Underachieving emotional women are hot?

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-01-2006
Underachieving emotional women are hot?
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Sun, 01-01-2006 - 9:27pm

So tell me men...

If it's a fact that successful, educated women are less likely to marry, is this because men find them less attractive marriage partners? I'm not asking for statistics here...I just want your personal opinion. I'm taking a poll.

In a related topic, are women that appear vulnerable more attractive? À la Faye Wray? I ask this for the following reason:

I was dissed by a guy I had been dating 4 months at a party for no apparent reason, and quite drunkenly, I ended up crying on the shoulder of a guy that I didn't know later that night (embarrassing, no?). This guy took pity on me and listened to my sad tale of woe. He then like a gentleman gave me his email and phone number and told me to call him to find out what my boyfriend's problem was, and walked me to the subway. Well the problem was the next day my b/f broke up with me...no reason ever given... :(

But as a happy consequence, me and this guy have developed a rather close friendship. He dates younger women as he is 8 years younger than myself, and nothing has gone beyond this platonic friendship. We go mountain biking, to parties together, and this NYE we spent (platonically) ringing in the New Year by talking about our respective dating activity and watching DVDs...

I told one of my closest friends about this situation and she says guys love feeling needed like that...they like it when a woman is vulnerable, and she encouraged me to be more vulnerable.

This goes along the same lines of men preferring women with accents...like women are somewhat dependent on the guy.

Does this make any sense to anyone? My parents are both actors...I have taught myself to cry on cue...what do you think guys? Attractive? Crying on a date? (Because I'm not going to fake an accent!)

And don't give me the 'just be yourself' response...it's def NOT working...I want your honest opinion. It doesn't have to be bawling, I was kind of thinking just tearing up a bit when talking about something personal...but I've always thought that the other person might think I'm really depressed or something...yuck...




Edited 1/1/2006 9:42 pm ET by goddess_juju

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iVillage Member
Registered: 04-14-2003
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 9:19am

It's not just men, women are sometimes attracted to vulnerable men as well. Some people excell at helping others out from their problems. It's called codependency. The methodology is that if somebody is helped they will be attracted to a person who is helping them out....and may not notice the helper's faults of which there are usually many.

Now if a woman or man has their act together and feet on the ground, they may enter into a relationship with their eyes wide open and their date may not be able to mask his/her faults so easily.

I wouldn't be so quick to start acting vulnerable and bringing in drama where it isn't needed. Acting is difficult even for a few hours, it is almost impossible to sustain for the course of a relationship.

Are you the one that lives in New York? The single male to female ratio in NYC is 1:9. Move and you will probably be less frustrated.

iVillage Member
Registered: 01-01-2006
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 10:03am

May I ask, where did you get that 1:9 ratio single men to women in NYC statistic? I'm not questioning it, I've just never heard it before. Is that a certain age group?

Interesting, about codependency. That's certainly a word I've heard thrown around, but the thing about the helper's faults being ignored is interesting.

I stayed platonic friends with a helper such as this...so I guess I've never experienced being the vulnerable one in a dating type relationship yet. I don't think I've played the role of a helper either. I usually seek out people I feel who are my equal and who aren't in acute distress. I help out friends a lot though, like a girlfriend who has cancer and another g/f who just moved here from Spain...but I don't think you're talking about that.

Avatar for northwestwanderer
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Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 11:31am

I'm curious about that figure too. I just have trouble believing it could be SO disproportionate, unless maybe it includes widows in their 80s and 90s who've outlived their husbands or something? But even then, it just seems impossible to conceive of such a large disparity. Do you have a source?

Sheri

Avatar for northwestwanderer
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Registered: 03-26-2003
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 11:53am

I found this on a quick Google search:

http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/001911.html. In pertinent part:

According to an analysis for The Economist, there are 93 men to every 100 women among single New Yorkers aged 20-44. In the country as a whole, and in most other big cities, there are more young single men than young single women....

So there's a disparity, but far from a 1:9 ratio, at least in that age group.

Sheri

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Registered: 01-01-2006
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 12:05pm

Cool. Glad that geography is not such an issue. Although there's the homosexual population to consider, and there's probably more gay guys than lesbians, but even if it were 80 het men to 100 het women that's not as bad as what people have been telling me (1:4 or 1:5, not sure of that source) and the other figure 1:9 which really seems a bit off.

Overall I'd say NYC is a great place to be for dating, actually, just b/c there are so many opportunities...but this can be a drawback too. Everybody's looking for the next one to be better. It seems really quite competitive.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-2005
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 12:44pm

The more independent, secure, self-aware, self-successful and self-responsible you are - the lessyou're going to appeal to people "not like yourself" in terms of self-requirement, self-defined standards and self-generated efforts.

