it - that thier "partner' is complete as an entity in and of and unto themselves.
And they assume that their partner will remain that "complete" person - not reliant on them for what is inappropriate to ask for...but very necessary to have...if they're to remain as balanced, rational, successful and secure as they are while dating, or while forming the contractual business partnership.
And once alliance is assured, the deal is sealed, the contract signed, the ring on the finger...one partner turns to the other and says "okay, let's renegotiate - the entity of this marriage/contract is supposed to ensure my happiness, my success, it's supposed to provide me with goals or structure, it's supposed to provide me with stability and assurance." The other person is aghast because they never agreed to provide these things that are self-commodities and they can't - no matter what they do.
In business agreements...partnerships based in equality that become unbalanced are soon ended by dissolution of contractual agreement.
In marriage....partnerships that started out in equality that become unbalanced slowly degenerate over time. An so much hope, so many dreams, so many obligations and so many options are involved that people are loathe to end it....despite the pain and loss and suffering and misery on some level....and to try to "get it back to ground zero" they often make babies, or incur huge debts...anything that would force them to stay together despite the misery.
It's just something to consider.
If he values commmitment - he won't enter into it lightly. If he doesn't enter into it light - he won't leave it at the first thunderstorm, either.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
Thank you so much for all of your advice, and your willingness to reassess my question with less judgement. I do appreciate the breadth of you knowledge and experience-- just the sort of resource I had hoped to find.
I guess what I gleened from the most recent post, were a few little concepts that I have found to differentiate this relationship from any I had ever had.
First, as my grandmother finally told me, the man you met on your first date is the man he will be for the rest of his life. If he doesn't ever bring you flowers now, he never will. If he is disrespectful now, he always will be. And so on. THis basically told me that I need to be with someone I love as is, including flaws, and not be waiting for sometime that they will "reach their full potential."
Secondly, I firmly believe that you can not be happy with another person unless you are perfectly capable of being happy independently. As in, happy with yourself before you met them, and happy while you are together. In this, you bring into a relationship a sense of confidence, and you can reduce the amount of dependence and neediness found in most relationships.
I also believe that we have a good understanding of what some of our great challenges will be as a married couple. For one, I am beginning med school which is expensive, and once married, my debt is "our" debt. We have tried to figure out a plan to where he will not resent having to support me and my schooling--he looks at this loan as an investment in our future when I will be doing very well financially. We have also discussed the fact that my schedule as a physician will leave me gone more than at home during my first years. Again, we are taking steps to try and develop communication and intimacy now, as well as realistic expectations of the future.
I think the biggest, most notable aspect of our relationship is that from day one, I made a private, personal, conscious effort to prepare myself and us to have a long-lasting quality marriage. We have learned how to fight effectively, and we have both developed the ability to speak out when we are hurt, rather than holding it in. Approaching this relationship with that attitude has really helped us get to where we are. I am just so excited by the possibility that we might spend the rest of our lives being able to grow together and to support eachother through all of life's ups and downs. Basically, I am happy by myself, and proud of who I am. But, I think we make a hell of a team-- and he would tell you the same exact thing!!!
thanks for all the help, but I am realizing that I know more of the answers than I had thought :)
Because those remain the sole responsibility of the "student" they're given to - whether married or not at the time or in the future. Working at a university, and having worked in financial aid- I'm very aware of that. I'd be the first to say that I've never dealt with loans regarding med school.....so if you're getting them via another source then you would need to check directly with that source.
But in most states regarding debt......becuase I am SO way familiar with that in that last marriage...and my dealing with that.....whatever debt you enter the marriage with is your own. Admittedly, it becomes impactive to your partner...but it's never the responsiblity of your partner per se.
I'd say your grandmother is absolutely right.....because values justify actions. The values people utilize to determine the method by which to deal with siutations, per their perception of it and reasoning regarding it-isn't going to change. Unless the person makes a conscious effort to change their values for personal reasons. That is why people end up in the "same situations" repeatedly - despite new faces or locations. Values prevail thus dynamics prevail....no matter where you go there you are.
So I'd say "is he contemplating marriage"...or "marrying you". That'd be excellent to know....for you to know, not me. If he's wanting marriage and has fully thought thru how to have a great one by his definition, what it requires of him, and will bring to his life as you have and has prepared himself to be a "great partner" - by becoming a complete and "great" person by his own definitions, requirements and standards.......that would mean he's considering "facts" in the situation regarding you.
Facts can be discussed because they're concrete.....feelings are not concrete and change as situations alter.