Alot of women are trying to be wined, dined, romanced, and pursued - while they're totally caught up in the lifestyle they've worked for, prioritize, and desire to have which is all about work, ethics, value oriented actions, and bond based on respect of character and integrity.

That doesn't really work. Most people aren't that "complete". They're either emotionally driven - or rationally driven. Emotionally driven people talk and act "in the moment only" - and they're not consistent or congruent nor should they be relied upon. Their lifestyle will reflect that reality - because people cannot succeed in any venue in life overmuch being "emotionally driven by what benefits or gratifies me now".

And some people that are "rationally prioritizing" have failed to develop their emotioally passionate componenent.

I think in your case, your new friend is considerably younger, he sees that you're rationally driven and success oriented. HE figures that you know there is nothing possible between you two "except sex and/or friendship"......and so he's not pursuing with you what he'd pursue or how he'd pursue with someone his own age. Think "Mrs. Robinson" and you get it.

But anything 'in extremis" is not balanced. If you're high maintenance, emotionally driven, financially indept - if you're hot and totally connected - you might have a plethora of people falling at your feet because of who your daddy is and waht you look like - to provide or fix your Jaguar.

If you're extremely successful, secure, and independently identified - people believe there is nothing you lack, and therefore anything you offer is without obligation ot them or else you'd state the obligation prior to offer, and that what you have is preferable to their status.....and so they have nothing to "offer" you in return anyway.

This might be an easier way to explain it. Obsession, compulsion, extremism and perfectionism - those are the traits of two very "different" in definition sets of universally identified types of people.

Addicts....and successes.

Addicts are simply doing wahtever feels good at this point in time, extremely, with an obsession on "feeling good all the time", and a compulsion to repeat this "way to feel good" until they've perfected "feeling good all the time" - that results in chemical addiction, and chaos and destruction in life. There's no goal focus or self-responsibility.

Successful people in conventional realm are simply using those traits with goals in sight. They're in perpetual pursuit of the next raise or advancement, they're always climbing the ladder in a multiude of venues or in only one specific area, and they're obsessed with perfection in the extreme percentage. They're termed "dedicated to excellence and succeeding at phenomenal rates" vs. "addict" however

So it's imperative to assess if what you're wanting - is realistic to expect from the person you want it from......not just "is it realistic to expect at all".

You're the common denominator in your life. No matter where you go there you are. The values, standards, and principles you utilize justify and entitle you to your actions, feelings, thoughts, decisions, words, ideas, and desires. Those same values determine character conscience, integrity and honor.

So situations don't "make you do what you do" - they're sought to allow you to do what you believe is right and your right - in light of your values, reasoning pattern, and goals.

You're bound to continue to attract the same types of people - using the same approach. Same man, different face, so to speak.

But simply to put on an act of being "helpless" or in need - is going to attract people that believe you cannot and SHOULD NOT do whatever they do not allow or provide as an option.

Think pendulum.....as long as it's swinging from side to side - it's got momentum but no balance. There's only two balance points on a pendulum. When it's totally stopped swinging at the bottom....or at the top. And if it's totally stopped because it went past the arc point at the top - it's going to come swinging hard and continue to swing in extremism.

You're trying to be "balanced" - so that you can get off the pendulum and on the ground.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

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Registered: 01-01-2006
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 1:49pm

Wow, thanks for your very thorough explanation.

The 'new guy'...my platonic friend...I like him and all, but I don't want to be in a relationship with him either. I really like him as a friend only, so I wasn't really deliberating over that.

I guess what's bothering me is the guys I'm dating...nothing ever seems to work out. This is my platonic friend's problem too, since he dates a lot, so I'm beginning to feel very discouraged, like there's no hope.

A better example might be the current guy I'm interested in, who's not emailing me back now. We went on a second date last Wednesday (5 days ago). I really like him!! I'm wondering how to apply your advice. Nothing obvious went wrong on our dates: we had great conversation, he suggested we go out again, he asked me what I was doing for NYE (I already had plans w/ a friend, as might be expected, 3 days before), he emailed me later and said he had fun on our second date, and I emailed him back. That was Friday. Haven't heard from him since. Just sitting back and not doing anything b/c I don't want to bug him, but I'm feeling like he's not as interested anymore.

I don't know if I really fall into the highly successful category. I do like my job a lot, but I definitely have a ways to go before I could be viewed as successful. And my income is low...I make about half of what my friends make. I'm just careful with my money so I can afford to rent a small studio in the city. But one thing's for sure...I'm very independent-spirited. I'm used to being very self-reliant.

I have difficulty finding people similar to me. I have done that Myers-Briggs test and I'm an INTJ (introvert, intuitive, thinking, judgemental), and the description fits me to a tee, even down to my choice of profession (scientist). INTJs comprise 1% of the population, BTW. I read that INTJ women go for INTJ guys, but INTJ guys prefer women that are more extroverted than themselves. So maybe INTJ women are doomed!!

I might be able to get some answers from this guy, actually. He really went out of his way to track me down for a first date, but I guess I managed to mess it up somehow. I will run into him eventually because there's a common interest group we both attend, which is how we met. He's a very expressive and sensitive guy...so I may even get a straight answer from him. But now's not the time to ask...I'll give it a couple of weeks...

Thanks again for your answer I'll read it again and try to glean some more wisdom from it. The part about addicts and successful people really rings true in this town. Boy do I know some highly successful "addicts"...I used to be this way but I made a conscious effort to put more balance into my life so it's not all work work work but work play work play work. But truthfully after 3 years on the Manhattan dating scene work work work is looking better and better.

And no Faye Wray acts for me...your answer and that of others has convinced me...there must be some other aspect of my personality that is lacking, or not lacking, whatever...

iVillage Member
Registered: 04-14-2003
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 2:09pm

The 1:9 ratio was a number that got tossed around in the news a few years back. One day when I have time I will find its source. The ratio means single, available for heterosexual dating. In metropolitan areas you will have a higher concentration of single available women than men because young single women tend to migrate to population centers for job opportunities. The ratio is the opposite in Alaska because there is more heavy labor job opportunities there.

Juju, if you are wondering where you are striking out with the men you might want to invest in a couple of sessions with a therapist. It might be how you present yourself on the first few dates that is holding you back. It might be something as simple as talking less and listening more to make a better first impression. I don't know so I can't make a judgement.

iVillage Member
Registered: 11-28-2005
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 2:21pm

This might help you out.

Dating is not the process by which you find a life partner, or form a relationship for a period of time.

Dating is all about in the moment fun, enjoyment, companionship, flirtation, sex if mutually agreed to, and conversation - at shared events by mutual desire/consent.

So dating is like interviewing for a job........lots of people interview as a "sport" that have no desire to take a different job than the one they've got (being single and thus only acountable to/responsible for/reliant on themselves). They date.....because they want fun, companionship, conversation, interaction for particular events, and to meet their own standards and needs. But they're not "dating" to find someone to share life with, or get exclusive with and thus in some way obligated/accountable to/for.

So lots of women don't get how ot date in the first place. They approach every date as if he's "potentially Mr. Right" - which has them attempting to evaluate intentions, motivations, and needs of someone who's character and values they do not know at all. That leads you to make projections and assumptions based on your own needs, expectations and association patterns - and then mistakenly act on them as facts, in some percentage.

So alot of people dating aren't pursuing anything except what exists at the time. And the phrase "date like a man' -actually might not offend you. It's relatively easy to example...and explains some of the gender confusion.

A man finds you physically attractive - asks you out. He expecting nothing of the date except for what he KNOWS to exist - you'll be physically attractive.

If you're charming, witty, flirtatious, intelligent, and attractive - it's a bonus and score proposition IF HE WAS LOOKING FOR MORE THAN EYE CANDY ON HIS ARM. He might not have been - he might have been looking for "diversion and distraction" (a less astute, intelligently challenging woman that is content with him winning stuffed animals at the fair for her while she touches his bicep in awe - and you go from there)....in which case you being the whole package is a negative, and despite your looks - you aren't what he wants and he won't seek more involvement.

If he's seeking more than just attractive looks - your intelligence and wit and humor is a bonus and score, and when he wants more interaction, flirtation, conversation, companioship - he'll ask you out on another date. (that's why there are no "rules" about calling and no callig, and timelines).

The first 6-9 months of any type of interaction is laced with infatuation (your attention/desire for me makes me feel so good about me, I can't get enough of your attention). That has us all graciously receiving any type of involvement, and doing our best to impress and please and keep the infatuation at high heat. So revel in the "feelings" of infatuation, while not mistaking those feelings for facts, goals, calls to action, tools of cognition, or that you're in a ratioal state of assessment regarding character and integrity. Enjoy it for what it is - don't make it what it's not.

But date like a man, summed up, is simply "expect" what you KNOW will exist - and enjoy what you didn't KNOW would exist, but are gratified to find there. Don't "expect" everything to go somewhere, and don't project that everybody wants the same things that you do - or manifests or interprets things in the same way as you.