And facts do "rule" - although some people like to believe otherwise. If his idea of a great marriage doesn't involve a partner with huge personal debt, with an obligation for years of long hours and position relocations in order to "fulfill the potential of the education and goals"......then that is what he's considering. And you need to realize what he's having to weigh is "what he wants, needs, requires, expects, has prepared himself for and has worked towards"...and saying "to be with HER, I'll give "X" % of my dreams, goals, needs". if he's assessing facts intelligently - he'll realize that whatever situation he finds himself getting into by choice....the situation is going to cause 'feelings'...that's where feelings come from - they're a result of situations, and they're fleeting becuase situations are constantly changing with actions, decisions and words - only a portion of which you personally take or control. And he might be assessing if he can compromise and concede so much "now" to get a "payout" that is not guaranteed. In short, can I sacrifice, give, and give up now what I want and need, to get "whatever we get".......that's realistic. That's practical - oh my God, in this society it's almost unheard of in romantic relationships - to consider the practical calculated "risk". Most people just "give" with the payout being some undefined entity wrapped in what appears at a distance to be a delightful bow that they won't receive for some period of time. And they find that the time spent post-giving and pre-receivership is spent in resentment, fear, anger, anxiety, and regret of having "given so much to get nothing so far"...only to find the closer they get to the package the less attractive it seems.
That'd be what an intellignt person would be doing if marriage was a priority and of value to them...and they were considering "you" as a partner.
If he's considering whether "marriage" is something he wants...because he has yet to come to terms with the foundation of it, the requirements of it, he hasn't assesed a value % to it.......then you're not nearly as far along despite whatever harmony, trust, and enjoyment you have in this relationship of making it a permanent entity.
that would mean that he's never put a priority or value to "marriage" as an institution as yet in his personal life. So everything tha tyou've been preparing yourself for - to be a good communicator, an equality based partner......is great...and it's of value to "this relationship". But he's never considered past "relationship as it is right now" int erms of whether he wants more in his life and is willing to sacrifice and work for it.
although this won't make sense overmuch.......lots of people won't carry a kayak that is heavy becuase it's not worth it. But if paddling that kayak is your passion, the weight of carrying it to the water is irrelevant and not considered a duty or sacrifice - it's just part of the process of doing what you love, to meet your needs, etc. etc.
So, that "5 year discussion" that someone I respect very much.......is a very relevant one. And YOU are so prepared to have it.
You know what you want in life, you know where you're headed, what you stand for, how you're ging to get there, you've got a plan nd a path and you're already on it. What you're going to reveal about what you want your lfie to "be like" in 5 years is evident by everything you've done to date...and everything you're doing now....and everything you plan to do. You're light-years ahead in this "conversation", should you choose to have it with him.
So the conversation is easy for you to have.....it's simply you revealing to him where you see yourself in 5 years....spiritually, mentally, professionally, financially, emotionally, personally, familially, locationally...and of course, some things can't be pinpointed in exact locations but more in existential entities - because what you're pursuing is putting options out there that might further you along to take...that aren't known to you as yet.
And then...what you want from him is the same synopsis of HIS life, as he views and prioritizes and values it, as he's planned his life.....and if he's done the same type of work you have towards future, with the same sense of self-responsibility and awareness that he's responsible for his destiny and his happiness.....he shouldn't have much of a hard time answering the questions.
In fact, your conversation is NOT going to be the interrogation that lots of people lacking in self-awareness and self-responsibility end up having......which is a messy discussion with lots of veiled implications and accusations. You're NOT at any risk as I'd view it of having any sort of that negativity.
Now.....if what you find is that he's less sure and clear, less prioritized and focused, less planning and prepared than you.....what you'll find out pretty quick is the "core" of his dilemma.
He's not sure who he is, or where he's headed, or what he wants as an individual. That you've done a great deal of planning, thinking, preparing, sacrificing, and taking responsible actions to give you a greatand complete life...and he's reviewing YOUR life, your path, your options, your potential and seeing if he wants alliance and affiliation so that by having that - he'll have a great life by YOUR standards, with YOU being the focal point and thus "responsible" for msot of his successes or lack thereof, most of his security or lack thereof, and most of his "happiness" or lack thereof. If you find that out - you my dear, know precisely what to do and that is to remain on your path with determination and focus and disassocate from him. Unless you're wanting to be all those roles in a relationship...in which case, stay with it as it is and let him choose the time at which to marry....because nothing you do is going to make him make up his mind....unless you do what it is you say you won't do - issue an ultimatum.
So, go have that conversation.....and given taht you're so prepared, I'd say start early in the day. Because in my case, in this relationship I'm in now....I was precisely whre you are - less optioned, more experienced, more aged, and less potential to explore - but nonetheless - I was precisely where you are in terms ofknowing what I wanted, what I stood for, where I was headed and most important - HOW I WAS GOING TO GET THERE.
And that conversation for me....had I had in those other marriages they'd have never come to be......started over breakfast one morning that had us cancelling our plans for the day because we were so enthralled and thrilled to find that what we had each "hoped for and assumed' but never acted on as facts...was indeed "a fact" in our lives as individuals. And we sat eating breakfast till around 11am....which had us relocated to the living room to hear more about th eperson we already respected and admired as an individual til around 4pm......and then we decided dinner was in order but we were so inspired and enlightened by everything that had come up as discussion so far...it took us a couple of hours to prepare dinner because we were still talking...and we talked until about 3am.....over coffee and dessert...and we'd be still having that conversation except we had to go to bed.....but really - we've never stopped having that conversation...and it's been about 4 years.....because everything about him interests me and intrigues me - it's not "integral" to my identity and thus is inspires me to greater heights...and he has the same reaction. So if we never marry......so what.......the conversation and surrounding activities have been absolutely life changing.
Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com
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