That's why men don't attach to what isn't there - until it is present. And that's why dating for some women is so complicated, anxiety-ridden, and "rules driven", so that they seek to get "relationship/commitment" type activity and interaction in play - so that they can quit "worrying" about "if we'll form a relationship. That'l lead to hanging out and hooking up - but very few truly lasting relationships.

YOu also could be running ito the "timing" issue. And this is a reality based theory - amongst successful individuals. The way MOST of us are raised is in the following mindset, and society sends the message as well:

Boys: "you won't become what you don't make of yourself. You won't have what you don't proide for yourself."

Girls: "the two primary roles that identify you as being complete, secure, and mature are "mother and wife".

That's why "timing" is a relevant issue. Men based on the message they get wouldn't pursue anything but "dating" - without focus on shared intrests, goals nad values to ensure harmony in interaction...until in life "they are where they want to be". A relationship doesn't make you what you're not - it won't bring you anything that is conventionally defining or successful in their view. Most successful men I know don't consider even dating "to find a partner" until in thier beginning 30's, realizing they probably will not find someone that shares thier values, standards, goals, and definitions of great life and how to achieve it - until they're about 35 or 36. Realizing she's a bit younger as a rule, having children in the 30's is still a happening element.

Women however are looking for inclusion, cooperation and assistance ot fall into the conventional definition of "successful worth" - in fulfilling those two roles. As a rule they tend NOT to form interests, pursuits, or goals until at least partnership is in some way a reality. They don't want to get involved, pursuant of antying that would take them OUT of the realm of "meeting Mr. Right".

So what you've done is pursue a conventionally male field (rationally dominated vs. emotionally assessing and addressing)....and you've pursued success in it - because you possess traits that both genders possess - but you're applying them in what is generally "male" ways.

Men will find you easy to relate to at work, and at play...but find it hard to be attracted to you in terms of the romantic sense. You don't exhibit enough "I need you"........and you MIGHT not exhibit enough "I desire men"....two totally different things.

Men don't have to exhibit "I need you" to attract women (particularly needy women LOL) and it is "assumed" by most women that most men "desire all women and I am a woman and included the scope of your desire" - so that default is attributed to them - often by mistake. So it could easily be that you'd be very appealing to a slightly older man...than you would be someone your own age. Someone who is where they want to be professionally, personally, financially and materially in order to 'find a partner and settle down and have children" - and who would appreciate what it took of you by self-requirement, to achieve the status and positions that you have to date.

Being in a male dominated sport...and being competitive at their level and often beating them......I found myself where you are as well. And this might not explain it totally - but it'll probably get the point across. I was treated as an athletic equal in terms of a competitor - and still am out in competition and training. In the business aspect of our sport as far as gear purchases, selling, or training in general - I'm regarded as extremely expert and well-connected, highly ethical and principled. But what stopped me from changing my own flats on the car, and started getting those same guys who compete against me to come over there and do it "WITH" (not for me) is summed up with this statement.

"There's nothing worse than being beaten by a woman, in public, in front of your friends. And there's nothing better than helping a woman who looks like Venus, that has just whipped your butt, change her flat tire."

The second I had "expectations" of me to look, smell, and appear "female" by MY standards post competition......I had expectations of them to "treat me as a lady" (not just a woman) - and those gentlemen who love competing against me, and working with me, have never failed to meet my expectatios of them regarding their gentlemanly behavior post-race either.

You teach people how to treat you - by how you regard and treat yourself. If you're "all business" - they'll be all business. IF you're a delightful and intriguing combination of ausccessful, secure, mature, and rational woman that presents herself as a lady, adn conducts herself by ethical standards, with intelligence, and an attracive appearance, there's just not about anybody but a 'derelict" that you can't hold as a captive audience.

That said.....location does count. And if you're living in a place that has a high ratio of single women to single men....do realize you're working in a male dominated field is NOT the offset. It's unlikely that you'll date men in your field, they will not date you.
That's not practical business savvy.

Erin
quickblade14@hotmail.com

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Registered: 01-01-2006
Mon, 01-02-2006 - 2:37pm

I've already done years of relationship counseling, but it was for specific problems in a very strange relationship. Taught me a lot, and now I feel relatively enlightened compared to MANY of the guys I date.

But I never went to a therapist specifically for dating advice, first impressions, etc. I might try that. I don't really know how else to nail this one down. One of my girlfriends told me about a matchmaking service she was thinking of trying that not only provides dates but constructive advice. It's $$$$ though, so I need to start saving.

I've done those dating quizzes too and it seems I'm doing all the basic things right.

I definitely have never been accused of talking too much(!), (my friends would totally laugh) but I see what you mean, you are just using that as an example.

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